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Squashing Stereotypes in MK11

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
This topic has been on my mind for quite some time and has become more apparent to me after talking to Sonic in his live stream.
Does the character or the players fundies net that W?

There seems to be an awful lot of players who feel certain characters carry the player to victory and some characters hold you back. I happen to believe otherwise. Like Sonic said "if your footsies is good you can win with almost any character".
He showed this to his viewers and subscribe by playing both low to high level subscribers with multiple characters only using D4. He displayed unreal footsies keeping out several players including PG members that often make top 8's. He spaced so well they couldn't convert his did this with low to Top tier characters and explained for them to beat him they needed to work on their neutral because in a tournament he wouldn't be D4 ing them but converting for full combo and stated they needed to utilize wave dashing to put more fear into him to not allow him to think and move freely.
Sonic isn't the only one to state this. Recently VideoGamesYo well known for his top 4 placement with Shao Kahn said what he needed to do to make that character work was to strip him down to the basics and work on fundies only using his best moves to win neutral like s1/D4/F3/Shoulder and a few projectiles it was proper spacing and high level fundies that got him top 4 not the character.

I know there are some who would like to blame MU's or characters but honestly the majority of your loses are not caused by the character shutting down all of your options. Mostly you get that loss because you made mistakes. Obviously there are bad characters and MU's but we should always try to improve ourselves over writing it off because "That character is OP" or "My Character is Low Tier". If we carry that mentality we won't improve where we need to and will instead make excuses.


I'm sure many will disagree but that's fine. To each there own.
 
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Vslayer

I'm a gril
Moderator
Premium Supporter
Very good thread, I agree completely. If you’re using Kano let’s say and you’re using his spacing tools very well like his B4, B3 then you can still take the win. But these low tiers still have limited tools at their disposal and Kano is a weird example since he’s a really unsafe character and you essentially have to rely on reads.

That and being unpredictable and playing really fast will throw people off for sure no matter the character.

I also noticed in this game if you make people come to you they’ll be easier to whiff punish overall. Or they’ll attack when they shouldn’t really.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
Could've just said "stop bitching about top tiers git gud"
Well I just wanted to illustrate an example. Understandable there is a lot of salt going around when there is only one winner and always a loser.
When both players know the MU and are playing at a high level they are mostly playing the player not the character. I'm seeing players like foxy download his opponents and using basic fundies to enforce the meta "Strike Throw". Even though there are many other ways to play those characters the top players stick with strong fundies and simplistic strategies to get that win. It doesn't get more basic than F4/Throw into KB (Foxy) to win in semi finals with amazing spacing and MU awareness.

I didn't make this thread to insult anyone or tell them to Level Up/GetGud. I did it to see other peoples views, mindsets and hope it will get some players to drop bad habits/mindests and hit the lab.
Video Gamez Yo
Was thinking of dropping Shao multiple times for months wondering if the character was just bad or if he was playing him bad. The answer was that he was trying to use all of Shaos bad moves and making it way to complicated. In the end he went back to the basics and made top 8. Eliminating Foxy and many other top 20 players and made 4th with Shao only using Jax a hand full of times.
If you want to see the interview its on K&M channel:
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
Very good thread, I agree completely. If you’re using Kano let’s say and you’re using his spacing tools very well like his B4, B3 then you can still take the win. But these low tiers still have limited tools at their disposal and Kano is a weird example since he’s a really unsafe character and you essentially have to rely on reads.

That and being unpredictable and playing really fast will throw people off for sure no matter the character.

I also noticed in this game if you make people come to you they’ll be easier to whiff punish overall. Or they’ll attack when they shouldn’t really.
Kano is a weird example maybe even the exception. He is definitely a struggling character that may have some effective tools but many others do what he does but better and then some. As it stands I can win with any character just some are harder than others.
I was more speaking of mid tier characters and up. I've personally made excuses with characters like Kitana, Frost, Kotal and D'Vorah in the past only to realize I wasn't using them correctly or adapting their tools to the current Strike Throw meta. I basically use every character now and my eyes have been opened to the fact every character plays Strike Throw, some better than others. Some have better Tools to get the job done like -2 staggers, +4 frame traps, 50/50's etc but every character has a throw and buttons or a form of guess.

I like the odd ball variations like: Cetrion -Force of Nature, Liu Kang - Wu Shi Legend, Cassie - Yaas Queen, Nightwolf - Ancestrial Gift, Shang - Spellmaster
I'm finding using the unwanted variations has improved my fundamentals one way or another.
 

SOULWARRIOR 71K

XBL: SOULWARRIOR 71K PSN: SOULWARRIOR71K
The one thing I really don’t understand is that in one breath people tell you if you want to win, basically play simple and lame (and not to use most of your moveset). But in the same breath will complain about not have more variations. Lol.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

WHERE IS MY SHADOW
Premium Supporter
Excellent post and subject.
Happy to see Fox doing what he does to keep everyone learning.

That being said, this is the peak of irony.
We're told "there shouldn't be customs in tournaments, everyone will just flock to the best builds and it'll get stale," so we don't get to see the fully fleshed out game on a competitive level...while at the same time, the best player there is and other top tier players are outright saying your best bet is to just focus on what makes your character good and not overcomplicate things.
Which is 100% the right thing to do...but I have to laugh a little bit.
 
Videogamesyo had some of the best movement I have ever seen to date. Dude was moving like a mashima in Tekken 7.

Honestly, I think we as a community need to really take a hard look in the mirror, because a lot of people aren't utilizing movement and normals to their capability as good as they think, myself included. Step your movement and whiff punishing game up fellas!!!!
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
Videogamesyo had some of the best movement I have ever seen to date. Dude was moving like a mashima in Tekken 7.

Honestly, I think we as a community need to really take a hard look in the mirror, because a lot of people aren't utilizing movement and normals to their capability as good as they think, myself included. Step your movement and whiff punishing game up fellas!!!!
HIs wave dashing with jax was kinda sick, with that movement and spacing he could turn jaxs shortest range normals into footsie tools.
 

stokedAF

casual kahnage
I’m hyped for videogamezyo. I’ve been following him since he started and he’s blowing up quick. He just needs some sponsors to get to the tourneys in the states.
 
This topic has been on my mind for quite some time and has become more apparent to me after talking to Sonic in his live stream.
Does the character or the players fundies net that W?

There seems to be an awful lot of players who feel certain characters carry the player to victory and some characters hold you back. I happen to believe otherwise. Like Sonic said "if your footsies is good you can win with almost any character".
He showed this to his viewers and subscribe by playing both low to high level subscribers with multiple characters only using D4. He displayed unreal footsies keeping out several players including PG members that often make top 8's. He spaced so well they couldn't convert his did this with low to Top tier characters and explained for them to beat him they needed to work on their neutral because in a tournament he wouldn't be D4 ing them but converting for full combo and stated they needed to utilize wave dashing to put more fear into him to not allow him to think and move freely.
Sonic isn't the only one to state this. Recently VideoGamesYo well known for his top 4 placement with Shao Kahn said what he needed to do to make that character work was to strip him down to the basics and work on fundies only using his best moves to win neutral like s1/D4/F3/Shoulder and a few projectiles it was proper spacing and high level fundies that got him top 4 not the character.

I know there are some who would like to blame MU's or characters but honestly the majority of your loses are not caused by the character shutting down all of your options. Mostly you get that loss because you made mistakes. Obviously there are bad characters and MU's but we should always try to improve ourselves over writing it off because "That character is OP" or "My Character is Low Tier". If we carry that mentality we won't improve where we need to and will instead make excuses.

I'm sure many will disagree but that's fine. To each there own.
Where is this video? I can’t find it on twitch
 

Wigy

There it is...
Let's not sell bills.

Just because there's areas everyone can improve doesn't mean some characters arent potato.

The difference between videosgamesyo vs your normal Khan and rewind vs a normal Kang is quite obvious.

Some characters don't need mastery of wave dashing or unreal footsies to beat a player who's of equal skill.

TL/DR

For your average player, characters like Liu Kang will carry you unless you play someone outright better than you. At the highest level he isn't a free win. Kang players ruining online so you'll just have to hold the salt from everyone.
 
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CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
1) This is what I really like about MK11. I know some people complain that the characters’ metas are “simple”; but they were kept a bit simpler so that at a fundamental level (with a couple of exceptions) almost everybody is playing the same game, just in different ways. And that really puts the responsibility on you to level up, strengthen your fundamentals, and become a better player, rather than just gimmicking people out by heaping tech on them. It’s a double-edged sword, but I really love the emphasis on neutral and the simple things in this game.

2) Does anyone have this video? I’d love to see what Sonic was demonstrating.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
Where is this video? I can’t find it on twitch
Does anyone have this video? I’d love to see what Sonic was demonstrating

Here is the video Sonic was referring to the stream he was teaching including UYU| Deoxys

Here is the tweet of him acknowledging lack of footsie:


Looking for the video:

I think its this one at 2:20
Check out this video "Helping Out Subs in Mk11 | !tierlist" http://www.twitch.tv/zsonicfox/v/470524442?sr=a&t=8437s

It could be a different one because Sonic doesn't label his right just random names and they are 8 hours long on his twitch. It was for sure one of the ones B4 the charity stream.

If you can find it you will know because he played several matches just D4 ing them and walking back and every time they tried getting in he just staggered them out with D4 and told them to try again. He would say to a Nightwolf player the rules where he couldn't use his shoulder and Sonic could only use his D4. Then explained after effectively keeping out everyone with Cassie D4 that they needed to watch the video posted above and work on their neutral.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I think its this one at 2:20
Check out this video "Helping Out Subs in Mk11 | !tierlist" http://www.twitch.tv/zsonicfox/v/470524442?sr=a&t=8437s

It could be a different one because Sonic doesn't label his right just random names and they are 8 hours long on his twitch. It was for sure one of the ones B4 the charity stream.

If you can find it you will know because he played several matches just D4 ing them and walking back and every time they tried getting in he just staggered them out with D4 and told them to try again. He would say to a Nightwolf player the rules where he couldn't use his shoulder and Sonic could only use his D4. Then explained after effectively keeping out everyone with Cassie D4 that they needed to watch the video posted above and work on their neutral.
Yeah I don't think it's that one.. That whole video is just hours of him playing people w/ Dvorah in regular sets.

But I'm curious to find the one you were talking about.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
Yeah I don't think it's that one.. That whole video is just hours of him playing people w/ Dvorah in regular sets.

But I'm curious to find the one you were talking about.
I tHiNk its hidden to subscribers only. He has high level quality tutorials only viewable to Subs and helps his Subscribers level up in his streams. He plays sets with them and tells them where to improve. Unfortunately I'm on XB1 and not Subbed to his Twitch. But if you find the video somehow post it here and tag me.
What he showed us in that stream changed my view on the meta and game drastically.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
The one thing I really don’t understand is that in one breath people tell you if you want to win, basically play simple and lame (and not to use most of your moveset). But in the same breath will complain about not have more variations. Lol.
What VGY was saying in the video was about Shao Kahn a character that has a pretty bad moveset, most if his buttons are highs and others very unsafe.
He was saying that character specifically needed to be used bare bones to be effective but characters like Liu Kang/Geras/Sonya/Cassie/Nightwolf/Shang/Jax/Jacqui benefit from utilizing all of their tools and are much more effective, hard to read & deal with than using just a few strong tools.
 

GLoRToR

Have fun mashing d1, liars and hypocrites.
It's really your skill killing you, not the 45% krushing blows into another 45% damage into 50/50 throw into more krushing blow. While your character does 20% at best off of a nonfunctional 28f overhead that my grandmother can literally block. I tested it with her just so that I don't make an inaccurate statement. My grandmother does indeed react flawlessly to 28f.
It's your skill and game balance is fine. You opened up my eye. How did I not see the truth so far.

#jadeisfine
#samefineasliukang
 

NothingPersonal

Are you not entertained!?
Both are important. Sonic with Cassie will most likely beat anyone else playing Cassie, and Sonic with Kotal will most likely have a way less win streak than himself with Cassie. So both player skill and tiers are important. But for the non-Sonic talents I have several suggestions if you're goal is to win:
  1. You lose badly no matter the character - lab more, be patient and analyze your own game. Or drop the game and stop raging, you'll have better health.
  2. You're a character loyalist, but are in the same position as above - drop your char, pick a high tier or stop bitching.
Tl;dr git gud, git quiet or git out.
 
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What VGY was saying in the video was about Shao Kahn a character that has a pretty bad moveset, most if his buttons are highs and others very unsafe.
He was saying that character specifically needed to be used bare bones to be effective but characters like Liu Kang/Geras/Sonya/Cassie/Nightwolf/Shang/Jax/Jacqui benefit from utilizing all of their tools and are much more effective, hard to read & deal with than using just a few strong tools.
So , if i understand correctly , if u want to play a low tier character ul have to ignore 90% of his moves while top tier dont have to . If thats the case , that forces me to ask a rly simple question : Why the hell do they even have those moves if they are unusable? Why animate them ? When i bought mk 11 , i wanted to play mk not SF high lvl 1 button simulator.
 

big j gleez

Mains: Not Sure Right Now ...
I think it is naive to say there aren't characters that help cover up some individual's lack of fundamentals and help their bad play.

BUT

Everyone can use any character in the game. No one is forcing anyone to play a low tier character. That is why I never understood why people complain so much and make excuses for their losses based off of "Well I play low tier" or "They play X character so my loss doesn't count". That kind of mind set is trash.

There will always be high tier and lower tier characters in fighting games. You have to adapt and choose the characters that fit your style and allows you to be successful. Scorpion is my favorite MK character of all time but I don't feel he gives me the best chance to be successful. I don't cry all day for Scorpion buffs or complain about his design. I also don't continue to use the character and make excuses for losing. I adapt, change my game plan and use characters that fit me better. If people spent less time complaining about tiers and buffs and spent that time labbing and getting better we would all be in a better spot.
 

OzzFoxx

Hardcore gaming poser.
Premium Supporter
This thread title is misleading, please change. I was excited when I first saw it that I’d finally be able to rant about my desire to see a really fat female character join the cast. Kinda like earthquake from samurai showdown, but y’know with long hair. (I had to replace what I actually wrote w long hair)
 

Gaxkang

Noob
There are obviously many character balance issues in the game, and ones that exist in big ways. How Krushing Blows and Fatal Blows ar ae quick way to see this didn't get much consideration by NRS.

Can you still take a lesser character and beat a better character? Sure. But you will have to work harder, and need some luck too.

If you're going online you will need a lot more luck and even then that might not be enough. The online is truly bad.

Right now I am probably best with Kano despite him being considered a lesser character...I'd be better with him in ranked if I could use my preferred custom variation too. I also like his b4 since it's a normal that doesn't feel so stubby.
I haven't felt the desire to play the cheaper characters online....feels too cheap.
Taking Shao Kahn online by contrast...you are gonna feel that one, it is tough going.

NRS could rectify things by tweaking the game into something more than it is right now, but I don't expect they will. Things like having more punishment on block in the game instead of emphasizing offense (and guesses) and whiff punishes, fixing hitbox/hurtboxes even if it's their brand, and other issues.