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Sonya is a top 3 character

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
I was going to have someone play you online, refer him over to you so you two can do a set of matches. I'll ask him about it.
I play against a really good Freddy offline here. I know how great he can be and see a lot of untapped potential in the character.

Edit: Were going to see the meta game shift around which means the game is very healthy. Were about to exit the Sonya, Cage, Jax stage due to Kenshi's, Freddy, Kabal which means stuff like Sektor, Kung Lao, Raiden will be flavor of the month soon. It's a healthy movement that we don't often see in fighting games, nerf requests just show frustration with match ups.

Eventually people should consider picking up an alternate character to cover main character weaknesses.
 

Death

Noob
Well, I think zoning is still relevant, but it is not the dominant strategy that some players make it out to be. Projectiles are best used for meter building. If you only zone, you will corner yourself and die (see Kabal vs Jax). I believe the game revolves around footsies and rushdown at the highest level of play.

Death, I will test. I find it hard to believe, though, because canceled d+4s give ridiculous advantage on block.
Yes i do know 100% armor can but the gap to do it is fairly tight. Not 100% sure on blocked D+4 MS F+1. I just remembered in the past opponents jumping out of it but that could of just been on block strings. On block strings if you go low you have to do MS B+4.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Don't ignore the rest of the dudes post because he stated one thing incorrectly. Regardless you know for sure the d4 xx ms f1 mix up is low, so she has 3 blocked hits and then a basic mind game.

This is the only scenario where Sonya can gain frame advantage, which isn't game breaking... Multiple characters do the same thing.
I am not replying to dumb generic statements like "dive kick is punishable" and "CW is whiff punishable". That is like saying Kabal's dash is punishable, so it must be a bad move.

Multiple characters can force a +1 block advantage from a long range poke and build more than half a bar? Really? Who?
 

Death

Noob
Zoning is irrelevent but theres still a certain characters out there that can win at high level just off zoning alone. I think only freddy and kenshi can do that.

Like what 16bit said, I agree with completely. Kitana Mileena. Characters like that just cant depend on zoning. Their zoning isnt good enough to win at high level.
 

RTM2004

Revenant Jade
Sektor forums was all complaining about the holes of the character. It wasn't until iKizzle (sp?) showed at Final Round what Sektor is truly capable of. I don't think he is Top 10, possible right outside #12 or #13. Strong zoning character, stops rushdown with his Flamethrower, tons of pressure tools. Actually last summer FOREVER KING played Sektor in a match and that was the only time I saw how good Sektor truly is. The typical Sektor online fishes for Teleport Uppercut combo opportunities, zone and fish combos from your jumps. Sektor is the next character buzz.
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
Sektor forums was all complaining about the holes of the character. It wasn't until iKizzle (sp?) showed at Final Round what Sektor is truly capable of. I don't think he is Top 10, possible right outside #12 or #13. Strong zoning character, stops rushdown with his Flamethrower, tons of pressure tools. Actually last summer FOREVER KING played Sektor in a match and that was the only time I saw how good Sektor truly is. The typical Sektor online fishes for Teleport Uppercut combo opportunities, zone and fish combos from your jumps. Sektor is the next character buzz.
I'm not trying to derail the thread but you and I both know that Sektor and Sonya should not be in the same sentence together. If Sektor had a practically neutral on block launcher, had armor, actual mixups (u3 4 is very obvious), didn't require meter to do actual damage and didn't have more holes in his strings than swiss cheese then maybe they'd be comparable but no...just no. I respect Sektor players, but if he was more popular, you'd see those strings being blown up.
 

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
I am not replying to dumb generic statements like "dive kick is punishable" and "CW is whiff punishable". That is like saying Kabal's dash is punishable, so it must be a bad move.

Multiple characters can force a +1 block advantage from a long range poke and build more than half a bar? Really? Who?
Even though they are valid statements, you're just going to plug your ears and say "I'm not listening"?

It takes 12 blocked hits to build a bar, 4 is a 3rd. There are characters in this game that build a bar for free.

In all honesty I think Nightmare stance is the superior stance in the game. Use it more. I think they should allow all characters to do specials out of a stance as well as lower hurtboxes to a mileena d4 level.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Freddy: Zone until you corner yourself. When cornered, EX Teleport your happy ass out of the corner. Win.
Noob: throw tackles and slides (full screen 50/50 mix up). When the opponent jumps, shadow upkick into tackle.

How can Sonya possibly fight this cheapness, guys? It must be a bad match up.
 

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
Noob: throw tackles and slides (full screen 50/50 mix up). When the opponent jumps, shadow upkick into tackle.

How can Sonya possibly fight this cheapness, guys? It must be a bad match up.
Stop blaming your inadequacies as a player on imbalances with a game. I swear you post a Foxy-esque opinion weekly and stamp REO's name on it for good measure.
 

RTM2004

Revenant Jade
I'm not trying to derail the thread but you and I both know that Sektor and Sonya should not be in the same sentence together. If Sektor had a practically neutral on block launcher, had armor, actual mixups (u3 4 is very obvious), didn't require meter to do actual damage and didn't have more holes in his strings than swiss cheese then maybe they'd be comparable but no...just no. I respect Sektor players, but if he was more popular, you'd see those strings being blown up.
Sektor if played right has tons of pressure tools. Maybe not like Sonya's high/low game. Sektor's Ex Teleport Punch Uppercut is safe on block and his Missiles recover very fast. Isn't 1,2,B1 0 on block too? Sektor really doesn't need armor, he can fall back on his zoning which is another strong point in this character. Sonya is lethal up close but her zoning is mediocre, slow Ring start up.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
In all honesty I think Nightmare stance is the superior stance in the game. Use it more. I think they should allow all characters to do specials out of a stance as well as lower hurtboxes to a mileena d4 level.
I wish NMS did lower Freddy's hitbox like Mileena's d+4 does.

And NMS is the best stance in the game? LOL. Every sensible person would take Sonya's MS over Freddy's NMS.

The more you post the more you show me you know very little about either character.
 

RTM2004

Revenant Jade
Noob: throw tackles and slides (full screen 50/50 mix up). When the opponent jumps, shadow upkick into tackle.

How can Sonya possibly fight this cheapness, guys? It must be a bad match up.
It's an annoying match up but it's not a bad match up. Lead Noob Saibot towards the corner, how is he going to get out of there without risk? Teleport can be baited, get punished by a Dive Kick combo. AA options. Ex Cartwheel through Noob's zoning and lock him down. Noob Saibot doesn't deliver high damage output aside from the corner more than likely he's the one being cornered. Her Energy Ring can put him in check but she won't win the zoning war, slow start up to begin with so it will be hard to keep up besides Noob Saibot has more room for making mistakes and errors while she can close in space.
 

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
I wish NMS did lower Freddy's hitbox like Mileena's d+4 does.

And NMS is the best stance in the game? LOL. Every sensible person would take Sonya's MS over Freddy's NMS.

The more you post the more you show me you know very little about either character.
Implement Nightmare stance into your game play correctly and you will seriously level up as a player. Watch WonderChef play, hes set the bar and hes going to continue to get so much better.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Stop blaming your inadequacies as a player on imbalances with a game. I swear you post a Foxy-esque opinion weekly and stamp REO's name on it for good measure.
Oh, the irony!

This is coming from a guy who trashes Cage and Sonya every chance he gets.

Have you ever considered that there may be players who can fight zoning characters well with Cage and Sonya because they are competent unlike you?
 

RTM2004

Revenant Jade
And NMS is the best stance in the game? LOL. Every sensible person would take Sonya's MS over Freddy's NMS.
Both the Nightmare Stance and the Miltary Stance are great, combo starters, overhead, high, low mix-ups.
Freddy's Nightmare Stance lowers his hitbox while Sonya's Military Stance does not.

Either way, both are really good if the player executes the stance as part of their game plan.
 

Sao87

@thedigitaldojo
Oh, the irony!

This is coming from a guy who trashes Cage and Sonya every chance he gets.

Have you ever considered that there may be players who can fight zoning characters well with Cage and Sonya because they are competent unlike you?
I don't trash Sonya, I think shes fundamentally solid and a great main character. I just don't agree with people who over rate her.

As far as Cage goes, I just don't feel like he's a great character main in tournaments. I'd definitely bust him out as a counter pick character but as a main character he is to much of a liability.
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
Sektor if played right has tons of pressure tools. Maybe not like Sonya's high/low game. Sektor's Ex Teleport Punch Uppercut is safe on block and his Missiles recover very fast. Isn't 1,2,B1 0 on block too? Sektor really doesn't need armor, he can fall back on his zoning which is another strong point in this character. Sonya is lethal up close but her zoning is mediocre, slow Ring start up.
Sektor's EX TU is -7 on block. While the move itself is iffy on block due to the transition from block to neutral (since you're unable to simply crouch it IE Scorpion's EX TP), it's horribly punishable on wakeup on it's starting frames and he gets knocked out of it constantly, I can assure you. Sonya, for instance, renders all of his wakeups useless with a well timed d4 on knockdown - d4 will either negate EX TU due to the lowered hitbox or hit the EX TU in the starting frames and give Sonya a D4~cartwheel dash 1 dash 112 MSF1 opportunity for 29%. Sektor's 12b1 is neutral on block, however, 1 and 2 (low percentage of 2 connecting if you're standing directly on top of them on a medium hitbox character) will whiff high giving you plenty of time to sufficiently punish him.

I'm sure Sektor's whiffing was not intentional, but none the less, it's there.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
I'm looking at Tom's matchup chart, and tbh, there's not really a good argument as to why she shouldn't be where she is, which is a very solid 9th place.

It can be irrelevant at the highest levels, but the reality is that Sonya is a character who doesn't really have good ways to deal with zoning. She has mostly what everyone else has: dash and block. Her arch kick can be used (Although I highly doubt a lot of people are doing this on reaction) and EX cartwheel. Now even compared to Johnny Cage and Jax, characters who are known to have a similar overwhelming offense, this does not really take care of projectiles quite as well since it only covers less than a quarter screen (It makes up for that by being a better reversal than EX Shadow Kick or Dash Punch respectively, however).

I would argue that she is slightly better at dealing with projectiles than Johnny Cage, but only barely. Johnny Cage can be zoned out incredibly easy, and if you think about it, Sonya can as well. She has very few answers to IaGB stuff, and up close it's still a matter of picking your armored spot in a particularly strong offense. It's probably not the borderline 7-3 Tom has it, but clearly there are very few spots where Sonya has the advantage.

Moving down, she clearly loses to Kenshi, no doubt. Freddy is arguably a little more fair, although I still can't rightly say it's in Sonya's favor. Freddy, as I believe has been mentioned above, has really good corner escape tactics that is normally the issue with most zoning characters. Smoke is another character who can run from Sonya once he takes a life lead and doesn't have to deal with her projectile at all. Even Noob Saibot, who is merely mid-tier, has moves that are still particularly hard on Sonya as she has to just contend with a wall of projectiles and then up close he has a very solid special to swat her away. I'm not so sure about Skarlett, Reptile or Ermac beating her, but I don't have much experience with them so I can't really comment.

The point of this post is to say that even though I would generally agree that there are very few types of zoning that are viable at the highest levels, there are still some characters who are quite susceptible to the basic zoning that isn't so effective against the higher tiered characters, and Sonya is one of them. As long as that is true, and she loses those matchups, there's no way you can really effectively say that she is number 1 or 2 or whatever. This reminds me of how Johnny Cage is feared because of inexperience, and Sonya is the same way. Now granted, Sonya is a much better character than Cage, but there's still an aura of mystery for a few scenes that makes her appear much much better than she is...which again, is not to say she's bad (Top 10 is not bad lol) but she's not the greatest character in the game. Not by a longshot, logic kind of defeats that idea after so long.
 

Somberness

Lights
Armor can interrupt it. I also think when you blocked the D+4 MS F+1 can be jumped out of.
Not if you do it fast/close enough.
Don't ignore the rest of the dudes post because he stated one thing incorrectly. Regardless you know for sure the d4 xx ms f1 mix up is low, so she has 3 blocked hits and then a basic mind game.

This is the only scenario where Sonya can gain frame advantage, which isn't game breaking... Multiple characters do the same thing.
This is wrong, military stance cancel can give more advantage than that move. Down 4~MSC on block is +5, for example. Used to be +15 when the game came out. :eek: