Someone please tell me how NW is not a superior Jax

[Shadowfire]

This is partly in response to the current "Jax is top tier" Theory Fighter bandwagon, and partly because I genuinely want to know.

How is Nightwolf not basically just a better version of Jax?

• He has better/more variety in blockstrings.
• He has a better projectile that does large damage and significantly staggers on the EX version.
• He has a better unblockable that doesn't require you to guess on position, doesn't require your feet to be on the ground, is faster, can be set up into in more ways, and can be combo'd out of with meter.
• His shoulder charge is comparable to a dash punch with a better hit box, except the EX version also goes farther, is faster, and is not as easily punished by crouching (in fact it's an overhead).
• He's better at anti-zoning, between his shoulder charge and the fact he can reflect/absorb.
• He does more combo damage both with and without meter, midscreen and in the corner (NW also has a reset), AA or grounded.
• His main interrupts leave the opponent in a much more controllable position.
• His air grab is not nearly as picky.

The only advantages I've ever found with Jax is that dash jab AA combos are slightly easier than NW's AA combos, and the fact that Jax has an air throw.

I'm guessing this is why there are way more Nightwolf players than Jax players, but I'm interested in getting your opinions.

 

[Noob Saibot]

Nightwolf's alternate outfit automatically puts him at a lower tier.

Jax's American Flag Snuggie (AFS) automatically puts him at a higher tier.

But seriously, I don't know. Hope this helps.

 

[Karnage]

This is partly in response to the current "Jax is top tier" Theory Fighter bandwagon, and partly because I genuinely want to know.

How is Nightwolf not basically just a better version of Jax?

• He has better/more variety in blockstrings.
• He has a better projectile that does large damage and significantly staggers on the EX version.
• He has a better unblockable that doesn't require you to guess on position, doesn't require your feet to be on the ground, is faster, can be set up into in more ways, and can be combo'd out of with meter.
• His shoulder charge is comparable to a dash punch with a better hit box, except the EX version also goes farther, is faster, and is not as easily punished by crouching (in fact it's an overhead).
• He's better at anti-zoning, between his shoulder charge and the fact he can reflect/absorb.
• He does more combo damage both with and without meter, midscreen and in the corner (NW also has a reset), AA or grounded.
• His main interrupts leave the opponent in a much more controllable position.
• His air grab is not nearly as picky.

The only advantages I've ever found with Jax is that dash jab AA combos are slightly easier than NW's AA combos, and the fact that Jax has an air throw.

I'm guessing this is why there are way more Nightwolf players than Jax players, but I'm interested in getting your opinions.

I think Jax has wayyy better mixups, nightwolf doesnt have any really, theres not really any need for anyone to block low with NW unless for the pokes which do minor damage anyway. And Jax, from what i see definitely has better control of airspace, hatchet is slow and has to be predicted

 

[Slego]

Jax has Low/Mid pressure strings and mixups, great EX frames, better AA, An unbreakable meter dump for damage, corner combos that will last as long as you have meter, etc, etc.

You can be a negative nancy about any char.

 

[rev0lver]

Wait, those are your only thoughts about Jax's advantages?......

Have you ever been put in the corner against Jax?

 

[Shadowfire]

Jax has Low/Mid pressure strings and mixups, great EX frames, better AA, An unbreakable meter dump for damage, corner combos that will last as long as you have meter, etc, etc.

You can be a negative nancy about any char.

What's the unbreakable meter dump? Also what are his mid pressure strings? All his overheads can be blocked on reaction.

Wait, those are your only thoughts about Jax's advantages?......

Have you ever been put in the corner against Jax?

Jax has a good corner combo, that's the extent of his corner "pressure". I know Jax pretty well, so being put in the corner by him isn't nearly as scary to me since I know his gimmicks.

Nightwolf has many good corner combos.

I'm not being a negative nancy. I like Jax. I just don't see how he isn't objectively worse compared to other characters who fill the same role.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Jax has a low starter, nitwolf doesn't. Jax gets more damage in the corner than nightwolf...70% vs 46% guaranteed. Jax actually has the better projectile. Lightning is still slower than dirt...at least jax can cancel out of his.

They are completely different charters...virtually zero similarities other than dash punch and shoulder

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Mid screen nightwolf is the better character with higher damage and better zoning...but so different.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

That whole low starter arguement is pretty weak, so what if Jax has a low starter, block low instead? His overheads are slow enough as it is. If you are quick enough you can jab him out of his overhead smash with a standing 1 and combo him. Unless he does 21 Overhead he can always be jabbed out

 

[Nevrosis]

Being able to dash cancel his pound makes Jax's baiting game a bit superior to Nightwolf IMO. Nightwolf can't cancel anything, so what you see is what you get basically.

Low starters are extremely useful in alot of situations. Most of the time, even if slow, a low starter will make your character's high hitbox harder to reach because he'll lean back to hit with his foot (assuming most low-starters use feet). It gives you a big advantage on your opponent if you can condition him to block high early in the match. Also Jax's air grab = win.

The only similarities I can see between the two characters are the fact that they have an unblockable fullscreen launcher and a special move that has about the same range and speed (dash). Also both have the same uppercut. However, Nightwolf's 122 is faster than any of Jax's normal strings.

IMO both characters are pretty even. We'd have to get CD Jr to spend as much time with Nightwolf as he did with Jax and see the results

By the way Shadowfire you mention in your first post that Nightwolf's EX Shoulder Dash isn't as easy to punish by crouching. It's EXTREMELY easy tp punish. After the first hit, you can uppercut or grab Nightwolf before his overhead has a chance to get you.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

That whole low starter arguement is pretty weak, so what if Jax has a low starter, block low instead? His overheads are slow enough as it is. If you are quick enough you can jab him out of his overhead smash with a standing 1 and combo him. Unless he does 21 Overhead he can always be jabbed out

.
Saying a low starter doesn't matter is ignorant. Lol. Low starters do a number of things high starters don't. Let me share:
1)they hit low
2)they many times can go over low pokes
3)many times they go under high attacks and even some spec mid attacks
4)allow for mix ups beyond pokes because they lead to combos
5)they hit low

You see foxy, this game isn't about blocking low or high. So if a character has a low starter, it gives them tons of opportunities other character don't have given the right situation. I know your smart so don't say dumb things.

 

[N0rdicNinja]

His shoulder charge is comparable to a dash punch with a better hit box, except the EX version also goes farther, is faster, and is not as easily punished by crouching (in fact it's an overhead).

Just wanted to chime in on this one, a competent opponent can easily uppercut you out of an EX Shoulder. A lot of players will instinctively duck without blocking as they approach Nightwolf, and most (decent) players are trained enough to know as soon as you whiff with the should to uppercut. Well they can use the exact same timing they do with the normal shoulder to uppercut you out of the EX version. The armor on EX shoulder only lasts up until the first hit, between the initial whiff and the overhead there is enough time to uppercut. I see it happen all the time, most players do it without even thinking because they can use the exact same timing as they do with the normal version.

 

[Shadowfire]

By the way Shadowfire you mention in your first post that Nightwolf's EX Shoulder Dash isn't as easy to punish by crouching. It's EXTREMELY easy tp punish. After the first hit, you can uppercut or grab Nightwolf before his overhead has a chance to get you.

I actually didn't know that. Are you sure about throws? It certainly doesn't look like there's room for a cozy 10 frame punish.

.
Saying a low starter doesn't matter is ignorant. Lol. Low starters do a number of things high starters don't. Let me share:
1)they hit low
2)they many times can go over low pokes
3)many times they go under high attacks and even some spec mid attacks
4)allow for mix ups beyond pokes because they lead to combos
5)they hit low

Number 1/5 is the only one on that list that applies to Jax.

 

[16 Bit]

Forget throw, you get full combo punish after ducking EX shoulder. You don't even need fast jabs, Kitana can blow him up with 2,1~lift.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Yup...throw and uppercut...and a full combo. That is one of the main reasons NW is not higher tier in this game...

To all you who think NW's shoulder is safe...watch a match where every ducked shoulder turns out to be 30-40% or more. It will really hurt your pride. That's how Chris G beat my NW at impact clash. Watch the vid. And what's worse is that ANY character in the game can punish it. It's universal.

 

[DanX4]

Wait, so you're saying you can actually do all of that before the second hit of EX shoulder hits? Wow, didn't know that.

 

[Shadowfire]

I'll have to test this. I always assumed the active frames were such that you couldn't safely stand up between the hits, which would be the only way to get a combo punish.

 

[shura30]

[*]His shoulder charge is comparable to a dash punch with a better hit box, except the EX version also goes farther, is faster, and is not as easily punished by crouching (in fact it's an overhead).

only the second hit is an overhead, there's enough room for an uppercut between the two hits

 

[McNasty]

For me it seems like jax has faster and more reliable pokes and anti air. Better projectile, more access to mind games due to ground pound cancel. He also has decent frame traps to stay on an opponent where nightwolf really has to work to stay on top pressure wise.