Tech Sinestro Vortex with and without Trait

[Under_The_Mayo]

I just noticed, some of the fake cross-ups don't seem to work at all on Killer Frost and possibly other small characters like her. Either that or you have to time the ender differently on her. I'm not sure yet.

And as I suspected, 22 xx Shackles, NJ2 doesn't allow any ambiguity which is sad. So the setups starting with NJ2 into 1b23/223 will only work with 111 xx Shackles, but thankfully those are the weakest setups. And you can still use 22 xx Shackles for NJ2,b13 and b3.

Yaaay! Meow.

Also, the second half confuses me. If you confirm 22 into Shackles, what exactly should be the followup?

 

[legion666]

I love it!I love it.Iloveit!
Wait is a real cross up with trait hitting them in front and you crossing them up pretty much unblockable???????

 

[prospic]

Maybe u should do j2 trait 3 to be Safe. If you hit confirm 3xx to df1 xxtrait to shakles to reset them. This what I do and its very safe.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I love it!I love it.Iloveit!
Wait is a real cross up with trait hitting them in front and you crossing them up pretty much unblockable???????

It looks more like those hits are happening at different times in a small window. So they`d have to block them both individually. But then if they`re waiting to block the trait first before switching to block the crossup, and you don`t fire the trait, they won`t block the crossup cause they`re waiting for the trait first.

 

[Wemfs]

Vulcan strikes again. Lex Luthor is next right?

 

[legion666]

It looks more like those hits are happening at different times in a small window. So they`d have to block them both individually. But then if they`re waiting to block the trait first before switching to block the crossup, and you don`t fire the trait, they won`t block the crossup cause they`re waiting for the trait first.

Oh, thank! But do you think it is possible to make that window so small that its impossible to react and block?

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Yaaay! Meow.

Also, the second half confuses me. If you confirm 22 into Shackles, what exactly should be the followup?

That's what I was going to get into later and I wanted to re-upload my vids but I got front page'd before I could even edit anything lol.

Ok, to clear out some confusion. Here are the possible follow ups for each spacing (the green ones can be made ambiguous without trait):


22 xx Shackles:

• b3, early fj2, walk, 1b23
• nj2, b13, dash, 223
• b3, fj3, INT
• b3, fj2, b2, d3
• nj2, 1b23
• nj2 standing reset (use j3 for the cross-up)

111 xx Shackles:

• b3, early fj2, walk, 1b23
• nj2, b13, dash, 223
• b3, fj3, INT
• b3, fj2, b2, d3
• nj2 standing reset
• nj2, 1b23
• nj2, 223

1b2 xx Shackles:

• b3, early fj2, walk, 1b23
• nj2, b13, dash, 223
• b3, fj3, b1 xx INT
• b3, fj2, b2, d3

trait juggle 11 xx Shackles:

• fj1, b13, dash, 223
• b3, b1 xx INT
• b3, fj2, step foward, d3
• fj1, 1b23

f2d1 xx Shackles/trait juggle b2, d2 xx Shackles:

• fj2, b13, dash, 223
• b3, dash, 1 xx INT
• fj2, 1b23

As you can see, there's a specific combo into D3/ Interactable for each distance from Shackles.

The "nj2, 223" seems exclusive to 111. And "b13, dash, 223" seems to be the only universal setup that works no matter what distance you are from Shackles.

The NJ2 standing reset off 22 xx Shackles can't be made ambiguous without trait. The spacing doesn't allow it. But you can still mixup with trait+cross-up j3/Axe of Terror.

*Added this info to OP

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Vulcan Hades premature front page is my fault maybe but I got excited


So hades can we talk about from your perspective when it makes sense to do one of my shackles ji2 d1 options vs your stuff? Also I'm finding ending combos such as b13 b3 ji3 b12 shackles ji2 u then after ji2 wait a tiny sec then can do cross up 1 but if u immediately jump after ji2 it'll whiff .

 

[xWildx]

It's so weird that, in this game, you can whiff part of a string and still have it combo. Where was this mechanic when I was playing Kitana? lol

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Vulcan Hades premature front page is my fault maybe but I got excited


So hades can we talk about from your perspective when it makes sense to do one of my shackles ji2 d1 options vs your stuff? Also I'm finding ending combos such as b13 b3 ji3 b12 shackles ji2 u then after ji2 wait a tiny sec then can do cross up 1 but if u immediately jump after ji2 it'll whiff .

Wow, I had no idea b13, b3 could combo LOL. That's an amazing link, I definitely need to explore that into shackles. I think this could lead into new very interesting setups.

So hades can we talk about from your perspective when it makes sense to do one of my shackles ji2 d1 options vs your stuff?

I'm too new with Sinestro lol. I haven't really thought about that yet.

 

[DoctrineDark]

This is so beautifull! great job Vulcan Hades!

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Forgot to mention something about b13, dash, 223:

The cross-up for this one is hard to time without trait. The reason is because most of the time the opponent can walk back half a step which makes most cross-ups hit front. But if you use trait as you jump in, the trait either hits or gets blocked. Either way, the trait makes them hold still which allows your j1/j3 to cross-up in situations where it shouldn't normally cross-up.

It's still possible to do a normal cross-up without trait but it's hard and inconsistent in my experience.

Another oddity I found is that if you loop the same sequence, you get closer to the opponent on hit. I'm not sure what causes this.

But for example:

fj1, 22 xx Shackles, nj2, (wait), fj1, 22 xx Shackles

The spacing after the first 22 xx Shackles isn't exactly the same as the second 22 xx Shackles even though in both cases fj1 crosses-up and 22 hits pointblank. The same thing happens after a meaty cross-up or fake cross-up. This is driving me nuts lol.

What this basically means is that if you don't have trait only the b3 and b13 setups can be made ambiguous after 22 xx Shackles. Thankfully those are the most damaging anyways.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Forgot to mention something about b13, dash, 223:

The cross-up for this one is hard to time without trait. The reason is because most of the time the opponent can walk back half a step which makes most cross-ups hit front. But if you use trait as you jump in, the trait either hits or gets blocked. Either way, the trait makes them hold still which allows your j1/j3 to cross-up in situations where it shouldn't normally cross-up.

It's still possible to do a normal cross-up without trait but it's hard and inconsistent in my experience.

Another oddity I found is that if you loop the same sequence, you get closer to the opponent on hit. I'm not sure what causes this.

But for example:

fj1, 22 xx Shackles, nj2, (wait), fj1, 22 xx Shackles

The spacing after the first 22 xx Shackles isn't exactly the same as the second 22 xx Shackles even though in both cases fj1 crosses-up and 22 hits pointblank. The same thing happens after a meaty cross-up or fake cross-up. This is driving me nuts lol.

What this basically means is that if you don't have trait only the b3 and b13 setups can be made ambiguous after 22 xx Shackles. Thankfully those are the most damaging anyways.

So when using this tonight in actual games I found this works

B13 b3 ji3 b12 shackles ji2 *wait a tiny mili second* cross over 1 b13 repeat or cross over ji3 11 shackles into combo

Also b13 b13 b12 shackles works the same as above

Vulcan can u test these and make sure they are legit?

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Vulcan Hades

Also I found ending combos w 1b23 such as

B13 b3 ji3/ji2 1b23 you dash forward immediately, then extremely tiny baby step walk cross over 1

 

[Vulcan Hades]

So when using this tonight in actual games I found this works

B13 b3 ji3 b12 shackles ji2 *wait a tiny mili second* cross over 1 b13 repeat or cross over ji3 11 shackles into combo

Also b13 b13 b12 shackles works the same as above

Vulcan can u test these and make sure they are legit?

Yeah that works.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Update. Sorry it took a while but I wanted to test to make sure everything really worked + I was testing other stuff kinda related to this but not really lol.

Anyway, to make everything a lot simpler I decided to cut everything down to 3-4 simple Vortex sequences.

1. hit confirm xx Shackles, b3, fj2, walk, 1b23, dash -> j1/j3
2. b13, b3, fj3, late b12 xx Shackles, fj2, wait a tic -> j1/j3
3. (trait juggle) xx Shackles, j2, 1b23, dash or hit confirm xx Shackles, b3 to d3 -> JI Trait/Axe of Terror/J1/J3
4. Combo into BG Interactable

The first 2 ones are the best ones because they require no trait at all. The second one has the advantage of denying wake up options (it's basically an improved version of the standing reset thanks to Pig and P2W). The third one requires trait because the cross-ups are obvious. This vortex is weaker but still necessary.

If trait is used and hits in either V1 or V2, then they can no longer be looped because of gravity scaling. In which case, you would fall into V3 or V4 until you can go into V1 or V2 again.

Basically, there are 5 combo enders:

• B3-1B23
• J2 Standing Reset
• B3-D3
• 1B23
• BG Interactable

And there's 6 main hit confirms/starters:

• 22
• f2d1
• b13
• Axe of Terror
• MB b3
• Trait juggle

Here's a video showing all the ways to get to those enders when possible from the various starters:

And I think that's it! Now this thread finally feels complete.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Update. Sorry it took a while but I wanted to test to make sure everything really worked + I was testing other stuff kinda related to this but not really lol.

Anyway, to make everything a lot simpler I decided to cut everything down to 3-4 simple Vortex sequences.

1. hit confirm xx Shackles, b3, fj2, walk, 1b23, dash -> j1/j3
2. b13, b3, fj3, late b12 xx Shackles, fj2, wait a tic -> j1/j3
3. (trait juggle) xx Shackles, j2, 1b23, dash or hit confirm xx Shackles, b3 to d3 -> JI Trait/Axe of Terror/J1/J3
4. Combo into BG Interactable

The first 2 ones are the best ones because they require no trait at all. The second one has the advantage of denying wake up options (it's basically an improved version of the standing reset thanks to Pig and P2W). The third one requires trait because the cross-ups are obvious. This vortex is weaker but still necessary.

If trait is used and hits in either V1 or V2, then they can no longer be looped because of gravity scaling. In which case, you would fall into V3 or V4 until you can go into V1 or V2 again.

Basically, there are 5 combo enders:

• B3-1B23
• J2 Standing Reset
• B3-D3
• 1B23
• BG Interactable

And there's 6 main hit confirms/starters:

• 22
• f2d1
• b13
• Axe of Terror
• MB b3
• Trait juggle

Here's a video showing all the ways to get to those enders when possible from the various starters:

And I think that's it! Now this thread finally feels complete.

reallllllllllllllllllly good stuff man.

again... i think the focus should be on the standing resets. taking wakeup moves/tech rolling out of the picture has the potential to create a true 50/50. sinestro doesn't have frost's slide so our ambiguity will need to come from cross ups and SAFE strings that are hit confirmable.

 

[Error]

It's so weird that, in this game, you can whiff part of a string and still have it combo. Where was this mechanic when I was playing Kitana? lol

It happened with me in MK9 with Ermac. He'd land a far jip into 31 but the 3 would whiff, probably didn't happen with Kitana because her normals have better reach or come out slower in strings.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

reallllllllllllllllllly good stuff man.

again... i think the focus should be on the standing resets. taking wakeup moves/tech rolling out of the picture has the potential to create a true 50/50. sinestro doesn't have frost's slide so our ambiguity will need to come from cross ups and SAFE strings that are hit confirmable.

Yes but I personally like baiting wake up attacks also.

There's just something really fun about knocking someone down and messing with your opponent's head. The stress when you're knocked down and can't roll, knowing that you either have to reversal to take a 50/50. I always like to abuse that sort of thing.

Plus you can't always b13 since it's not really a hit confirm. It's more of a punish. Although I found some interesting option-selects to make it safer.

btw these are all hard knockdowns so there is no tech rolling possible at all. And a lot of wake up attacks can whiff in the wrong direction or get stuffed by the cross-up or Axe of Terror.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

bump