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Strategy Safe/Unsafe Against Traited Doomsday.

HungryforPasta

Come and Get it!
This entire thread, once a great deal of match-up specific information is compiled will most likely be packaged up and sent over to the match-up thread as to make it easier to find all related things in one area.

We've all noticed at this point that Doomsday Trait is extremely formidable! Once activated he cannot be thrown, cannot be launched or knockdown by any means (except for supers & Superman's trait). While the logical reaction to a traited doom ought to be to rapid fire fast and safe light normals to keep him at bay for the duration of his trait or better yet to hold up back and run away from him as far and for as long as possible!

What is logical, reasonable and obvious in the realm of Theory fighter is not necessarily so when one is playing the game itself, it's all to common to find people online behaving and reacting in ways that seem borderline... dumb.

Be that as it may, it's not my place to castigate and pick fun at online players but nonetheless, this random ignorant way of going about fighting is a phenomena that many of us are going to witness and deal with for whatever reason and we had better be prepared for it!

So now... the point of this thread:
There are a great number, probably dozens and dozens of strings and specials which are safe on block and are used commonly throughout the entire game. What's special and icrediably unique to us (Doomsday players, afaik) is that our trait gives us the opportunities to punish things which we otherwise wouldn't be able to.

Having our trait activated allows us to withstand specials which knock down or wall bounce. And more often than not, because those specials are meant to knock down or wall bounce, they don't have within them enough hitstun to make themselves safe against Traited Doomsday!

This is probably Day ONE knowledge for the vast majority of players but it's a point that nonetheless ought to be stressed in fear that somebody out there might not get it!

Specials which are safe on block and give some sort of knock down on hit would be UNSAFE on hit against Doomsday if he has his trait up! An easy example would be nearly every b3 in the game... usually frame advantage on block, give Doomsday a Huge opening to punish if he chooses to NOT BLOCK the hit while having his trait up! He won't fly anywhere but instead will stand there and have the opportunity to hit the opponent with virtually any BnB possible!


Blah!!!!!!!!

So let's get down to the nitty gritty
now that we've finally got that long winded introduction out of the way we can finally delve into the maddness...

Below will be toggles for match-ups which will have within them both Specials AND strings which are punishable by Doomsday in some form, when he has his trait up!
I'll do my best to run through characters when I have the chance but won't have enough time or energy to get to every character for a while, that's where you guys come in!

If you have something interesting to contribute regarding the utility of trait in a specific match-up, PLEASE help us all by contributing your findings so we can all level up together!
 

HungryforPasta

Come and Get it!
Always maximize any combo opportunity by taking advantage of screen positioning, i.e. if the corner is near by, or by interactables if they can be used within combos or as difficult to avoid meaty set-ups.

Trait is active for only so long, it's best to take advantage of it as best we can.

As far as I know
There are two optimal ways to begin a combo mid screen!
3 xx df2 MB
2 3 xx df2 MB

The typical followup after df2 MB, is d2 juggle into b3, ji 3, air snatch, or venom if you want to corner carry.

The juggle between the d2 to b3 is difficult if the combo begins with 2,3 however it is universal.

The juggle between d2 to b3 is easy if the combo begins with simply 3, however it won't work on every character!

Note that the combo will do the same damage either way!
For those of you who don't mind getting character specific in your combos, not for more damage but for easier execution, here is a brief list as to who the combo works on from beginning from standing 3.

*Important Note*
If the combo begins with a jump body splash, doing close 3 xx df2 MB will work on the entire cast!!!
The character specifics of this is only relevant if the combo BEGINS with standing 3!

Listing the characters by their interactive categories*
Characters' names written in RED will mean 3 xx df2 mb does NOT work
Characters' names written in GREEN will mean that it does!

Power Ground:
Aquaman
Ares
Bane
Cyborg
Doomsday
Lex Luthor
Shazam
Solomon Grundy

Power Flying:
Black Adam
Hawkgirl
Green Lantern
Sinestro
Superman
Wonder Woman

Acrobatic
The Flash
Killer Frost
Raven

Gaget
Batman
Catwoman
Deathstroke
Green Arrow
Harley Quinn
The Joker
Nightwing


*All the gagets, 2 Acrobats, one flying power and a few grounded power!

13/11
54% of the cast
pretty good if you ask me
 

HungryforPasta

Come and Get it!
The Evil Villains

  • Crowbar:Incredibly unsafe
Regular Doomsday:Punish with venom, or with f2 3 xx venom! very easy!
Trait Doomsday: Makes what was easy even easier!

Ex Crowbar: coming soon



  • Acid Flower:
Regular Doomsday:Safe no punish available
Trait Doomsday: 3 if you're close enough, shoulder tackle if spaced out


  • Bang
Safe on block!
Hits high, it can be blocked from a great distance and be punished by venom from a great distance. If the chance arrives, Bang is unsafe on hit against a Traited Doomsday and DD can punish with whatever normal if he is close enough!
  • Corpse Charge
The punish is 2,3
the timing for punishment seems to feel the same for either on block as Regular DD or on hit as traited Doomsday.

Fairly simple!

  • Sucking Engine
Very unsafe on block in every situation!


  • Super
standing 1 will punish
123 venom
or 12 db2 MB
  • Black Ice (slide)
Unpunishable for both regular and traited Doomsday!
a preemptive armored b3 is the only method I've found to properly counter this move!

  • Ground Icicle
Horrible on block!
Regular Doomsday can punish with Venom from far distance and with any normal available if close enough!


  • Command Grab
Her command grab only grabs high meaning it can be ducked!
If traited the command grab will whiff completely on standing Doomsday however the hitstun restricts the punish to a mere standing 1.


  • Super
Her super is safe on block
however has a great amount of start up and can simply be jumped away from as soon as the super flash has passed.
A match where Trait comes in handy!

  • God Smack
It can be met in the air and beaten pretty reliable with normal doomsday
Traited Doomsday can simply take the hit and punish fully with standing 3

  • Fire Ball/MB
Regular fireballs hit high and can be ducked. DD can simply duck under regular fireballs and punish from afar with venom fairly consistently.

MB fireballs however connect as overhead and therefore must be blocked standing.

Regular Doomsday cannot punish Ex fireball.
Traited doomsday can punish Ex fireball on hit with venom if he is within half a screen away.

Ares's Trait

  • Trait Sword: Projectile/Low/Overhead
Projectile: Hits high and can be ducked and punished with venom like regular fireballs

Low: Completely safe, preemptive armored 3 is the only method of punishment

Overhead:
Regular DD: Safe
Traited Doomsday may punish with standing 1 if close enough

  • Trait Axe: Projectile/Low/Overhead
Projectile: Hits Mid and cannot be ducked! Regular Doomsday cannot punish
Traited Doomsday can punish with venom if close enough

Low: Safe against regular DD
Traited DD can take the hit and punish with d1, d3 or super

Overhead: Safe against regular DD
Traited DD can take the hit and punish with standing 2 or 3 if close enough.


  • Super
Ares' super can be punish on block with venom!
  • Sword Flip
Very punishable on block
Regular DD can punish with standing 3

  • Sword Spin
Safe on block against regular DD
Traited DD can take the hit and punish with standing 2 or 3 if close enough.


  • Guns
High guns: Hit hit can be ducked and punished with Venom. Can also be blocked high and punished with venom if close enough

Low Guns: Very unsafe on block, can be punished with venom from far away

Rifle: Similar to Low guns but is not quite as unsafe.

  • Super
Punish on block with Venom.
  • Cleaver
Horrid on block,
Punishable with regular DD with standing 3


  • Walking Corpse Grab
Traited Doomsdayis immune to throws.
He can take the hitstun and punish with 2 or 3, the timing is fairly strict.


  • Swamp Hands
Completely safe against regular Doomsday
Very Unsafe against Traited Doomsday, can take the hit and punish with standing 3.
  • Cat Claws
Completely Safe
Armored back 3 is the only method of countering *Difficult as the special has more than one hit and therefore requires precise timing to counter.

  • Straight Whip
Regular DD, completely safe
Traited DD, can d1 punish if close enough

  • Cat Dash
Regular DD can only punish with d1
Traited DD can oddly still only punish with d1, *However catwoman still crosses up*

  • Super
Venom punish
  • Low Lightning
Regular DD: Standing or crouching 1 if close enough.
Traited DD: Free Venom punish!

  • Lightning Storm
Regular DD: Completely Safe
Traited DD: Very unsafe, 2 or 3 punish

  • Lightning Cage
Regular DD: Completely safe
Traited DD: Very Unsafe, 2 or 3 punish if close enough

  • Black Magic
Regular DD: Venom Punish if within Venom's range!
Breaks me heart having to dissect our beloved character!
Think of it as studying up in preparing to weed out those who are just looking for cheep and easy wins with DD, lets stomp them and show them that DD shall not be disrespected!

  • Venom
Regular Doomsday: D1
Traited Doomsday: 2 or 3 punish, fairly liberal timing

  • Air Venom
Obviously very bad and easy to punish

  • Earthshaker
Doomsday: Completely safe ( Yo, this move is cheap;))
Traited DD: Incredibly unsafe!

  • Supernova
Regular DD: unblockable, either dash forward and punish or do armored b3 to absorb
Traited DD: Incredibly unsafe

  • Super
Super is the only thing I could find to punish Super.
  • Fireball
Unique in that it hits mid however is unsafe!
Venom can punish on block from quite a far range

  • Overhead Meteor
Venom can punish from max range!
pretty easy

  • Scorpion Scoop
Regular Doomsday: D1 punish
Traited Doomsday: 2 or 3 punish

  • Super
Super was the only thing I could find to punish super.
  • Toy Gun
Regular DD: Safe
Traited DD: Venom punish when within range

  • Normal Gun
Hits high
Incredibly difficult to punish even if ducking and at point blank
safest projectile I've ever seen so far in IGAU.

  • Arching Pie
High arch and hits overhead
Venom on reaction to travel underneath and punish the recovery!

  • Command Grab
The grab only connects on standing opponents, simply crouch and punish
Traited Doomsday is immune to throws and can endure the slight hitstun and punish Quinn with standing 2 or 3.

  • Super
If the super was activated from across the screen then Doomsday can punish with a Supernova MB

If the super was activated from close ranged and was blocked, Doomsday can punish Quinn with standing 2.
  • Double Punch
Regular DD: Safe
Traited DD: Very unsafe, 2 or 3

  • Command Grab
The command grab is completely safe against traited Doomsday.

  • Venom Uppercut
Obviously very unsafe and punishable

  • Shoulder Tackle
Regular DD: Safe
Traited DD: Bane will still cross up! DD can punish with standing 2
 

HungryforPasta

Come and Get it!
Super Heroes

  • Straight Grappling Hook
Pretty unsafe on block, Vemon punish when within 90% of max range!

  • Counter
Batman cannot counter Doomsday's Earthshaker, Air Venom or his Supernova.
it does not work against jumping normals nor does it work against his sweep

Mid and High normals along with venom will be countered

Trait does not allow DD any sort of additional immunity against Batman's counter.

  • Batarangs
From point blank DD can punish with d3 or d1
Venom cannot punish outside of the range of d3.

Traited DD I think gains roughly 10% screen distance punishability with Venom

  • Run Slide
Batman's main desperation wake up option

Punishable with d1 or d3
Traited DD: can punish with standing 3

  • Super
Jumpable if done naked mid screen
If blocked, it is punishable by super
and d1 and 3 if within range

Venom cannot punish!
Escrima Mode

  • Ground Spark
Completely Safe on block

  • Escrima Fury
Very Unsafe on block
However NW will only swing his baton ONCE so you'd be well advised in being acquainted in how the animation looks on block.

Traited DD: NW continues the entire animation at which point will be SAFE.

  • Flip Kick
Hits overhead, safe on block
can cross up if close enough, so beware!

Traited DD: Can punish with standing 3



STAFF MODE


  • Ground blast
Similar to Aquaman's seismo in that it has a vertically reaching hitbox so it can potentially reach shallow air born opponents. Jumping toward IS however the main method of punishment it seems.

Completely safe on block against Both DDs

  • Staff Spin
One of nightwing's MAJOR wake up tools.

-6 making it frame perfect safe against regular DD on block.

Traited DD: Punishable by standing 3 however timing is strict!

  • Flying Grayson
Lot to say about this special.

It's -3 on block making it safe to regular DD.
and is safe against traited DD
It will fly over DD point blank if you try to do a preemptive Armored b3 :(
It has a little invulnerability on its start up so using meaty overheads or normals are a bad option.

The invuln is slight enough as to make preemptive grounded and air venoms along with earthshakers good options!

Flying grayson hits HIGH meaning that it can be ducked under.
If point blank and crouching, NW will fly over DD's head and land slightly out of d3's range.
The proper punish seems to be a slightly delayed d2 which then can lead to a f2-3 xx venom combo, the timing on the "delayed' is very specific and needs to be practiced!

If spaced out slightly within the range the knock back after venom
NW will still fly over DD's head but will within d1 and d3's range


If spaced further it should be easy to react with a d2 or perhaps punish with standing 3 if the situation allows for it, use your best judgement!

*At far ranges, armored b3 is a viable counter*




  • Super
DD's super seems to be the only punish!
  • Speed Dodge
Enough Invuln to dodge one attack,
meaty d1 cancelled into any special is enough to punish

  • Horizontal Head Rush
Very unsafe on block
d1 reliably punishes along with venom

  • Lightning Kick
Invincible on wake up
Safe against regular and traited DD

  • Sonic Pound
Safe on block to both Regular and Traited DD
As DD, if you hold forward against the flash on his wake up, Sonic Pound's horizontal movement will cause it to cross up flash and whiff completely at which point a full standing 3 punish combo is possible.

  • Upward Headbutt
Very unsafe on block, full standing 3 combo possible.


  • Super
Very fast moving super, it is not jumpable on naked reaction from mid screen, must be nearly full screen to do so.

On block, only DD's Super can punish.
  • Rising Grab
Invincible on wake up.
It is possible but fairly difficult to punish this with standing 1.

Traited DD: Obviously reduces the hitstun making punishing it very easy. Take note that superman has next to NO recovery once his feet touch the floor. It's more reliable to do a quick mid air punish combo

*Very Important*
Although this move hits "mid" it will not make contact against DD if he is crouching.
Same advice as before, superman has very little recovery once he lands on the floor so a quick mid air combo punish would be a good choice!


  • Super Breath
Regular DD: Safe on block
Traited DD: Can punish with standing 3

  • Hard Vision
Punishable by venom when within 50% of its range.

  • Flying Punch
After blocking, Superman's distance from DD is seemingly dependant on what range he was prior to the flying punch. At close ranges he lands closer and at far rangers he lands farther away. When close enough DD can punish with a d1

Traited DD: Trait doesn't seem to change anything.

  • Hard Zap
Incredibly safe on whiff and block.
Extremely difficult to punish with d1 after crouching the laser at point blank range.

  • Low scoop
Very unsafe on block


  • Super
Very unsafe on block
 

Eminent

Forum Lurker
I think Doomsday in trait mode has the same hitstun from every move. If you figure out how long that hitstun lasts you should just be able to look at the recovery frames on each move to see if it's punishable by Doomsday on hit.
 
This is great thread. I'll start on Batman once I get some labtime in. I've actually tried to see if the 1,2 string (+6) on block can be punished if you get hit by the 2 with trait on.

Sadly, it can't =\
 

HungryforPasta

Come and Get it!
d1 = 7 frames
throw = 10 frames
3 = 14 frames
and I think super is around 10 frames as well...

loose guide on how vulnerable something is