Match-up Discussion - Ruthless Ruthless Living MU Chart

[omooba]

Hard to punish =/= "pseudo safe"

not because hard to punish but because not everyone can punish it and ex db2 becomes -6 at max range which i believe is the definition of pseudo safe. same with ex roll which becomes nuetral i think? not sure on that one but it's definitely also safe at max range

"psuedo safe meterless armor" being what, our 30 frame charge that loses armor after the first 9 frames that's also -8 on block?
Most damaging armored launcher for one bar doesn't belong to Lackey, we do get a decent chunk but none of that matters considering he has no realistic pressure options or 50/50 to use.
If you're just suggesting we throw out our valuable meter on guesses to try and punish stuff, do keep in mind the hitbox is also janky and you're more likely to go over your opponent or get blocked than actually do anything.

psuedo safe i explained at the top wasn't talking about the charge. i almost never use ex charge. that shit needs buffs to be useful. and what's the most damaging one bar armored launcher if not lackey's? the rest i think is just a difference of opinion. b1,2,1,2 is a manageable stagger. combined with his scary ass armor, meterless armor, 6 frame long ass d1 and a command grab i think he's pressure is pretty good. and i wasn't talking about how good he is as a character i was talking about him having good match ups. big difference

 

[Doombawkz]

not because hard to punish but because not everyone can punish it and ex db2 becomes -6 at max range which i believe is the definition of pseudo safe. same with ex roll which becomes nuetral i think? not sure on that one but it's definitely also safe at max range

psuedo safe i explained at the top wasn't talking about the charge. i almost never use ex charge. that shit needs buffs to be useful. and what's the most damaging one bar armored launcher if not lackey's? the rest i think is just a difference of opinion. b1,2,1,2 is a manageable stagger. combined with his scary ass armor, meterless armor, 6 frame long ass d1 and a command grab i think he's pressure is pretty good. and i wasn't talking about how good he is as a character i was talking about him having good match ups. big difference

You said meterless armor. Meterless charge has natural armor. Thought thats what you were referring to.

EX d.b.2 at max range should never actually hit anyone's block. like Ever. it's a free punish to anyone who isn't a complete pleb in the match-up. EX roll becomes +1 from the entire screen away, but is also punishable if they happen to just jump or press back in those 18 frames it takes you to get there. Also loses armor halfway through its animation so projectiles and most moves with hitboxes infront of them will beat it too. Also costs a bar and I mean if you're REALLY on point you can convert off of it hitting for 42% or so but it should never hit anyone from that far at all ever.

Technically Alien has the highest if you count the blockstring and poison you have to hold. Ruthless can get up to like 71% for a bar. Vicious can get 53%. Pretty sure Cassie can get in the neighborhood of like 48% or so. Lackey's damage isn't anything to write home about with most practical combos only dealing somewhere around 45% for a bar, which as it happens is pretty damn average.

b.1212 isn't a stagger, b.121 is but it's -3 on block. Uppercut can be punished by literally everyone in the game with a d.2 that isn't named ferra/torr just about because it loses armor halfway up. 6 frame -8 d.1 that doesn't confirm into anything and a command grab that throws them full screen where Torr has to struggle to get in again.

 

[omooba]

You said meterless armor. Meterless charge has natural armor. Thought thats what you were referring to.

EX d.b.2 at max range should never actually hit anyone's block. like Ever. it's a free punish to anyone who isn't a complete pleb in the match-up. EX roll becomes +1 from the entire screen away, but is also punishable if they happen to just jump or press back in those 18 frames it takes you to get there. Also loses armor halfway through its animation so projectiles and most moves with hitboxes infront of them will beat it too. Also costs a bar and I mean if you're REALLY on point you can convert off of it hitting for 42% or so but it should never hit anyone from that far at all ever.

Technically Alien has the highest if you count the blockstring and poison you have to hold. Ruthless can get up to like 71% for a bar. Vicious can get 53%. Pretty sure Cassie can get in the neighborhood of like 48% or so. Lackey's damage isn't anything to write home about with most practical combos only dealing somewhere around 45% for a bar, which as it happens is pretty damn average.

b.1212 isn't a stagger, b.121 is but it's -3 on block. Uppercut can be punished by literally everyone in the game with a d.2 that isn't named ferra/torr just about because it loses armor halfway up. 6 frame -8 d.1 that doesn't confirm into anything and a command grab that throws them full screen where Torr has to struggle to get in again.

i think i'm just not wording my point well. i didn't mean 1 bar combos i meant 1 bar combos off armor. i mean when a character uses an armored move to hit you and does a combo without spending any more meter, he does the most damage

with the two armor attacks i said become safe. they are waaaay more viable than you make it seem. at that range that only pleebs would get hit my it is the range where king jin's f2 starts becoming a thread same with takeda b2 alien's limb. soooo many characters who would just abuse you at that range. shit at that range all these characters i mentioned can option select tempest's armor. and with the "18 frame" roll. that shit probably goes fullscreen and launches and is plus. on reaction to a decent amount of projectiles they'll have to hold it.

when i said b1,2,1,2 i meant the hole string not just the end. (thought it was obvious but again my bad for the wording). i never mentioned uppercut as a thing ever and also his uppercut is plus so i don't know who's punishing it. and it does comfirm into a combo unless that got patched out this week or something.

 

[Shade667]

Lackey is trash and has no winning matchups, I agree. Though that isnt for this thread.

Peircing vs ruthless is 3-7 at best. She shuts down almost all our options.

I feel like impostor is 2-8. It always feels like its a hopeless scenario for Ferra/Torr.

 

[Doombawkz]

i think i'm just not wording my point well. i didn't mean 1 bar combos i meant 1 bar combos off armor. i mean when a character uses an armored move to hit you and does a combo without spending any more meter, he does the most damage

with the two armor attacks i said become safe. they are waaaay more viable than you make it seem. at that range that only pleebs would get hit my it is the range where king jin's f2 starts becoming a thread same with takeda b2 alien's limb. soooo many characters who would just abuse you at that range. shit at that range all these characters i mentioned can option select tempest's armor. and with the "18 frame" roll. that shit probably goes fullscreen and launches and is plus. on reaction to a decent amount of projectiles they'll have to hold it.

when i said b1,2,1,2 i meant the hole string not just the end. (thought it was obvious but again my bad for the wording). i never mentioned uppercut as a thing ever and also his uppercut is plus so i don't know who's punishing it. and it does comfirm into a combo unless that got patched out this week or something.

I'll go through all of this. Again, no. Still belongs to alien as he can get about 50% through chip and poison off of a MB tail flip. Cassie also gets tons out of MB flip kick. Ferra/Torr, not so much. The damage is good, but I'd never say its the best.

Except that they aren't. The example you're saying is people poking at you from a range. In honesty, they have no reason to. People "lose" to Lackey F/T in the way they "lose" to Bane, being they are so used to playing offensively they don't bother to play defensively. If they did, they would realize they can sit and block low and there's almost nothing we can really do about it except for a throw, which does meh damage and sends them full screen where we instantly lose all hope of continuing pressure. Also a lot of better character pokes will full-out avoid the first hit of uppercut, and the second hit can be backdashed (and even d.2'd by some characters), some characters can forward dash under him or low-hitbox under it... There's so many things that make MB upper not a good viable stand-alone option.

The 18 frame roll does go almost full screen and launches and is plus, BUT unless you're using single-shot as cassie most projectiles recover in time to hold back and simply step out of the range of the roll. Also you can d.2 him out of it with characters who have 8 frame d.2s, but it's a bit harder.

b.1212 is his only good thing, and that's not a lackey specific string. The other 2 variations use it better than him, and b.1212 staggers aren't going to win you any match-ups when it's all you have.

 

[Blewdew]

I'll go through all of this. Again, no. Still belongs to alien as he can get about 50% through chip and poison off of a MB tail flip. Cassie also gets tons out of MB flip kick. Ferra/Torr, not so much. The damage is good, but I'd never say its the best.

cassie ex flip doesn't have armor though and midscreen her damage is still poop. ex toryuken gives lackey the damage for on bar midscreen cassie gets when she corners someone. imo mileena would be a better comparison.

 

[Blewdew]

Displacer does better than TG for three reasons.
1: Ferra/Torr lives for the corner game, and Displacer can't be cornered. Against TG on the other hand, 90% of the match will be taking place at the corner for both sides, so it's much easier to get our ridiculous corner game going against him.
2: Displacer can play keepaway for days. With our movement speed, it's extremely hard to pin him down while safely teleporting all over the place and throwing lightning balls.
3: Armor options. All of TG's armored moves are single hitting which makes them easily baited with PnG, whether it's on wakeup or mid-pressure. Displacer's best armored option is his EX teleport which can be placed in many different locations and can be followed up with pretty much whatever he wants, so he doesn't share the armor problem with TG.

CSZ is 5-5 for a lot of same reasons as displacer. He has zoning/keepaway that would be considered mediocre against most characters but it really makes f/t work hard getting in. Super mobility with divekick, hard to compete with his bombs, b2 and f2 in neutral, and his godlike backdash makes it impossible to pin him down until you've run him all the way to the corner. It's actually pretty slanted in CSZ's favor until you reach the corner, but once you get there it could be game over which evens it out to a 5-5.

Yes, the kano matchup really is that bad. Ferra Toss does not help against his regular knives' insane recovery. His backdash is even better than CSZ's. He full combo punishes tuck n trample on block. EX up ball keeps us off of him with no risk involved and can't be baited with PnG or armor broken. His d4 low profiles our best mid in 7 frames. EX knives don't whiff on us. And all this is just Universal Kano BS. Cutthroat is just hilariously unwinnable, and I'm speaking from experience after playing Gametime and Noobe. HIs moveset is basically the ultimate anti-F/T character lol.

Gunslinger and Marksman lose due to not having effective zoning against ferra toss, bad mids (big weakness against f/t), bad backdash, easily baited single hitting armor, and not being able to AA our j1 from most distances (I know it's hard to believe with errons s1, but try it yourself). @Sage Leviathan is the best Gunslinger I play and he can confirm.

alright thanks this is some great information.

when ruthless shuts down even gunslinger this bad how do you see the outlaw matchup? he has even worse fullscreen options and deals with the same problems as the other variations in the neutral.

 

[Doombawkz]

cassie ex flip doesn't have armor though and midscreen her damage is still poop. ex toryuken gives lackey the damage for on bar midscreen cassie gets when she corners someone. imo mileena would be a better comparison.

It's also 6 frames and can actually anti-air someone though, and midscreen her damage is actually pretty decent. I think I was pulling about 40% midscreen and I can't do run cancels

 

[Blewdew]

Lackey is trash and has no winning matchups, I agree. Though that isnt for this thread.

Peircing vs ruthless is 3-7 at best. She shuts down almost all our options.

I feel like impostor is 2-8. It always feels like its a hopeless scenario for Ferra/Torr.

I dunno about this. imo ruthless at least COULD get a chance to win if imposter does a mistake. it's still freaking bad as a 3-7 so it's a hard loosing mu either way

 

[Blewdew]

It's also 6 frames and can actually anti-air someone though, and midscreen her damage is actually pretty decent. I think I was pulling about 40% midscreen and I can't do run cancels

it's 7 frames now and her damage has been nerfed. pre patch she could get near 40% midscreen as a punisher and if you ex nutpunch but not anymore sadly. if you want to anti air you should regular flip cuz if you think lackeys toyruken hitbox is bad then you have to see cassies ex flip hitbox lol it's like smaller than herself. her damage in the corner is extremely high though.

 

[Doombawkz]

it's 7 frames now and her damage has been nerfed. pre patch she could get near 40% midscreen as a punisher and if you ex nutpunch but not anymore sadly. if you want to anti air you should regular flip cuz if you think lackeys toyruken hitbox is bad then you have to see cassies ex flip hitbox lol it's like smaller than herself. her damage in the corner is extremely high though.

I mean you get get about 40% off of a meterless glow kick conversion. Maybe I'm spoiled by Brawler though.

 

[omooba]

I'll go through all of this. Again, no. Still belongs to alien as he can get about 50% through chip and poison off of a MB tail flip. Cassie also gets tons out of MB flip kick. Ferra/Torr, not so much. The damage is good, but I'd never say its the best.

Except that they aren't. The example you're saying is people poking at you from a range. In honesty, they have no reason to. People "lose" to Lackey F/T in the way they "lose" to Bane, being they are so used to playing offensively they don't bother to play defensively. If they did, they would realize they can sit and block low and there's almost nothing we can really do about it except for a throw, which does meh damage and sends them full screen where we instantly lose all hope of continuing pressure. Also a lot of better character pokes will full-out avoid the first hit of uppercut, and the second hit can be backdashed (and even d.2'd by some characters), some characters can forward dash under him or low-hitbox under it... There's so many things that make MB upper not a good viable stand-alone option.

The 18 frame roll does go almost full screen and launches and is plus, BUT unless you're using single-shot as cassie most projectiles recover in time to hold back and simply step out of the range of the roll. Also you can d.2 him out of it with characters who have 8 frame d.2s, but it's a bit harder.

b.1212 is his only good thing, and that's not a lackey specific string. The other 2 variations use it better than him, and b.1212 staggers aren't going to win you any match-ups when it's all you have.

1) cassies flip kick doesn't have armor that's just straight up fact
2) with alien the combo you're talking about isn't guaranteed. the only thing guaranteed is like 33% damage and only in the corner to make the chip string jail you have to sacrifice like 10% dmg from what i know at least which will still keep it under lackey's dmg (if you have a video proving otherwise lemme see cus i'm not 100% sure on this) . i'm only counting guaranteed damage because i'm stating the fact that lackey does the most damage of an armored attack without spending a second bar. and btw lackeys max dmg of ex toryuken midscreen is 45%
3)the range you're saying no reason too is something i don;t know how to explain to you. you're saying that these characters shouldn't be poking at you at their max range? what? i guess that's your opinion but i disagree on that. I don't see why i wouldn't stay at a range where none of my opponents buttons will reach me other than armor.In my experience alien(b3,f4) takeda(b2) both get hit by second hit of toryuken especially after a breaker when they just throw it out because again most people don't have a normal that will reach
4) i guess my reactions suck because i'm not reacting to a 23 frame overhead and the people i fight don't react to it either. at worst they fuzzy which i don't think i need to explain why that's easy to get across if you notice it.
5) enough time to hold block yes enough time to move back and whiff punish not really no but that's an opinion thing. and with holding block that means i got in and started pressure from fullscreen for a bar. that's pretty nasty.
7) "mb torr up not a good stand alone option"... okay that's your opinion i disagree a lot but that's your opinion i guess
6) "b1,2,1,2 is his only good thing"... okay i disagree i think this character is very slept on but that's your opinion i guess.

 

[Doombawkz]

1) cassies flip kick doesn't have armor that's just straight up fact
2) with alien the combo you're talking about isn't guaranteed. the only thing guaranteed is like 33% damage and only in the corner to make the chip string jail you have to sacrifice like 10% dmg from what i know at least which will still keep it under lackey's dmg (if you have a video proving otherwise lemme see cus i'm not 100% sure on this) . i'm only counting guaranteed damage because i'm stating the fact that lackey does the most damage of an armored attack without spending a second bar. and btw lackeys max dmg of ex toryuken midscreen is 45%
3)the range you're saying no reason too is something i don;t know how to explain to you. you're saying that these characters shouldn't be poking at you at their max range? what? i guess that's your opinion but i disagree on that. I don't see why i wouldn't stay at a range where none of my opponents buttons will reach me other than armor.In my experience alien(b3,f4) takeda(b2) both get hit by second hit of toryuken especially after a breaker when they just throw it out because again most people don't have a normal that will reach
4) i guess my reactions suck because i'm not reacting to a 23 frame overhead and the people i fight don't react to it either. at worst they fuzzy which i don't think i need to explain why that's easy to get across if you notice it.
5) enough time to hold block yes enough time to move back and whiff punish not really no but that's an opinion thing. and with holding block that means i got in and started pressure from fullscreen for a bar. that's pretty nasty.
7) "mb torr up not a good stand alone option"... okay that's your opinion i disagree a lot but that's your opinion i guess
6) "b1,2,1,2 is his only good thing"... okay i disagree i think this character is very slept on but that's your opinion i guess.

1) No but it's fast enough to where you'd use it in much the same way you'd use MB torryuken, which is to blow up air attacks. Only difference is memory serving MB flip kick puts you a safe distance away.

2) I'll see if I can record it, I got myself doing about 40% for one bar with a puddle down and being able to pressure into chip without the opponent having an escape option. By the by, Lackey can get about 50% for 1 bar but the combo is highly impractical. 45% is the safer option.

3) I'm saying that yes, they shouldn't be trying to poke at a range where Lackey excels, being at peak b.12 and near-peak d.1 range. If they find themselves at that range, they can just block low and anything lackey does will make him lose his turn to most of the cast's options. Also your experience is weird because I've got the timing pretty down to where if a Lackey throws an EX torryu and gets the first hit blocked or whiffed I can just jab or uppercut him on the way down because the second half doesn't have armor on it.

4) I guess so, but his b.2 is incredibly short range. At point blank, a 23 frame move when we don't have anything that gives plus frames shouldn't hit a person. You don't have to respect Lackey Torr for the most part when he presses buttons since the only gimme tactic he has is throwing out random MB torryukens and hoping to catch someone sleeping, and as I said before most of the cast can either jab him out of the second half or low profile the first part and cause it to whiff.

5) At full screen there's not much reason not to hold back, and most characters projectiles will recover in time to do so. People not knowing to do it isn't the same as it being hard to do. Also you're only at plus one, unless you're just throwing out d.1 which converts into nothing or MAYBE standing 2. Then yeah maybe against like Liu Kang who has slow jab options.

6) It's really not and it's called Torryuken. I've worked that move into the ground, if people knew how easy it was to blow out no one would ever get hit by it again. @Hollywood DMS saw it firsthand and actually did it to me in a match. I threw the MB torryuken against his cassie and he either air jabbed me out on the way down or at one point he flip kicked me for a full combo. It was gross, but he CAN confirm what I'm saying about the armor.

7) IT really is, and it's better used by the other two variations. I think the character gets a pass because Ruthless exists, but no one actually uses Lackey Variation because a lot of MUs are 3-7 against him or worse, and there aren't any that are decidedly better than 5-5. I refuse to buy the bill that blood god loses to us simply because no Kotal knows how to play the lame game.

 

[joeldm]

This discussion about Lackey is interesting but we must create another thread to this.

 

[dennycascade]

1) cassies flip kick doesn't have armor that's just straight up fact
2) with alien the combo you're talking about isn't guaranteed. the only thing guaranteed is like 33% damage and only in the corner to make the chip string jail you have to sacrifice like 10% dmg from what i know at least which will still keep it under lackey's dmg (if you have a video proving otherwise lemme see cus i'm not 100% sure on this) . i'm only counting guaranteed damage because i'm stating the fact that lackey does the most damage of an armored attack without spending a second bar. and btw lackeys max dmg of ex toryuken midscreen is 45%
3)the range you're saying no reason too is something i don;t know how to explain to you. you're saying that these characters shouldn't be poking at you at their max range? what? i guess that's your opinion but i disagree on that. I don't see why i wouldn't stay at a range where none of my opponents buttons will reach me other than armor.In my experience alien(b3,f4) takeda(b2) both get hit by second hit of toryuken especially after a breaker when they just throw it out because again most people don't have a normal that will reach
4) i guess my reactions suck because i'm not reacting to a 23 frame overhead and the people i fight don't react to it either. at worst they fuzzy which i don't think i need to explain why that's easy to get across if you notice it.
5) enough time to hold block yes enough time to move back and whiff punish not really no but that's an opinion thing. and with holding block that means i got in and started pressure from fullscreen for a bar. that's pretty nasty.
7) "mb torr up not a good stand alone option"... okay that's your opinion i disagree a lot but that's your opinion i guess
6) "b1,2,1,2 is his only good thing"... okay i disagree i think this character is very slept on but that's your opinion i guess.

If you really think lackey is slept on then you're probably getting lack of matchup knowledge abused by lackey players. A lot of people try to play in lackey's face and rush him down, and obviously lackey will most likely win that battle (which is why he does well vs pressure characters). The key to fighting lackey with any character is to simply stay the fuck away from him and force mistakes. This character's run speed is probably about the same as some people's walk back speeds. Lackey can't compete with people zoning him out and walking back to outspace him, anyone with a good walk back, good advancing mid, good projectile or any combination of those things gives lackey a really tough time man. Pretty much everyone who I train with that knows the lackey matchup can agree that he is in fact, ass.

 

[dennycascade]

PS you guys can call me a downplayer if you want, I barely play lackey now anyway because Goro basically does his job but better.

 

[omooba]

If you really think lackey is slept on then you're probably getting lack of matchup knowledge abused by lackey players. A lot of people try to play in lackey's face and rush him down, and obviously lackey will most likely win that battle (which is why he does well vs pressure characters). The key to fighting lackey with any character is to simply stay the fuck away from him and force mistakes. This character's run speed is probably about the same as some people's walk back speeds. Lackey can't compete with people zoning him out and walking back to outspace him, anyone with a good walk back, good advancing mid, good projectile or any combination of those things gives lackey a really tough time man. Pretty much everyone who I train with that knows the lackey matchup can agree that he is in fact, ass.

i've played maybe 2 lackeys one at a local. i think he's slept on cus of my performance with him. almost all of lackey's problems disappear when he has meter making him very meter dependent but also very viable. i'm not saying he's some hidden s material i'm just saying he's decent and definitely has good match ups.

PS you guys can call me a downplayer if you want, I barely play lackey now anyway because Goro basically does his job but better.

agree for the most part

 

[omooba]

1) No but it's fast enough to where you'd use it in much the same way you'd use MB torryuken, which is to blow up air attacks. Only difference is memory serving MB flip kick puts you a safe distance away.

2) I'll see if I can record it, I got myself doing about 40% for one bar with a puddle down and being able to pressure into chip without the opponent having an escape option. By the by, Lackey can get about 50% for 1 bar but the combo is highly impractical. 45% is the safer option.

3) I'm saying that yes, they shouldn't be trying to poke at a range where Lackey excels, being at peak b.12 and near-peak d.1 range. If they find themselves at that range, they can just block low and anything lackey does will make him lose his turn to most of the cast's options. Also your experience is weird because I've got the timing pretty down to where if a Lackey throws an EX torryu and gets the first hit blocked or whiffed I can just jab or uppercut him on the way down because the second half doesn't have armor on it.

4) I guess so, but his b.2 is incredibly short range. At point blank, a 23 frame move when we don't have anything that gives plus frames shouldn't hit a person. You don't have to respect Lackey Torr for the most part when he presses buttons since the only gimme tactic he has is throwing out random MB torryukens and hoping to catch someone sleeping, and as I said before most of the cast can either jab him out of the second half or low profile the first part and cause it to whiff.

5) At full screen there's not much reason not to hold back, and most characters projectiles will recover in time to do so. People not knowing to do it isn't the same as it being hard to do. Also you're only at plus one, unless you're just throwing out d.1 which converts into nothing or MAYBE standing 2. Then yeah maybe against like Liu Kang who has slow jab options.

6) It's really not and it's called Torryuken. I've worked that move into the ground, if people knew how easy it was to blow out no one would ever get hit by it again. @Hollywood DMS saw it firsthand and actually did it to me in a match. I threw the MB torryuken against his cassie and he either air jabbed me out on the way down or at one point he flip kicked me for a full combo. It was gross, but he CAN confirm what I'm saying about the armor.

7) IT really is, and it's better used by the other two variations. I think the character gets a pass because Ruthless exists, but no one actually uses Lackey Variation because a lot of MUs are 3-7 against him or worse, and there aren't any that are decidedly better than 5-5. I refuse to buy the bill that blood god loses to us simply because no Kotal knows how to play the lame game.

1)so we agree on this now
2) haven't seen no 50% combo of his wake up but high execution doesn't equal impractical
3) this is not a range lackey excels at at all. part of why he needs the range on ex torr up (look up the name bruh it's called torr up and torr smash
4) well that's your opinion. imo the move is very viable. if people are getting hit my melina's overhead they'll get hit a lot more by this
5) just an opinion thing can't change your mind but i disagree
6) same here. actually with cassie i would never throw that out in neutral
7) same here
aight i'll stop cus wrong discussion but my last point is there's a lot more reasons why sun god is in our favor than kotal not playing the lame game

 

[DevilMaySpy]

6) It's really not and it's called Torryuken. I've worked that move into the ground, if people knew how easy it was to blow out no one would ever get hit by it again. @Hollywood DMS saw it firsthand and actually did it to me in a match. I threw the MB torryuken against his cassie and he either air jabbed me out on the way down or at one point he flip kicked me for a full combo. It was gross, but he CAN confirm what I'm saying about the armor.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Mournful does better against Ruthless than other two "fan" variations. She can stay at a spot where Ferra Toss can't reach her, then spam glaives. Her walk speed is broken

 

[Doombawkz]

1)so we agree on this now
2) haven't seen no 50% combo of his wake up but high execution doesn't equal impractical
3) this is not a range lackey excels at at all. part of why he needs the range on ex torr up (look up the name bruh it's called torr up and torr smash
4) well that's your opinion. imo the move is very viable. if people are getting hit my melina's overhead they'll get hit a lot more by this
5) just an opinion thing can't change your mind but i disagree
6) same here. actually with cassie i would never throw that out in neutral
7) same here
aight i'll stop cus wrong discussion but my last point is there's a lot more reasons why sun god is in our favor than kotal not playing the lame game

1) I guess

2) yeah its EX torryuken and it goes into some really weird roll mechanics. IT's hard to describe but with certain set-ups you get an extra roll and finisher after which is where the extra 5% comes out to.

3) That is a range Lackey excels at because it's a range where his big phantom hitboxes extend past his hurtboxes and gives him a bonus to his frames. Never enough to make him plus, but enough to where his -3 becomes neutral. Also it's the Torryuken and EX Torryuken.

4) It's not opinion, it's fact. Mileena has fast lows and she has an armored launching fast overhead option which we don't.

5) That's empirical frame data and the movement engine, so it's not opinion.

6) It's more specifically that I used it on wake-up, not just raw in the neutral. He blew my spine out after the first time.

7) Hmm

I disagree. I feel like if people played Lackey in the way they did against Killer Frost then they'd find Lackey is just a big body with no approach options, and no real way to stay in. Still, we can disagree here.

 

[Blewdew]

Mournful does better against Ruthless than other two "fan" variations. She can stay at a spot where Ferra Toss can't reach her, then spam glaives. Her walk speed is broken

So You would see this as a 6-4 in mournfuls favor? And how do you think ruthless should Play this MU? Dash forward and eat the chip until the Corner is reached?

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

So You would see this as a 6-4 in mournfuls favor? And how do you think ruthless should Play this MU? Dash forward and eat the chip until the Corner is reached?

I'm not sure if it's 5-5 or 6-4, because Kitana lacks tool to really body any character in the game

 

[Blewdew]

I'm not sure if it's 5-5 or 6-4, because Kitana lacks tool to really body any character in the game

Well she doesn't need to body him to have a slight advantage but if she has the same problems as royal Storm then she probably can't deal with ruthless pressure. Can't tell because I never played this mu

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Well she doesn't need to body him to have a slight advantage but if she has the same problems as royal Storm then she probably can't deal with ruthless pressure. Can't tell because I never played this mu

Like any Kitana mu, if their fans are good its gonna be hell. Its just that mournful has a much easier time of throwing them out at spaces ferra can't reach. I'd say this leans towards Mournful.