General/Other - Unbreakable Reevaluating Unbreakable Subzero

[DarksydeDash]

-Parry
It is hardly able to be used between gaps in strings, its useless as a wakeup, you can't defend yourself from zoning with it, not to mention it doesn't build meter when you parry. Sub has no strings that are at enough frames on block to successfully parry your opponent, the parry has too much recovery so your opponent can easily make it hurt twice as hard, the damage off parry is horrible, there is no point in using the MB'd version.

-Ice Aura
Honestly this is almost where it needs to be. However, the major problem with UB sub, and like Cryomancer, is they have no way to consistently build meter so you can't "abuse" the damage negation like say Blood God Kotal. The aura doesn't last enough to stop your opponent from pressuring you to death against the majority of the cast so that sucks as well. You should at least heal 5% or build meter on block while aura is active, but you don't. The most annoying thing though, is activating aura in a combo while your opponent is frozen, heavily scales the combo so you can't do aura-to-aura. Even if you try to stall your opponent out, you will lose to zoning because they will build meter while you build nothing. MB'd aura is only plus after f4 and only offers a safe low starter with B33. The extra damage from ice burst and combo ability off slide is nice but again, you need meter for MB aura to take advantage of unbreakable.

Verdict: 2/10
His only saving grace is he has sub's best brutality imo, and a safe low starter.

I advise you stay away from this variation until NRS takes this character's problems seriously.

 

[youthinkyoubadyouaintbad]

Unbreakable is garbage. Don't make me get Lord Brady in here.

/thread

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

I wonder if NRS buff unbreakable like this would Unbreakable be even OP: normal slide and ex slide are safe on block and launches for a full combo when aura is active

 

[DDutchguy]

I wonder if NRS buff unbreakable like this would Unbreakable be even OP: normal slide and ex slide are safe on block and launches for a full combo when aura is active

Safe launching armored SLIDE would be wtf-worthy.

 

[Kroaken]

I don't think he needs it to be safe. He just needs non ex slide to freeze with aura active.

 

[Goat-City]

I don't think he needs it to be safe. He just needs non ex slide to freeze with aura active.

I disagree. That's a random buff idea that doesn't make sense, doesn't solve his problems, and isn't worth much in terms of justifying the existence of this variation.

The main things Unbreakable should get are 10-15 fewer recovery frames on the parry and 20-25 fewer on the EX parry, parry building meter and having 3 frames start up on the normal version, and a small nerf in parry losing its backwards hit box so it doesn't work on teleports unless on reaction after the auto side switch. He needs more safe aura cancels (11 and maybe 24, 12 or 123,) aura building meter by blocking and extra meter build from being hit with reduced regular damage intake on the normal version as well, not just the EX version. EX aura should simply be a pressure tool and it should maybe get a hit of armor, MAYBE. The normal aura should also be about 3 frames faster so we can link b12 ice aura into instant jump punch on hit to combo. Ice aura lastly needs less damage scaling in combos.

Additional buffs that aren't necessarily needed or important would be parry working on jump attacks, parry being holdable similar to Assassin Kitana's parry, the EX parry starting up in 1 frame, EX parry having armor, slightly more damage on the aura enhanced ice burst, and/or the normal slide removing the aura on hit. However, I think he'd be good without these.

And universal Sub Zero changes that should be made are 112 being -6 or less on block with increased push back, 114 being -8 on block, b33d4 having the same minus frames and push back as b4, s11 being a good stagger with 20 fewer recovery frames, s24 being a better stagger with 5 fewer recovery frames, a 7 frame d1 and 8 frame d3, b2 doing 2% less damage and becoming slightly more minus on block ideally, and also b12 doing 2% less damage. These are in the context of my Grandmaster and Cryo change ideas but they're not relevant to this thread so I won't include them unless asked.

 

[Kroaken]

I disagree. That's a random buff idea that doesn't make sense, doesn't solve his problems, and isn't worth much in terms of justifying the existence of this variation.

The main things Unbreakable should get are 5-15 fewer recovery frames on the parry and 20-25 fewer on the EX parry, parry building meter and having 3 frames start up on the normal version, and a small nerf in parry losing its backwards hit box so it doesn't work on teleports unless on reaction after the auto side switch. He needs more safe aura cancels (11 and maybe 123,) aura building meter by blocking and extra meter from being hit with reduced regular damage on the normal version as well. EX aura should simply be a pressure tool and it should maybe get a hit of armor, MAYBE. The normal aura should also be about 2 frames faster so we can link b12 ice aura into instant jump punch on hit to combo. Ice aura lastly needs less damage scaling in combos.

Additional buffs that aren't necessarily needed or important would be parry working on jump attacks, parry being holdable similar to Assassin Kitana's parry, the EX parry starting up in 1 frame, EX parry having armor, slightly more damage on the aura enhanced ice bomb, and/or the normal slide removing the aura on hit or block. However, I think he'd be good without these.

And universal Sub Zero changes that should be made are 112 being -6 or less on block with increased push back, b33d4 having the same minus frames and push back as b4, 11 being a good stagger with 20 fewer recovery frames, a 7 frame d1 and 8 frame d3, b2 doing 2% less damage and becoming slightly more minus on block ideally, and also b12 doing 2% less damage. These are in the context of my Grandmaster and Cryo change ideas but they're not relevant to this thread so I won't include them unless asked.

I really like these ideas, Goat. Good points.

 

[GrimJack]

The thing is sub zero frames off his normal is created so that GM isn't broke. But then sub in general will get a hard time against a character that nullify the clone or if he doesn't have the clone. You can argue that playing unbreakable you can make your opponent guess with the parry. But how much damage you got off it? 23-25% while a punnish of a lot of characters lead to 30%+ with pressure afterward.

 

[GAV]

I will admit, i was under the impression that if aura was up, regular slide froze. I must have misseen the videos i saw on the changes.

That changes things imo.

If aura is up, EX slide freezes.

 

[Kroaken]

Yeah. I was mistaken. But as goat pointed out, he could use a few other changes. I was particularly keen on the frame buffs on parry.

 

[GAV]

I think it would be cool if these variations were buffed just a little, just so that we see them a little bit more...

Unbreakable
Hat Trick
Master of Storms
Warrior
Fisticuffs

 

[THTB]

It's close to being usable. Just needs some improvements on parry and regular aura. He just needs an option to build meter better than he currently does. I feel like aura burst should have the same effect as klone shatter, or at least make the burst like neutral on block.

The aura slide buff is huge as it is. With aura, Sub gets his best reversal and one hell of a neutral tool. The general issue is that he can't build the meter to get it. Also, parry being so bad doesn't help either.

Theoretically the variation has its uses in certain matchups. Just can't execute it as well in practice without some pick me ups.

 

[Kroaken]

It's close to being usable. Just needs some improvements on parry and regular aura. He just needs an option to build meter better than he currently does. I feel like aura burst should have the same effect as klone shatter, or at least make the burst like neutral on block.

The aura slide buff is huge as it is. With aura, Sub gets his best reversal and one hell of a neutral tool. The general issue is that he can't build the meter to get it. Also, parry being so bad doesn't help either.

Theoretically the variation has its uses in certain matchups. Just can't execute it as well in practice without some pick me ups.

I agree. It's getting better but not quite there.

 

[Goat-City]

It's close to being usable. Just needs some improvements on parry and regular aura. He just needs an option to build meter better than he currently does. I feel like aura burst should have the same effect as klone shatter, or at least make the burst like neutral on block.

The aura slide buff is huge as it is. With aura, Sub gets his best reversal and one hell of a neutral tool. The general issue is that he can't build the meter to get it. Also, parry being so bad doesn't help either.

Theoretically the variation has its uses in certain matchups. Just can't execute it as well in practice without some pick me ups.

Ice burst with the aura on acting like the clone shatter wouldn't really make sense because the clone shatter projectile has a different animation than the aura shatter, which isn't even a projectile. If the aura shatter had the same animation as the clone shatter it would be pretty weird because the clone is a thick block of ice and the aura is thin enough to see through. Just OCD logic lol.

 

[Jynks]

The problem with unbreakable is that it is so unlike most of the other variation out there. Players that only look at "on paper" evaluation will find it lacking, but I feel that it is one of the more interesting long term variations for Sub that can only find power as the game gets older, as it relays on heavy match up knowledge and skilled play as it requires strong reads to pull off. I think it is a great choice against heavy rushdown characters. It dose decent damage meterless and can severely punish unchecked aggression, something many players are all about.

I agree with the OP, that this is a completely undervalued variation that is a lot better than people give it credit for. My bet is most of the people hating on it have hardly played it and that if the game goes long enough someone will pull it out one day and blow everyone minds.

 

[Kroaken]

The problem with unbreakable is that it is so unlike most of the other variation out there. Players that only look at "on paper" evaluation will find it lacking, but I feel that it is one of the more interesting long term variations for Sub that can only find power as the game gets older, as it relays on heavy match up knowledge and skilled play as it requires strong reads to pull off. I think it is a great choice against heavy rushdown characters. It dose decent damage meterless and can severely punish unchecked aggression, something many players are all about.

I agree with the OP, that this is a completely undervalued variation that is a lot better than people give it credit for. My bet is most of the people hating on it have hardly played it and that if the game goes long enough someone will pull it out one day and blow everyone minds.

A guy can certainly hope so. Thanks, Jynks.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

The problem with unbreakable is that it is so unlike most of the other variation out there. Players that only look at "on paper" evaluation will find it lacking, but I feel that it is one of the more interesting long term variations for Sub that can only find power as the game gets older, as it relays on heavy match up knowledge and skilled play as it requires strong reads to pull off. I think it is a great choice against heavy rushdown characters. It dose decent damage meterless and can severely punish unchecked aggression, something many players are all about.

I agree with the OP, that this is a completely undervalued variation that is a lot better than people give it credit for. My bet is most of the people hating on it have hardly played it and that if the game goes long enough someone will pull it out one day and blow everyone minds.

Name 3 winning matchups for unbreakable. Easily subs worst variation.

 

[Kroaken]

Name 3 winning matchups for unbreakable. Easily subs worst variation.

I would say any variation that gives gm trouble for thr most part. I know i enjoy unbreakable against war god and dvorah right off. But i havent faced masters of either so its hard to say. War god has a parryable gap after.. b12 i think into oh sword.

 

[Kroaken]

But as its been stated, he is still shy without a few key buffs mentioned above. And I wasnt a sub expert to begin with which is why I asked.

 

[Jynks]

I think that kind of thinking is counter productive. While tier lists are a thing, they are also a joke in many ways. MKx more than most games is about the players. Have you seen Reo's stream recently, he is absolutely kicking ass with Cyber-Sub at the moment. Winning FT10s with many top players using "op" characters. CSZ has been completely written off by the majority of the community in a kind of mass panic and the fact is he is still good, you just have to learn to play him. We have other top players kicking it with "low tier".

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I would say any variation that gives gm trouble for thr most part. I know i enjoy unbreakable against war god and dvorah right off. But i havent faced masters of either so its hard to say. War god has a parryable gap after.. b12 i think into oh sword.

There's no freakin way unbreakable beats Dvorah imo. GM does good against War God and better than UB could. I'm not trying to shit on you or anything, I really want UB to be good but I don't see it.

 

[Kroaken]

There's no freakin way unbreakable beats Dvorah imo. GM does good against War God and better than UB could. I'm not trying to shit on you or anything, I really want UB to be good but I don't see it.

Hey bud I totally understand where you're coming from. It's unproven for sure. I just think it has potential and isnt so far from being competitive as its currently written off as. A few more buffs come his way and he might be coming up to surpass Cryo. I definitely think its his coolest variation

 

[Kroaken]

There's no freakin way unbreakable beats Dvorah imo. GM does good against War God and better than UB could. I'm not trying to shit on you or anything, I really want UB to be good but I don't see it.

I was already wrong before in thinking that the freeze after slide was meterless. Thats why I brought this topic here. So it could be clarified.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Yeah I agree that with some changes he would be good. This was initially the variation I wanted to main before the game came out.

 

[Kroaken]

Yeah I agree that with some changes he would be good. This was initially the variation I wanted to main before the game came out.

Can't nerf my frost mask