Rant

[xWildx]

Because not everyone wants to play it at a competitive level. You may find this hard to believe, but casual players buying the game is what keeps the money rolling in for NRS/WB.

It was the highest selling game the few months after it's release. Topping out the big hitters, COD, Smash, Destiny etc.

They're selling millions of copies yet it's still 3rd place in the biggest FG tournament there is. That says they have a huge number of casuals buying the game.



Going back to the "we've lost something because we can't use them" thinking, instead of "look at all these extra things we can do on top of the default tournament standard variations".

There's no doubt customs would have been fun but there's 100% certainty there would be just as much, if not more complaining due to all the broken-ness that it would cause.



Which is why they have the set variations instead of a free for all choose your own character variation as a tournament standard where money is on the line.

We can complain as much as we want, but MK11 is the way it is. Maybe they should just drop all the extra variations and leave just variation #1... everyone would be happy, right?

Why did you quote me if you’re going to go out of your way to misinterpret what I said?

 

[jcbowie]

The "Full Characters" vs "Chopped up variations" talking point is so empty.

Actually go back and count how many special moves that characters had in MK9 and compare to MK11 variations.

There's overwhelmingly no significant difference.

I don't like this idea because the variation system and inability to incorporate SOME of these custom moves into a base design at best shows stagnation and at worst shows regression to a worse concept. Having deeper and more fully realized movelists wasn't the standard in those old games, you're right, but it would be a great showing of progress if the characters in this game had them.

"Expanding" the roster is totally debased by including sets of clone characters with either functionally identical toolsets or, equally commonly, with some key tools stripped from the variation, leading to the variation going generally unused.

 

[MagicMan357]

We all know for a fact that if kustoms were tournament viable we would never hear the end of how broken and stupid the game is and you same people would be crying for tournament variations

 

[spidey300]

They did rush the game out, just be happy it’s the last third of special moves coming out over time instead of character packs released over seasons

I could've held off mk11 for another year for fully fleshed out characters.

 

[spidey300]

I think it's a matter of perspective. I like the variation system because it gives the developers a chance to design moves with the freedom of just trying to make something fun or interesting, and not have to worry about balance. And then they can actually include the move in the game, instead of leaving it on the cutting room floor.

but it isn't just the variation system. it's variation system plus extra special moves. there's no reason for this. now they have to figure out how to balance these moves to make them viable for competitive variations.

 

[spidey300]

I get it man. I want full characters as well. No limitations but I gotta say they really have made this game far more balanced than MXK or MK9.
I think it might have been a good thing that they took the wait and see approach instead of just throwing everything in there unhinged.
I've been an advocate of customs since day 1 but I'm realizing that if it where that way we would have resets, infinites, blockstuns, vortexes and many more unbalanced things.

MKX for example had +20 on block cancels, true 50/50's that looped into 50/50's with some having tick throws on them, HTBs, Resets, Unblockables and you name it all on a single character.
In 11 all people can complain about is 9f mids, basic strike/throw mix that every fighting game has.

They are not perfect but I think the approach of MK11 they have kept most of what we complained about from MK9 & X out of this game and the slots are a way to limit characters brokeness possibility.
Every character can play Strike/Throw and that's what's important.

If I wanted anything in MK11 it would be more combo paths and opportunities to juggle longer.
Freedom to choose our moves but I feel that would require adjustment of many moves and slots.
Option to decline WiFi and ping above 100ms.
Hitboxes and Hurtboxes fixed across the cast.

I agree with most of this but I've heard that mk11 more balanced than mkx/mk9 statement too much. while that may be true it still doesn't hold any weight/it's not saying much. now we've got safe kinda stale mk11 instead of crazy frantic past mks. it's a good base but it still needs work

 

[spidey300]

The "Full Characters" vs "Chopped up variations" talking point is so empty.

Actually go back and count how many special moves that characters had in MK9 and compare to MK11 variations.

There's overwhelmingly no significant difference.

i'm not sure I understand. how can you say that? mk9 characters had some of their specials cut. mk11 gave them new specials.

 

[spidey300]

of course people would've complained about customs but it would have been fun anyway. people already complain now. who cares if they would've complained about customs? custom complains would've been better

 

[MagicMan357]

Any excuse to not admit being bad at mk11 LMFAO you guys will just never stop

 

[Marlow]

but it isn't just the variation system. it's variation system plus extra special moves. there's no reason for this. now they have to figure out how to balance these moves to make them viable for competitive variations.

They don't have to, though. They're being honest and upfront, some of those moves were specifically included just because the developers thought they were fun or interesting moves, even if they were too hard to make work for competitive variations. Now they're going back and trying to find a way to make some of those moves work in a competitive setting.

Again, I see it as a matter of perspective. It's not that we're missing out on moves, it's that we're getting extra moves.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

My only disappointment is that NRS went out of its way to design a fun system where we get to create special move loadouts, something that appears to permeate throughout the entire game as its core feature, only to gate them off in a single mode of the game that happens to get a lot of attention from very vocal people (competitors).

From a development standpoint it just really bothers me that all this work goes into moves that many of us don't even consider exist simply because they're not tournament viable, and I think that's a huge shame. I understand the reality of what it takes to actually manage this many abilities and such, so I get why they made the decision they did, but I'm still bummed about it.

i'm not sure I understand. how can you say that? mk9 characters had some of their specials cut. mk11 gave them new specials.

So I believe what he's referring to is this: the idea that if variations were gone we would suddenly be left with characters that are packed full of special moves because they're now "complete" is often the fantasy everyone who makes this comment is thinking. The problem with this is that it doesn't take the actual designer's strategy in mind; they can't just throw anything they want together and call it a character. I understand the frustration of losing your characters' signature attack to the variation system (Raiden teleport) but kitchen sink is also not the solution.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I agree with most of this but I've heard that mk11 more balanced than mkx/mk9 statement too much. while that may be true it still doesn't hold any weight/it's not saying much. now we've got safe kinda stale mk11 instead of crazy frantic past mks. it's a good base but it still needs work

MK9 wasn’t crazy frantic. It was actually a lot closer to MK11 than MKX. There were very few 50/50s mixups, neutral was important, no run button, and not a ton of gratuitous plus frames. The only reason it was crazy is that it was so unbalanced/broken.

 

[MagicMan357]

MK9 wasn’t crazy frantic. It was actually a lot closer to MK11 than MKX. There were very few 50/50s mixups, neutral was important, no run button, and not a ton of gratuitous plus frames. The only reason it was crazy is that it was so unbalanced/broken.

But remember how great p1 advantage was? With no trades and how only literally about 6 characters were viable? Yea that was so great dude!

 

[spidey300]

They don't have to, though. They're being honest and upfront, some of those moves were specifically included just because the developers thought they were fun or interesting moves, even if they were too hard to make work for competitive variations. Now they're going back and trying to find a way to make some of those moves work in a competitive setting.

Again, I see it as a matter of perspective. It's not that we're missing out on moves, it's that we're getting extra moves.

I get that but I just wish they hadn't did it at all. just need centered special moves and nothing extra that people clearly weren't with the idea of

 

[spidey300]

MK9 wasn’t crazy frantic. It was actually a lot closer to MK11 than MKX. There were very few 50/50s mixups, neutral was important, no run button, and not a ton of gratuitous plus frames. The only reason it was crazy is that it was so unbalanced/broken.

mk9 was pretty crazy with some of the seriously strong characters. you've got execution heavy kabal ndcs that you have to be on top of to maintain your pressure and combos or even sonya with her stance cancels. I'm not saying mk9 and mkx are like one and the same. just that they were pretty wild and creative for their playstyles.

 

[spidey300]

So I believe what he's referring to is this: the idea that if variations were gone we would suddenly be left with characters that are packed full of special moves because they're now "complete" is often the fantasy everyone who makes this comment is thinking. The problem with this is that it doesn't take the actual designer's strategy in mind; they can't just throw anything they want together and call it a character. I understand the frustration of losing your characters' signature attack to the variation system (Raiden teleport) but kitchen sink is also not the solution.

in some cases people couldn't even tell what their design strategy for some of these characters were and them flaking on customs and leaving the game with 2 competitive variations made some characters feel empty or like they really only had 1 variation.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

mk9 was pretty crazy with some of the seriously strong characters. you've got execution heavy kabal ndcs that you have to be on top of to maintain your pressure and combos or even sonya with her stance cancels. I'm not saying mk9 and mkx are like one and the same. just that they were pretty wild and creative for their playstyles.

I feel you. I think Military stance is much closer to something like Liu Kang's Shaolin stance though than anything in MKX. Kabal was obviously an egregious example, but that was basically a glitch that was exploited by people in combination with IAGB to create 9-1 and 8-2 MUs. Skarlet was intentional, so she's probably the best example.

 

[theotherguy]

creating moves for the sake of creating moves and stripping down characters is bullshit. even in this day and age characters in fighting games get at most 4-5 specials. i don't want to see other specials being created for the sake of creating specials and then cutting them off from certain modes or when they just throw together specials to hastily create variations because they can't balance customs

Again with the cutting & shit variations bla bla. I don't see why just because there's a few specials that can be used as an option they're seen as being chopped. They're not.

Kitana in UMK3 has less special moves than Fan Fare Kitana in MK11 but they are effectively the same character from that standpoint.

What's different is how NRS decided to make her play in the game. She had fan juggles and they took them away, and now it seems they're coming back. It isn't because of the moves she was given or taken away, it's because that's what NRS wanted to do with that character.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I agree with most of this but I've heard that mk11 more balanced than mkx/mk9 statement too much. while that may be true it still doesn't hold any weight/it's not saying much. now we've got safe kinda stale mk11 instead of crazy frantic past mks. it's a good base but it still needs work

Absolutely it needs work but some would have you believe MK11 is the brokest game in all of existence.

I'm personally hoping hitboxes and hurtboxes are adjusted. QOL changes for online ranked like ability to decline WiFi and ping above 100ms. Better ways to earn specific character gear and skins. Fix bad variations and abilities. Meter regen on specific powerful specials might need slight adjustments.
Not needed but I personally feel throw KB's do way too much damage I think 20-25% is best and should be dependent on strength and damage potential of the character, for example Geras, Liu and Nightwolf have way to many strengths to have 2 KB's on both throws. Stuff like that could change so much in a good way without destroying the strong characters.
The moment we strip the strong characters of all if their tools and bring them down to Kotal/kano status every character would be bland and kill the game.

Many of the suggestions I've seen to Nerf characters on TYM alone would gut them and drop them to bottom tier.
Just from seeing what was patched on previous MK's its known big changes or multiple changes to characters is generally unhealthy for the characters, meta and game. Its much better to do what NRS is implementing now by keeping the changes minor adjustments instead of hitting them hard. Like Liu Kang's F4 going from 9f to 11f seems small but is actually impactful while still keeping the character intact. Just like Jax's Fatal Blow from Mid to High or Jacquis clinch not getting 50+ oki off knee with high damage.

They all stay intact but get slightly toned down and adds counterplay without ruining their play style.

 

[spidey300]

Again with the cutting & shit variations bla bla. I don't see why just because there's a few specials that can be used as an option they're seen as being chopped. They're not.

Kitana in UMK3 has less special moves than Fan Fare Kitana in MK11 but they are effectively the same character from that standpoint.

What's different is how NRS decided to make her play in the game. She had fan juggles and they took them away, and now it seems they're coming back. It isn't because of the moves she was given or taken away, it's because that's what NRS wanted to do with that character.

You didn't just go back all the way to umk3 where some games had like the bare minimum of specials. I mean I've seen some people say they're not sure what nrs wants to do with kitana. Taking away combo paths shouldn't be one of them. One of the issues with mk11. Nrs seems to have questionable design choices for characters sometimes

 

[spidey300]

Absolutely it needs work but some would have you believe MK11 is the brokest game in all of existence.

I'm personally hoping hitboxes and hurtboxes are adjusted. QOL changes for online ranked like ability to decline WiFi and ping above 100ms. Better ways to earn specific character gear and skins. Fix bad variations and abilities. Meter regen on specific powerful specials might need slight adjustments.
Not needed but I personally feel throw KB's do way too much damage I think 20-25% is best and should be dependent on strength and damage potential of the character, for example Geras, Liu and Nightwolf have way to many strengths to have 2 KB's on both throws. Stuff like that could change so much in a good way without destroying the strong characters.
The moment we strip the strong characters of all if their tools and bring them down to Kotal/kano status every character would be bland and kill the game.

Many of the suggestions I've seen to Nerf characters on TYM alone would gut them and drop them to bottom tier.
Just from seeing what was patched on previous MK's its known big changes or multiple changes to characters is generally unhealthy for the characters, meta and game. Its much better to do what NRS is implementing now by keeping the changes minor adjustments instead of hitting them hard. Like Liu Kang's F4 going from 9f to 11f seems small but is actually impactful while still keeping the character intact. Just like Jax's Fatal Blow from Mid to High or Jacquis clinch not getting 50+ oki off knee with high damage.

They all stay intact but get slightly toned down and adds counterplay without ruining their play style.

I'm all for healthy changes to the game without gutting characters. Some people just lose sight of things when they're losing and scream nerf but some characters could benefit from being stronger

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I'm all for healthy changes to the game without gutting characters. Some people just lose sight of things when they're losing and scream nerf but some characters could benefit from being stronger

YeaH Im actually happy with how NRS has approached balancing so far. So much different from MKX approach where characters got 20+ frame data changes on top if several special moves being changed dramatically.
Remember Kitana going from bottom tier to top tier or Cyrax going from top tier to low tier in a single patch.

There is stuff that needs adjustment but I like the minor changes to characters.

 

[spidey300]

YeaH Im actually happy with how NRS has approached balancing so far. So much different from MKX approach where characters got 20+ frame data changes on top if several special moves being changed dramatically.
Remember Kitana going from bottom tier to top tier or Cyrax going from top tier to low tier in a single patch.

There is stuff that needs adjustment but I like the minor changes to characters.

I think there's still been a couple knee jerk reaction changes but at least they're playing it safe.