Match-up Discussion Raiden Matchup Discussion Thread

[Konqrr]

I realize that there might be a matchup thread already in this forum, but the point of this thread is to discuss matchups to make the Matchup Chart as accurate as possible.

The Matchup Chart thread:
http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?3075-Mortal-Kombat-(2011)-Matchup-Chart

When you discuss or list what you think the matchups are, please do so in alphabetical order. Also, they should be listed in either whole numbers or .5 notations.

The current Matchup Chart for Raiden is as follows:
7-3 vs Baraka
6-4 vs Cyber Sub-Zero
6-4 vs Cyrax
7-3 vs Ermac
xxx vs Freddy Krueger
6-4 vs Jade
7-3 vs Jax
5-5 vs Johnny Cage
5-5 vs Kabal
5-5 vs Kano
xxx vs Kenshi
6-4 vs Kitana
5-5 vs Kung Lao
6-4 vs Liu Kang
5-5 vs Mileena
6-4 vs Nightwolf
7-3 vs Noob Saibot
7-3 vs Quan Chi
xxx vs Rain
4-6 vs Reptile
6-4 vs Scorpion
6-4 vs Sektor
7-3 vs Shang Tsung
7-3 vs Sheeva
7-3 vs Sindel
xxx vs Skarlet
6-4 vs Smoke
6-4 vs Sonya Blade
6-4 vs Stryker
5-5 vs Sub-Zero

Agree? Disagree? DISCUSS!

 

[Jet3000]

Raiden Loses to Reptile can some one explain that to me

 

[Raiman]

Raiden Loses to Reptile can some one explain that to me

1. Raidens Superman linked after a F+2,4 string doesn't work on Reptile, if Superman and Elbow Dash are done at the same time after this string Raiden and Reptile will go right past each other, this takes away a big part of Raidens pressure game because a smart Reptile knows this and will never do anything after F+2,4 but block or dash, putting you in a lose lose situation.

2. Vicinity Blast wiffs when Reptile is blocking during it so his block infinate doesn't work. Also, he cant link in Vicinity Blast after any blocked combo to continue pressure. For example, 3,3,4, Vicinity Blast has major advantage on block on most characters but not Reptile (and a few others), so again that takes away another huge part of Raidens pressure game, you'll have to burn meter on an EX Vicinity blast against reptile.

3. Raidens last main pressure method is to Teleport in between strings to create a guessing game, well Reptiles dash is so fast that its fairly easy to punish Raidens Teleport even if its during a blocked string. I get punished by Elbow dash about 50 to 60% of the time when I try it against a good Reptile. And thats about all Raidens pressure completely shut down.

*** I did find out however that after a F+2,4 string you can do B+3,2,1 and it will hit reptile and you don't have to dash or move forward at all, so all though the Superman method doesn't work so well, this method does. I have no idea if this can be interupted, but I've never played against a Reptile that gets a Dash in before I can do B+3 if I time it right, so thats how I continue pressure against Reptile, but either way thats only 1 of 4 ways that work against Reptile.

NOTE: This method above doesn't work on all characters either, but heres the awesome part, although the Vicinity Blast pressure doesn't work on characters like Quan Chi, Reptile, Scorpion, and so on, the B+3,2,1 pressure does. The only character where neither Vicinity Blast pressure or the B+3,1,2 pressure works on is Cyrax. Everey other character you can do either/or , or both.
For example:

Reptile: - Vicinity Blast pressure doesn't work, B+3,1,2 pressure does.

Kung Lao: - Vicinity Blast pressure does work, B+3,1,2 pressure doesn't.

Sub-Zero (many others): - Both work

Cyrax (only): - Neither work

 

[Insane j]

can someone comment on:

5-5 vs Sub-Zero

becouse I think this should be 6:4 (especially online)

 

[Raiman]

can someone comment on:

5-5 vs Sub-Zero

becouse I think this should be 6:4 (especially online)

I think it comes down to Sub Zero walking in front of a clone making Raiden not able to teleport

 

[Insane j]

I think it comes down to Sub Zero walking in front of a clone making Raiden not able to teleport

Smart Raidnes will not spam teleport, and you can't keep clone up 100% of the time. I guess this is based to offline play, where you can easyer pusnih Raiden's telport. Becouse it's not easy to punih his teleport online. at least not for me.

 

[RWDY Nori]

can someone comment on:

5-5 vs Sub-Zero

becouse I think this should be 6:4 (especially online)

I am very familiar w/this matchup, so I can help

Clone. Yes, clone is great against Raiden, all Sub has to do is walk in front and automatically, you can now approach Raiden. SZ can start spamming 2, 2 if he guess a teleport. Raiden can bait and sweep, but SZ can guess a teleport also and slide to beat the whiff. This entire match is 50/50 for both chars. Once SZ makes a mistake, Raiden can just run away the entire time and win, easily. However, if Raiden makes a mistake, all SZ has to do is hide behind the clones and bait an impatient superman or another mistake. It's a pretty fun match actually as SZ


FYI, matchups are never based off of anything that happens online

 

[Insane j]

well every time I fight any good Raiden, he is just waiting my Ice ball and tele on reaction. Or he is simply not spaming tele and just plays around. I fell so strange as Sub vs Raiden. And it's rly hard to punish tele. If I let my Block, I will eat Superman, If not, I can't punish tele. (speaking about online)

 

[Raidenwins]

can someone comment on:

5-5 vs Sub-Zero

becouse I think this should be 6:4 (especially online)

This match-up is not 5-5. It's 6-4 in Raiden's favor, at least. The Ice Clone strategy only works in theory. In practice you just can't keep a clone up long enough and often enough to make it an effective tactic against Raiden. Also, Raiden can teleport on reaction as soon as Sub-Zero clones and punish him. Raiden's Ex-Electric Fly has infinite armor, i.e. it goes through any number of Ice Clones and Ice Balls. From a distance all Raiden has to do is block low and he shuts down Sub-Zero completely, so if Raiden has an advantage in health and decides to turtle it's very difficult for Sub-Zero to get in close because he has to take chances with block dashing and jumping and even if he does not get punished in the process and actually gets in on Raiden, Raiden can just teleport and turtle again.

Sub-Zero cannot easily corner pressure Raiden. Even if he clones and decides to walk through his clone towards Raiden, Raiden can do air Electric Fly and escape. Up close Sub-Zero can't clone and his Ice Ball and Slide are very punishable on block. 2, 2 is not guaranteed when Raiden teleports. Raiden can simply teleport and hold block.

Raiden has superior Wake-Up options as well. Sub-Zero's Slide is his best wake-up but it's easy to read and punishable by full combo on block, while Raiden can effectively mix-up teleport, Ex-Electric Fly, and Ex-Shocker.

Sub-Zero is my secondary character and I play him a lot. I just don't see him being on an equal footing with Raiden.

 

[King]

Raiden v Noob Saibot is an 8-2 matchup. I main Noob Saibot and I have a friend who is a good Raiden player. I only win when he gets predictable with his teleports and I can anticipate them. If I can't anticipate them, I'm screwed.

Also, from midscreen, Raiden can punish Noob's clones on block with a superman. From fullscreen, Raiden can teleport on reaction to a clone and punish Noob with a full combo or at least a superman. These supermans push Noob Saibot really far into the corner where the matchup becomes 9.5-.5 for Noob.

 

[69beastlyninja]

So Reptile is Raiden's only bad matchup? I'm not surprised that he only has one bad matchup but I'm surprised that it is Reptile. It seems like it would be partially in Raiden's favor or equal as he takes away any forceball spam with enhanced electric fly or teleport. I am just learning Raiden though so I'm not really sure. Since Reptile can easily punish Raiden's teleport with dash, would an enhanced teleport to superman work, or can Reptile recover from his dash fast enough to block?

 

[Rodnigh]

most people are saying that sub can punish raidens teleport, which is true, but it only works if you are just standing there not doing anything which if thats the case you are wide open for the the superman. secondly a good raiden is going to wait until you make a move before he teleports and then punish

 

[MKF30]

A good Ermac will give Raiden trouble....so I definitely don't agree with the 7-3 in Raiden's favor, I think it's in his favor but maybe 6-4 or 5-4, any blocked superman and he'll eat damage from Ermac. Speaking as an Ermac player who's played every good Raiden on xbox and as a Raiden player myself.

He matches up well against virtually everyone, although KL gives him trouble but then KL gives everyone trouble lol

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

This match-up is not 5-5. It's 6-4 in Raiden's favor, at least. The Ice Clone strategy only works in theory. In practice you just can't keep a clone up long enough and often enough to make it an effective tactic against Raiden. Also, Raiden can teleport on reaction as soon as Sub-Zero clones and punish him. Raiden's Ex-Electric Fly has infinite armor, i.e. it goes through any number of Ice Clones and Ice Balls. From a distance all Raiden has to do is block low and he shuts down Sub-Zero completely, so if Raiden has an advantage in health and decides to turtle it's very difficult for Sub-Zero to get in close because he has to take chances with block dashing and jumping and even if he does not get punished in the process and actually gets in on Raiden, Raiden can just teleport and turtle again.

Sub-Zero cannot easily corner pressure Raiden. Even if he clones and decides to walk through his clone towards Raiden, Raiden can do air Electric Fly and escape. Up close Sub-Zero can't clone and his Ice Ball and Slide are very punishable on block. 2, 2 is not guaranteed when Raiden teleports. Raiden can simply teleport and hold block.

Raiden has superior Wake-Up options as well. Sub-Zero's Slide is his best wake-up but it's easy to read and punishable by full combo on block, while Raiden can effectively mix-up teleport, Ex-Electric Fly, and Ex-Shocker.

Sub-Zero is my secondary character and I play him a lot. I just don't see him being on an equal footing with Raiden.

it goes both ways. You are only seeing this matchup in your "Raiden's" eyes. If Sub gets a life lead... then Raiden has to come get him. Raiden isn't a good character to simply dash in to apply pressure. His teleport is easily stuffed by 2,2 or slide. Raidens' block strings have to be cut short if he teleports on reaction to a clone... because he will actually push himself into it. He can't superman when clone is up, again he will go RIGHT into it.
This matchup is all about reads and gaining a respectable life lead.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

A good Ermac will give Raiden trouble....so I definitely don't agree with the 7-4 in Raiden's favor, I think it's in his favor but maybe 6-4 or 5-4, any blocked superman and he'll eat damage from Ermac. Speaking as an Ermac player who's played every good Raiden on xbox and as a Raiden player myself.

He matches up well against virtually everyone, although KL gives him trouble but then KL gives everyone trouble lol

5-4??? WHAT!!!! OMG how do i handle the other point? I bet it teleported out of the matchup!!!
I don't think ermac is helpless against Raiden either... 7-3 is probably too steep.

 

[MKF30]

Well...Maybe not 5-4, but definitely not 7-3 way too steep, I agree....most Ermac players besides myself I've asked also told me they'd rather face Raiden over KL(at least the ones I've asked lol)....Ermac can seriously punish Raiden on a blocked Superman, and if they both teleport at the same time Ermac can hit him often I've noticed lol.

 

[RWDY Nori]

This match-up is not 5-5. It's 6-4 in Raiden's favor, at least. The Ice Clone strategy only works in theory. In practice you just can't keep a clone up long enough and often enough to make it an effective tactic against Raiden. Also, Raiden can teleport on reaction as soon as Sub-Zero clones and punish him. Raiden's Ex-Electric Fly has infinite armor, i.e. it goes through any number of Ice Clones and Ice Balls. From a distance all Raiden has to do is block low and he shuts down Sub-Zero completely, so if Raiden has an advantage in health and decides to turtle it's very difficult for Sub-Zero to get in close because he has to take chances with block dashing and jumping and even if he does not get punished in the process and actually gets in on Raiden, Raiden can just teleport and turtle again.

Sub-Zero cannot easily corner pressure Raiden. Even if he clones and decides to walk through his clone towards Raiden, Raiden can do air Electric Fly and escape. Up close Sub-Zero can't clone and his Ice Ball and Slide are very punishable on block. 2, 2 is not guaranteed when Raiden teleports. Raiden can simply teleport and hold block.

Raiden has superior Wake-Up options as well. Sub-Zero's Slide is his best wake-up but it's easy to read and punishable by full combo on block, while Raiden can effectively mix-up teleport, Ex-Electric Fly, and Ex-Shocker.

Sub-Zero is my secondary character and I play him a lot. I just don't see him being on an equal footing with Raiden.

This match is very 5-5

-SZ's iceclone protects him very, very well. He can clone and hide in it and duck. What will you do? Throw out Superman and eat an entire reset? Teleport into it? Throw out a fireball that can easily be ducked? Raiden has to guess and burn meter to get in on SZ.

-SZ has superior normals. 22 is amazing. His D4 is better also. In order to beat this, Raiden has to back up and start B3 to bait out a whiff. If he teleports and backs up, SZ can slide. This is a guessing game that will go on the entire match.

-When SZ's back is in the corner, he is at advantage. Again, all he has to do is ice clone and hide inside it. SZ can also Ice Clone, walk in front of it and bait out a teleport.

-No good SZ, ever, will randomly throw out an iceball asking to be punished. Since you play SZ, you should know hit confirming 22 to iceball is very easy

-There is no "only in theory" about SZ's ice clone. Do it yourself against anybody who plays Raiden, it's very easy. Do the clone, walk forward. Not hard at all. Or, do the clone, walk inside the clone, and duck block.


Raiden, on paper, is the second best in the game. Keyword, on paper since no Raiden besides JOP has made a dent in majors yet. However, for a fact, every SZ player will tell you, Raiden vs SZ is very even. If SZ makes a mistake, he has to chase Raiden and take risks to get in. If Raiden makes the first mistake, have fun getting in on SZ. This match is very boring at the highest level

 

[shoshinsha]

I agree that Raiden-Sub is a close match, but I think the ice clone game is overrated. It's so easy to punish an ice clone with a teleport or even ex superman on REACTION that it hardly bears mentioning. If Sub successfully gets one on screen, it can cause Raiden problems. But the slightest miscalculation in doing so will cost him both health and fight momentum, and it's terribly difficult for Sub to get Raiden off of him once he's caught in pressure.

 

[RWDY Nori]

It's so easy to punish an ice clone with a teleport or even ex superman on REACTION

I don't believe you or any other Raiden is punishing ice clone on reaction, especially the fact when you teleport, you're at disadvantage. I've fought this match at least 100 times against good and bad offline raidens and never once was it punished "on reaction". It's not that I don't believe you can't, I'm saying it's not possible, at all

Also, what significant pressure can Raiden to that SZ can't answer for? What will he do, teleport mixup? I (and other SZ players) love when a Raiden rushes down, gets impatient and teleports. If I read that teleport, 22 is free for me and you lose almost half life if you don't have a breaker. And let me be clear now, you don't "react" to teleport either, you anticipate it.

SZ vs Raiden is by and far a 5-5 match, anybody who has played a good sz and good raiden will automatically see this

 

[shoshinsha]

I don't believe you or any other Raiden is punishing ice clone on reaction, especially the fact when you teleport, you're at disadvantage. I've fought this match at least 100 times against good and bad offline raidens and never once was it punished "on reaction". It's not that I don't believe you can't, I'm saying it's not possible, at all

Also, what significant pressure can Raiden to that SZ can't answer for? What will he do, teleport mixup? I (and other SZ players) love when a Raiden rushes down, gets impatient and teleports. If I read that teleport, 22 is free for me and you lose almost half life if you don't have a breaker. And let me be clear now, you don't "react" to teleport either, you anticipate it.

SZ vs Raiden is by and far a 5-5 match, anybody who has played a good sz and good raiden will automatically see this

When you see a clone, you can choose to ex superman through it and you will hit, or if you're relatively close, you can even tag him with a lightning bolt. But the safest thing to do is teleport, after which you get a free block string or throw attempt. Basically, because Sub's main specials (clone and ice ball) are so slow, Raiden can teleport in during them and still have advantage as long as the Raiden player has good reactions. Now Sub can fake those things to try and bait a teleport, but that just gets into the guessing game that has nothing to do with the character matchup and everything to do with the players behind the controls. I totally agree with you that an impatient Raiden plays right into Sub's hands, but a good Raiden is not impatient and will not let Sub pressure him in that way, since he can get out of most pressure situations pretty freely.

 

[RWDY Nori]

No, when you SEE a clone, you do not have time to EX Superman. If you SEE a clone, and if you teleport, SZ DOES have time to 22 you or slide. This is a fact, not an opinion. If you are talking about the matchup, you have to talk about both sides of it. If Raiden has a life lead, all he has to do is run away the entire match. If SZ has a life lead, Raiden has to be very careful.

Any SZ that is smart will not just randomly throw out iceballs, I'm not sure what kind of competition you are playing. As a matter of fact, SZ will ONLY do iceball after he is hit confirming a combo, as Raiden can EASILY teleport through it or ex superman through it. Again, SZ has better range on his normals also. His D4 is excellent. He can even D4 into clone, or D3 into clone to really trick the Raiden and then walk forward. I have never seen 2 good raidens/szs fight where either char has an adv.


If you could record a match between you and a good SZ, I would love to see exactly what you are talking about, because you would be the only human being on earth who is pulling this off

 

[shoshinsha]

I'm not talking about Sub putting a clone out strategically, such as d4~clone or 224~clone. I'm talking about when both characters are at neutral, watching each other and deciding how to make a move. In that condition (which, in my experience, can happen fairly often), Sub takes a big risk just putting out anything but normal pokes and block strings. His specials are a big risk in any kind of open space, while Raiden's are still very useful. That's one of the reasons why a patient Raiden does well in this matchup.

 

[RWDY Nori]

I'm not talking about Sub putting a clone out strategically, such as d4~clone or 224~clone. I'm talking about when both characters are at neutral, watching each other and deciding how to make a move. In that condition (which, in my experience, can happen fairly often), Sub takes a big risk just putting out anything but normal pokes and block strings. His specials are a big risk in any kind of open space, while Raiden's are still very useful. That's one of the reasons why a patient Raiden does well in this matchup.

What you are not grasping is, a high level SZ will never, ever just walk up to you in close range and throw out a clone. Even then, you cannot react with a superman to this, you will eat damage and get blown up. If you teleport and try to "react" to his clone, you will get blown up by 22. I don't think you've fought a high level SZ, cause nothing you are suggesting about the SZ sounds like high level play. When people ask about matchups, it's assumed both are using their tools and being smart, certainly not doing silly things like throwing out iceballs. If your local comp is letting you teleport and they aren't reacting to your teleports and not blocking your supermans, then I understand why you think the way you do.


I'll be more than happy to post up vids of myself vs a good raiden so you see exactly what I'm talking about, and his reaction time is good enough to get him to soul calibur 4 nationals, so reaction time is not an issue for this guy.

 

[greeneless]

A good Ermac will give Raiden trouble....so I definitely don't agree with the 7-3 in Raiden's favor, I think it's in his favor but maybe 6-4 or 5-4, any blocked superman and he'll eat damage from Ermac. Speaking as an Ermac player who's played every good Raiden on xbox and as a Raiden player myself.

He matches up well against virtually everyone, although KL gives him trouble but then KL gives everyone trouble lol

Agree, no way its 7-3. I can see 6-4, since raiden is a monster, but I play LK and ermac and find myself a lot more comfortable with ermac against raiden than I do with kang. Raiden cant risk having the fly blocked into easy 35 damage

 

[shoshinsha]

What you are not grasping is, a high level SZ will never, ever just walk up to you in close range and throw out a clone. Even then, you cannot react with a superman to this, you will eat damage and get blown up. If you teleport and try to "react" to his clone, you will get blown up by 22. I don't think you've fought a high level SZ, cause nothing you are suggesting about the SZ sounds like high level play. When people ask about matchups, it's assumed both are using their tools and being smart, certainly not doing silly things like throwing out iceballs. If your local comp is letting you teleport and they aren't reacting to your teleports and not blocking your supermans, then I understand why you think the way you do.


I'll be more than happy to post up vids of myself vs a good raiden so you see exactly what I'm talking about, and his reaction time is good enough to get him to soul calibur 4 nationals, so reaction time is not an issue for this guy.

Let me try to be clear again: in a NEUTRAL situation--that is a situation where there is nothing on screen (clones, projectiles, etc.) and nobody is particularly on offense or defense--then Sub's arsenal becomes more limited than Raiden's. He has to approach directly (no teleport or safe movement specials) and he can't throw projectiles or drop random clones from any range without giving up advantage. If, during his approach, he does anything besides dash block or throw out his fastest normals, he gives Raiden an opening. Literally, to take the advantage from a neutral position, Sub has to walk in and poke with normals, or bait out an unsafe teleport/superman (which would indicate an inferior Raiden player, anyway).

On the flip side, Raiden's entire arsenal has uses from the neutral game. His teleport, his superman, even his projectile and vicinity blast are useful against Sub. I acknowledge and agree with your point that once the two start to mix it up, when attacks start to get thrown and so on, then Sub's options open up considerably. But Raiden's NEUTRAL game is considerably superior. The reason this is so important is that Raiden can reset the situation to neutral multiple times a round, by teleporting, whiffing or landing a superman mid-screen, etc.