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Strategy Pushing to the Corner With Joker

insomnia_ftw

It's simple.. We normalize the superman.
I've noticed that Joker's set ups aren't 100% scary unless you have the opponent stuck in the corner where they can't roll, backdash, or jump back effectively. So here are some tidbits of info that may help you if you are trying to get your opponent to the corner:

Throw:
I noticed that Joker's back throw (I guess technically it's neutral throw?) puts your opponent much farther away than the forward throw. This obviously is easiest to use if you have your back to the nearest corner. If you are facing the nearest corner, you can do a crossup j2 (it has to get blocked I think) and then throw them backwards toward the corner. This is much better if you're opponent blocks a MB low canister, because you get a (pretty much) free jump in afterward.

113 xx gun:
I don't know if there are any combos for midscreen that start with 113 (in the corner you can connect with low canister), but if you cancel the last hit into gunshot the pushback is really good. Since the 3 makes the opponent bounce, they are airborne, and the gun has great pushback if you hit someone in the air. This string is pretty good for catching people blocking low, but people will wise up to it quickly. This may work better if you use b1 a lot to condition people into blocking low. If you see the person block the 3, you can still use the gun to backdash but i'm not sure how safe that is.

212 xx gun:
Similar to 113, the last hit of this string sends the opponent airborne so adding a gunshot will carry them even farther. Canceling the gunshot into a forward dash will allow you to stay right on top of your opponent to continue pressure if you want to sacrifice distance for positioning.

This is best used if you only land the last hit. If you already get the first two hits, you're probably better off just canceling into low canister and going into your bnb.

Ending juggle combos with gun:
A lot of Joker's bnbs end with acid flower. If you are trying to carry the opponent to the corner, try ending with gun if you can. It may or may not sacrifice some damage, but it adds much more carry distance to your combo. Joker's combos already cover a lot of distance, so ending with gun makes them push the opponent even farther. You then have at least enough time to dash once safely (probably twice depending on if they have a fast advancing wakeup).

b2:
Not too useful of a move, but it's important to note how much it knocks the opponent back (pretty far). I think it pushes back almost as much as if you landed one of the gunshots described above. The startup isn't that bad, so it's pretty easy to catch people blocking low. This also works better if you have been poking with b1 to get your opponent used to crouching.


I'm not trying to pass this off as anything universally useful. These are just little things that may be useful depending on your style of play. I generally try to force the opponent into the corner and then play defense and do setups to keep them there. If you are fighting a character with a fast teleport, this is all pointless and you'll have to play completely different. We might as well talk more about meta game strategy though, since Joker's tools are really subjective to what matchup you are up against.

What do you guys think? Or better, what gameplan do you guys have going into a match? Is corner pressure valuable enough to consider any of these?
StevoSuprem0
Gilbagz
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Good stuff :). My go to strings for pushing people to the corner are 212 xx gun since it's the most diverse BnB starter, as well as 113 xx gun as you suggested because 1 is a faster startup than 2 for a faster ground game. B2 is slow, but good mixup so if you use it sparingly, people are often caught off guard because they will be expecting b13. Using the gun to cancel like this also adds another layer to your game because you can dash cancel it. This isn't safe on block, and doesn't push them to the corner when you hit with the string, but it closes the gap and keeps ground pressure on, and alot of people are generally thrown off by it. So on hit, you can do something like 212 xx gun dash cancel, and be right there as they are standing up to come in with a b13 or 113 and repeat or push them to the corner. This is something I've been trying to incorporate more, but haven't had much time to play lately :(, so I can't really comment on how effective it is in practice. It did relatively well the few times I tested it though!
Anyway, the corner is very important for Joker, as it is the only place where his mindgames have no guaranteed escape routes and can get some really serious damage and resets rolling.
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
Yeah good shit man. A lot of Joker's stuff normals and specials give a crap load of wall carry.
Crowbar in particular, although its mega punishable pretty much knocks into the corner from midscreen if you end a combo with it on smaller stages.
So yeah it is super viable to sacrifice damage to get that extra wall carry. In most scenarios as well when you find yourself close to the corner, you'll have to modify your combo anyway to keep them in the corner.

It is match up specific though cuz with some match ups, e.g black adam you dont want to give them too much space otherwise they can threaten with dive kick out of the corner. Similarly, for zoners you dont want to give them too much space cuz gun shot enders do knock far away. For these particular match ups, like steve said its good to incorporate gunshot cancels. Personally i end most combos with 2,1 gun shot cancel to stay directly on them.

Edit: Also while the corner is mega important, with the new midscreen bnb. Joker has similar options midscreen. Again though this is match up specific. Which i'll do a full write up on later on
 

insomnia_ftw

It's simple.. We normalize the superman.
Ah yeah I totally forgot that the last 2 in 212 makes them airborne, so the gun sends them just as far. That would probably only be worth it if they blocked everything but the last hit. If you land the 21, you might as well go for the combo right? The bnb carries pretty far itself.

Whether or not you want to gun dash to stay on people depends on who you are fighting. If you shoot them, you have enough time to dash up two (mayyyybe three) times anyway and get to about sweep distance before they can wakeup. I prefer to do this rather than stay in peoples' faces. That's just because I try to space people out with d3, b1, and d2.

Is there anything else, besides 212, that let's you cancel into teeth safely on block? I get away with cancelling a blocked d2 into teeth a lot. Same with b1, although that's just because I do b13 enough to make them expect the overhead. I feel like I should constantly have teeth out while playing the neutral game since it forces people to reconsider their approach (obviously this just doesn't apply to certain MU's). What are the best ways to throw out teeth without getting a knockdown?
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
212 is the only truly safe option (as far as I know at least). Ji3, b1, 323, and d2 are all hard to punish, but I think alot of characters can do so. I haven't had much time to play lately (nor will I through most of September:oops:) but throw lex on corps charge reversal, see what you find, and let us know!!!
 

OnlineRon91

Joker++
I was in the lab trying to find out the best way to get someone in the corner. I tested these against Batgirl on the Rooftop Stage, starting from the first black line before the Regime logo. From that line (Which is about the center) to the corner is roughly 4.5 lines. I dashed forward before performing these (as most of these would not land if your not next to them). I listed them from least to greatest distance covered.

b2 = 1.5 lines (11% Damage)
213 = 1.625 (13%) Hard KD
bf3 (and mb) = 1.75 [9% (14%)] Hard KD
33 = 1.875 (16%)

113 xx bf3= 2.375 [15% (20%)] Hard KD
f232 xx bf3 = 2.375 [16% (21%)] Hard KD
32 xx bf3 = 2.375 [19% (24%)] Hard KD
212 xx df1 = 2.875 (18%)

Anti-Air d2, ji2, 212 xx df1 = 3.125 (20%)
Anti-Air ji2, 212 xx df1 = 3.125 (23%)
Anti-Air d2 xx db3f, ji2, db3f, ji3, db3f, 213 = 3.125 (31%) Really Hard KD
b3, d2 xx db3f, ji2, db3f, 213 = 3.5 (29%) Really Hard KD
21 xx db2mb, b3, d2 xx db3f, ji2, db3f, 213 = 3.875 (35%) Really Hard KD

f3, ji2, 212 xx df1 = 4 (29%)
b3, ji2, 212 xx df1 = 4.25 (29%)
ji2, 32 xx db2mb, b3, d2 xx db3f, ji2, db3f, 213 = 4.375 (43%) Really Hard KD

Note that some of these can be tech rolled, which in our case is a good thing because they will move themselves closer to the corner. Most of these combos can be started off with ji2, which will of course carry them further.
 

insomnia_ftw

It's simple.. We normalize the superman.
I was in the lab trying to find out the best way to get someone in the corner. I tested these on the Rooftop Stage, starting from the first black line before the Regime logo. From the logo to the center is roughly 4.5 lines. I listed these from least to greatest distance covered.

b2 = 1.5 lines
213 = 1.625
bf3 (inc. mb version) = 1.75
33 = 1.875
113 xx bf3 (inc. mb version)= 2.375
212 xx df1 = 2.875
ji2, 32 xx bf3 (inc. mb version) = 2.875
ji2, 32 xx db2mb, b3, d2 xx db3f, ji2, db3f, 213 = 4.375 (CORNERED) ;)

Note that some of these can be tech rolled, which in our case is a good thing because they will move themselves closer to the corner.
Hell yes, you did the actual science and recorded quantifiable data rather than my "it pushes them pretty far" results. Good shit, i'll try to use the same method for some of the things I mentioned up top. Finding the most effective ways of getting an opponent into the corner in any situation will be really helpful since Joker can wreck shit once he's there.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Does anyone know if tech rolling distances are different from character to character?
I'm pretty sure it's a stock animation used across the board, but it might vary slightly based on the characters hitbox. Other than that, the distance should be constant. I could be wrong though! >.>
 

OnlineRon91

Joker++
I'm pretty sure it's a stock animation used across the board, but it might vary slightly based on the characters hitbox. Other than that, the distance should be constant. I could be wrong though! >.>

Alrighty, yea I wont waste my time looking up how many lines does roll measure lmao I was just wondering. As long as we know that back rolling isn't a a loss for us in the long run since they are furthering their demise.