General/Other - D'Vorah Proposed D'Vorah Buffs

[HoneyBee]

Now before TYM crucifies me for creating this thread, I am NOT referring to Swarm Queen D'Vorah and that is more or less a point in itself as to why these buffs are necessary. When we talk about a character, we often think about their strongest variation and completely disregard the weaker ones. Is that acceptable? I think all variations of every character should be tournament viable and unfortunately that's not the case for D'Vorah. The same thing could be said for characters such as Gunslinger EB, Hat Trick KL, MOS Raiden etc etc but I'm just going to focus on D'Vorah.

Right now, I think it's safe to say that D'Vorah's lack of a good armor move to wake up, get out of pressure, punish gaps etc. is her biggest weakness. Her EX Ovipositor is her only armor move which has 20 frames of start up, does 10.60% damage on hit and is -12 on block with little to no push back. A good armor move is something that should be available to her in at least one different variation.

Venomous

- Universal change where opponents can no longer mash reversal specials while holding the block button. (This would help a lot against characters like Shinnok for example that can just mash hell spark while blocking bug spray for a guaranteed punish.)
- EX Ovipositor start up is reduced from 20 start up frames to 12
- EX Ovipositor now launches the opponent
- EX Ovipositor on block is now -15 up from -12

Brood Mother

- Bug Blast (projectile) start up is reduced from 28 frames to 20 frames
- Low Krawler cool down reduced from 5 seconds to 3 seconds
- Low Krawler can now be held back and released when the player chooses

Those are all the changes I think are necessary to make D'Vorah's other variations tournament viable. As it stands now, her only useful variation in a tournament setting is Swarm Queen which I currently rank in the 7-9 range. It's good and I wouldn't ask for buffs for that variation nor do I think it requires any nerfs. It's perfect as is.

 

[ZATA]

EX crawler explode or something like that

 

[KIllaByte]

I think it's too late to remove the mashability of reversals... that's part of the game for me now, at least. You'll see on Saturday.
That said, I agree with your ideology and would love to see a perfect variations system, but ex ovipositor being 12 frames and lauching would be horrifying, it would give venomous dvorah actual damage off of F1, F2,and B1, damage being the thing I think she's supposed to not have outside of poison stacking.

 

[SaltShaker]

While some are out there dying of starvation, unable to eat for days at a time, there are others who need rib-eye steak to go side by side with their lobster fresh from the sea when they aren't even hungry.

 

[Derptile]

@AllTheGoroPlayers

 

[ZATA]

F42 is too slow imo

 

[Generalbit]

While some are out there dying of starvation, unable to eat for days at a time, there are others who need rib-eye steak to go side by side with their lobster fresh from the sea when they aren't even hungry.

This is perfect

 

[tatterbug4]

Brood mother would be so cool.

Tbh I don't know if I'd play the others much because I love Dvorah's run cancel combos.

 

[HoneyBee]

While some are out there dying of starvation, unable to eat for days at a time, there are others who need rib-eye steak to go side by side with their lobster fresh from the sea when they aren't even hungry.

lol I agree with the metaphor but I would like NRS to address ALL the characters/variations which includes weaker variations of top tier characters.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

Agreed about Brood Mother

 

[JTB123]

I always loved the design of Venomous and over the past week began putting serious time into that variation so I'll throw in my two pennies, curious to hear your thoughts. @HoneyBee

I agree on the reversal thing across the board, I think that is an issue across the board though and not necessarily exclusive for D'Vorah.

EX Ovi being 12 frames would give her a wake up against characters with fast pressure strings but for it to launch the opponent I think it would depend on how much damage she got from it.

Right now I think Venomous' big disadvantage compared to Swarm Queen (bar cancels obviously) is that F22 cannot lead to a full combo which I think is fine just to clarify but if EX Ovi launched for say 30% then that makes her even more threatening in the nuetral. Also EX Ovi would add venom ticks so if you were able to stack in two more which is common for Venomous combos then her damage might go up even more so.

As long as the damage wasn't crazy I think it would be fine for Venomous though, but to compensate I think EX Ovi being -18 on block would be fair. It does have that weird block stun that some moves have which make it awkward to punish. If armour and added damage were added I think being easier to punish is a sensible trade off.

Personally I find Vemomous the most fun variation for D'Vorah, I love harassing people with D3 and D4, throws and F22 to have them suddenly realise they've lost half life to Venom ticks. The drawback of weaker pressure via strings and lower damage and conversion possibilites is a good trade overall.

Can't comment on Brood Mother as I never use it.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

I was gonna come in here all mad and be like "why not a buff Cassie thread while your at it?" But then I saw it was for lesser variations. You may proceed with your discussion.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Keep her ovipositor slow

 

[Mighty Durpyena]

Just give her back her parry from the beta, she needs it

 

[Big Pampering]

The special reversal buffer should stay imo. Otherwise some stuff is just too hard to punish.

 

[SwagMountains]

I'd love every variation to be viable, However, nrs should probably start with making every character viable lol

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

I agree with everything except giving Dvorah a reversal. She does enough rush down, if I knock her down i deserve to keep pressure on her.

 

[Quantus]

I agree with everything except giving Dvorah a reversal. She does enough rush down, if I knock her down i deserve to keep pressure on her.

This wouldn't give SQ a reversal, just Venomous.

 

[haketh]

Now before TYM crucifies me for creating this thread, I am NOT referring to Swarm Queen D'Vorah and that is more or less a point in itself as to why these buffs are necessary. When we talk about a character, we often think about their strongest variation and completely disregard the weaker ones. Is that acceptable? I think all variations of every character should be tournament viable and unfortunately that's not the case for D'Vorah. The same thing could be said for characters such as Gunslinger EB, Hat Trick KL, MOS Raiden etc etc but I'm just going to focus on D'Vorah.

Right now, I think it's safe to say that D'Vorah's lack of a good armor move to wake up, get out of pressure, punish gaps etc. is her biggest weakness. Her EX Ovipositor is her only armor move which has 20 frames of start up, does 10.60% damage on hit and is -12 on block with little to no push back. A good armor move is something that should be available to her in at least one different variation.

Venomous

- Universal change where opponents can no longer mash reversal specials while holding the block button. (This would help a lot against characters like Shinnok for example that can just mash hell spark while blocking bug spray for a guaranteed punish.)
- EX Ovipositor start up is reduced from 20 start up frames to 12
- EX Ovipositor now launches the opponent
- EX Ovipositor on block is now -15 up from -12

Brood Mother

- Bug Blast (projectile) start up is reduced from 28 frames to 20 frames
- Low Krawler cool down reduced from 5 seconds to 3 seconds
- Low Krawler can now be held back and released when the player chooses

Those are all the changes I think are necessary to make D'Vorah's other variations tournament viable. As it stands now, her only useful variation in a tournament setting is Swarm Queen which I currently rank in the 7-9 range. It's good and I wouldn't ask for buffs for that variation nor do I think it requires any nerfs. It's perfect as is.

Yeah these changes are pretty good, I really wish though for the variation system NRS was more like Frenchbread was with Melty Blood when it came to variations. More differnces in movement in between variations and more changes to normals.

 

[SaltShaker]

lol I agree with the metaphor but I would like NRS to address ALL the characters/variations which includes weaker variations of top tier characters.

Yea I don't disagree with that, or that all variations shouldn't have at least a solid purpose, I just hope it is prioritized properly. Hasn't been at all leading to now. If they do something similar to these D'Vorah buffs I hope it is after every character is made truly viable first. So far we've seen buffs to side variations of Sonya, QC, Lao, etc, while the malnourished of the world like Jacqui, Goro, Takeda, etc sit at the dinner table with days old leftovers.

With so few patches left I just really hope they get theirs first and can be made truly viable before seeing "Raiden's MoS variation is now viable with multiple changes, Jacqui's 121 is now +2 (up from +1)" buffs on the upcoming patch notes.

 

[Phosferrax]

Every variation should not be viable. Every variation should have a use (specific mu), but I don't think that every character needs every variation to be viable all the time.

The reason the other 2 are weak in comparison is because SQ is so strong. That's the problem with some characters; they've got a decent genera. design, but there is one variation which handles pretty much everything better than the other 2. Honestly if you want to buff the other two then SQ should almost be nerfed. There is no reason to use the other 2 not because they are bad, but because SQ is so good.

 

[HoneyBee]

I always loved the design of Venomous and over the past week began putting serious time into that variation so I'll throw in my two pennies, curious to hear your thoughts. @HoneyBee

I agree on the reversal thing across the board, I think that is an issue across the board though and not necessarily exclusive for D'Vorah.

EX Ovi being 12 frames would give her a wake up against characters with fast pressure strings but for it to launch the opponent I think it would depend on how much damage she got from it.

Right now I think Venomous' big disadvantage compared to Swarm Queen (bar cancels obviously) is that F22 cannot lead to a full combo which I think is fine just to clarify but if EX Ovi launched for say 30% then that makes her even more threatening in the nuetral. Also EX Ovi would add venom ticks so if you were able to stack in two more which is common for Venomous combos then her damage might go up even more so.

As long as the damage wasn't crazy I think it would be fine for Venomous though, but to compensate I think EX Ovi being -18 on block would be fair. It does have that weird block stun that some moves have which make it awkward to punish. If armour and added damage were added I think being easier to punish is a sensible trade off.

Personally I find Vemomous the most fun variation for D'Vorah, I love harassing people with D3 and D4, throws and F22 to have them suddenly realise they've lost half life to Venom ticks. The drawback of weaker pressure via strings and lower damage and conversion possibilites is a good trade overall.

Can't comment on Brood Mother as I never use it.

If EX Ovi launched in Venomous, I would imagine it as a relatively low launch so you could only connect something like F44 bug spray to get ~ 20-25% damage and a restand but the opponent would be far enough away from you so that only the end of spray actually hits and nothing you do after would be guaranteed unless they're in the corner.

I stated changing the block from -12 to -15 which is plently of frames to have a consistent punish.

I think giving her Venomous variation EX Ovi that launched would allow her to get reasonable damage off of moves like F22, F11 etc at the cost of a bar. She would get around 30% which is nothing unreasonable. The restand would always be far enough away that nothing she does after is guaranteed, the opponent would be able to backdash or armor out.

 

[AZ MotherBrain]

I main Brood and couldn't agree more

 

[Eldriken]

A reasonable buff thread? Hot damn. That's what, two in TYM's existence?

 

[Levaranoia]

Nah, she's already good. Let's worry about the jobbers first.