General/Other - Hat Trick Proposed changes for Hat Trick

[The PantyChrist]

Maybe I'm wrong but I think this variation suffers a bit in the damage and thus the comeback factor. I don't think it's unfair to tone down the damage scaling on hatarang.

 

[Aqueous_Echo]

The current game plan on Hat Trick is, post hat toss from a string:

Back dash to make opponents reversal wiff
Block to block their poke and then leave them infant of the hat
D4 to counter their throw or standing normals
Do a 1 string if they are mind fucked or too slow.

If he had an advantage string, all this would be gone.

Exactly, and everyone would jump on the hat trick train because now it's easy and mindless to play.

"Oh that string is negative... EX hat"

"Whoops, I made a mistake... EX hat"

"Oh I just got away with a big no no... EX hat."

 

[BLOOD CAPTAIN X]

I feel the main issues of hat trick are being missed.

The current problem is that there is very little reason for your opponent to fear the hat trap and this is because of a few factors.

1) your opponent can mash jabs and eliminate the threat of hat trap.

Solution: only have Kung Laos hat return when he is knocked down not just simply hit.

2) there is no combination where Lao is + on block after a hat trap.

Solution: he needs to be + after some strings like 112124 > hat trap to actually make my opponent respect the hat trap.

The main issue: the main issues are that compared to tempest and buzz saw hat trick doesn't provide equivalent reward for the risk taken. Kung Laos hat trap needs more positive reasons for using it as it currently stands there is no reason to respect it.

Solution: give the ex hat call back 1 hit of armour like most EX moves.

I feel implementing these 3 changes would make the variation a viable choice for match ups that buzz saw and tempest aren't suited for.

The last remaining issue is that high hat trap has 0 use as stated by others and the OP. I've tried everything I can think of to make the move work.

What was the moves original purpose when it was created?

Solution: have a standing DD2 perform an above hatarang style attack. This change wouldn't effect the hat call back it would just give Lao a viable anti air that is worth using.

Please take my suggestions seriously I have mained this variation since launch and everything I suggest is from genuine experience, with countless hours spent in the labs working on tech and match up knowledge.

 

[Aqueous_Echo]

Let's just please not say hat trick is unviable. Being + isn't what makes a character good. Mixups aren't either. Are they a nice addition? Yes.

Are we forgetting that hat trap is like having a free (0 frames on use) spin just waiting for a counter? Hat trap, if used sparingly and used smart for pressure, is indeed something to be respected.

Everytime the opponent is caught by a trap it's an easy 25% at the least. Not to mention the chip damage going through the match.

The issue I see in this thread is that a lot of people want plus frames and that shouldn't be the mind set. How many people are going to request plus frames for every character? How boring.

The hat trap creates a parlay of sorts because your opponent has an option and isn't stuck by plus frames. Now if you're smart or reading them you can bait their reaction to hat trap and punish accordingly. THAT is the game of hat trick

 

[Youphemism]

I feel the main issues of hat trick are being missed.

The current problem is that there is very little reason for your opponent to fear the hat trap and this is because of a few factors.

1) your opponent can mash jabs and eliminate the threat of hat trap.

Solution: only have Kung Laos hat return when he is knocked down not just simply hit.

2) there is no combination where Lao is + on block after a hat trap.

Solution: he needs to be + after some strings like 112124 > hat trap to actually make my opponent respect the hat trap.

The main issue: the main issues are that compared to tempest and buzz saw hat trick doesn't provide equivalent reward for the risk taken. Kung Laos hat trap needs more positive reasons for using it as it currently stands there is no reason to respect it.

Solution: give the ex hat call back 1 hit of armour like most EX moves.

I feel implementing these 3 changes would make the variation a viable choice for match ups that buzz saw and tempest aren't suited for.

The last remaining issue is that high hat trap has 0 use as stated by others and the OP. I've tried everything I can think of to make the move work.

What was the moves original purpose when it was created?

Solution: have a standing DD2 perform an above hatarang style attack. This change wouldn't effect the hat call back it would just give Lao a viable anti air that is worth using.

Please take my suggestions seriously I have mained this variation since launch and everything I suggest is from genuine experience, with countless hours spent in the labs working on tech and match up knowledge.

The reason noone fears the Hat Trap, if for some reason they don't, is because it doesn't give that much of a reward if it hits, not because they can "mash jabs" because they can't if you're playing from the right distance and aren't sitting doing nothing the whole time and not because he doesn't have any strings into trap that are plus. He doesn't "need" to be plus on any string into hat trap, it wouldn't even make a difference if he was because the opponent will still have to guess what you're going to do from doing a string, armouring or blocking.

The answer to him getting no reward for calling hat back into a combo is not giving ex callback armour, that make no sense whatsoever. The answer to giving him a better reward off of callback conversions is decreasing the scaling on his combos from callback, whether it be the damage or gravity scaling or both.

Did you just say giving him DD2 as an above hatarang would give him "a viable anti-air that is worth using"?! Are you ACTUALLY insinuating that Kung Lao doesn't have a viable anti-air? Holy mother of Hat Trick...

The length of time you've been playing a character makes no difference, it's how good you are with the character and how well you understand the character. Unfortunately some of your suggestions make no sense which tells me you maybe need to go back to the lab a little longer lol.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Lao doesn't need another Close range anti-air, he has 3: Spin, ex spin, standing 1, and these 3 are actually pretty good.

The plus frames on blockstrings is something i honestly i don't think he needs either, not matter how i see it, the hat trap pressure game is a game where you play on your opponen't head or ahead.

11212 and 112124~mix with hat trap and jump back, d1, and block punishes.

Opponent pokes, you blockstring.
Opponent pokes in the corner, you go for a throw.
Opponent is mashing after a blocked poke, "Oh really?" last time i checked F2 is 11 and is the most legit mid i've seen in the game, anyone mashing pokes after Lao blocking a d1 or D3 will eat a F23 or F21 into HCB.
There is also jump back into Dive kick, which gives a full combo punish against trigger happy opponents.
The close range hat trap is a game of layers.

Those sitting duck fearing hat trap can be harassed by distance using hat trap into hat call back, at a some point they will hit the pressure point and will make a mistake.

Also hat trick is the only Lao that switches roles with his 50-50 mixups, with the hat on his head he gets a overhead starter and with the a low hat trap he gets a low starter
I understand the fact that hat call back is hard to juggle into, sometimes you're not expecting to hit and is kinda hard to convert it as an unexpected hit, I was decided to see if this would keep up as the time passes, but the threat of someone using a reversal after blocking a HCB in some cases is what makes me miss most of my HCB conversions honestly.
yet i would still prefer more technical functionality, since his current issue is not being a threat while hatless at some circustances, he should at least be able to (with away hat out) 112124~hat call back~f2 as a true combo link, which is what i think the ability to link F2 from a placed hat trap would also buff this, which would be much better than having ex hat a damage buff.

So far this is how Hat Trick community is divided, aside of what everyone agrees on:

Group 1: More technical functionality by linking strings (i.e F2) after hat trap or away hat call back, leave hat-a-rang alone

Group 2: Buff Hat-a-rang and hat call back damage and juggle restrition, leave the rest alone

Group 3: Give him a few strings that are plus on block after a hat trap, so he can become a threat when hatless, leave the rest alone.

Group 4: Hat Trick already strong, just fix the hitbox issues, leave everything else alone.

 

[Big Pampering]

Hmm, I don't see how (11212) hat callback b321spin jk dk 21 for 29%-31% no meter is considered low damage. It is good enough.

Again I only think he needs these changes that would make his gameplan more consistent and fun to play.

- B22 hat trap(safe on block against cassie) easier to convert into b321 consistently
- Mid hat trap being a true mid
- 112124 not whiffing
- The hat returning to kung laos head if he blocks anything from behind and also when kung lao blocks 2/3 hits, otherwise he can get stuck in some crazy pressure without armor to get out.

These are more consistency fixes and stuff that can help him deal with specific situations that are a just stupid to deal with.

The 112124 hat trap being plus would be nice and this change would make him jump over a lot of characters in the tier list imo, but not needed.

 

[BLOOD CAPTAIN X]

The reason noone fears the Hat Trap, if for some reason they don't, is because it doesn't give that much of a reward if it hits, not because they can "mash jabs" because they can't if you're playing from the right distance and aren't sitting doing nothing the whole time and not because he doesn't have any strings into trap that are plus. He doesn't "need" to be plus on any string into hat trap, it wouldn't even make a difference if he was because the opponent will still have to guess what you're going to do from doing a string, armouring or blocking.

The answer to him getting no reward for calling hat back into a combo is not giving ex callback armour, that make no sense whatsoever. The answer to giving him a better reward off of callback conversions is decreasing the scaling on his combos from callback, whether it be the damage or gravity scaling or both.

Did you just say giving him DD2 as an above hatarang would give him "a viable anti-air that is worth using"?! Are you ACTUALLY insinuating that Kung Lao doesn't have a viable anti-air? Holy mother of Hat Trick...

The length of time you've been playing a character makes no difference, it's how good you are with the character and how well you understand the character. Unfortunately some of your suggestions make no sense which tells me you maybe need to go back to the lab a little longer lol.

Your taking the points I made separately and by doing so missing the underlying message

High hat trap currently has 0 use, my suggestion was to simply give it a use.

You saying that your opponent can't mash jabs to negate your hat trap. 1 they can dependant on how close you are to them. 2 your missing the underlying point I am making saying your hat shouldn't return just from being poked, it should return on knockdown.

The point of ex hat trap having armour is because you can be hit out of the call back when the hat is on its way back. Several hat trick players experience this and it makes it a waste of ex move. You can argue that you should choose when to use it but again the underlying point is that being able to be hit out of a hat call back so easily is a problem.

Having plus frames on strings out of hatrap is debatable and not necessarily needed.

Before you pick on small points in a post try to understand the underlying points if you can't see them message me and ask me instead of trying to insult my ideas and skill with the character.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

When did I say that? I didn't mention anything about increasing the hitstun nor giving 40% so stop putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that if you connect an EX Hat-a-rang you should not be rewarded with less than what you could've done without using the meter. As I said, why use the bar if it doesn't actually enhance the move?

Hey hey don't get me wrong I'm not trying to say you said anything you didn't, I literally am reading this as what you are saying... 40% was more of a guess of what you are shooting for and is what we'd get if it had same scaling or slightly less as our other specials like Spin... and I didn't even imply that you said anything about Hit Stun, it ALREADY converts from full screen man.

Of course it's a combo tool, why else would it come back and let you combo off of it?

To reward you for connecting an Ex-Projectile when you ARENT comboing. This is a tool that gives you 30% for 1 bar from full screen on hit. On block, it allows you to close an entire full screen distance gap by pressing 1 button. This is way better than Tempest's EX-projectile and many MANY characters ex-projectile. Let's not act like it has no use as it stands, it has a great use, I find it useful every single game. That's why I think buffing it is not only unnecessary as it has a role, it is also taking focus away from our tools that DO need improving. Hatarang is not only fine, it's very VERY good.

Yes you do have spin but it doesn't connect off of every string on the ground unless you ex it

Only one string I can think of can't be hit confirmed into combo with Spin or Hat Trap, and that is B321. And you aren't asking for this to be changed right, just an improvement to the reward if you a willing to spend meter to combo off it right? But you can still get like 33% into HKD off Ex-Spin, the meter gives you 21%. This does not feel like a critical flaw of Hat Tricks game, yeah it makes the B321 string much less useful in the neutral, but it is still B321 just as good (the best!) in combo's so it's not like it's a useless string or anything. And you already can't combo off Low Hat in the corner with B321 so it's just something that doesn't have a big part of Hat Tricks neutral game, this is ok, we have F23 and B22. Doesn't strike me as a massive hole that's holding Hat Trick back.

Also "so good already" is a bit of an overstatement. Having a full combo punishable gap when blocked is not "so good" nor is being given a heavily scaled combo when it lands lol.

Why? You shouldn't be using it at point blank range. Many characters have ex-projectiles that are punishable on block. It's not a blockstring. Having a heavily scaled combo when it lands is just fine. I already converts for like 10% more than Sub-Zero's ex-Iceball does for example.

The only fixing that it needs, is that the MB call back is armoured, and the hit box needs to be lowered meaning it won't wiff on some opponents in the corner, making it a true mid.

Also, the more I think about it, I don't think he needs a string that allows the hat toss into advantage, then it would be no different than tempest, for example 112124 Hat Toss - 112124 MB Call back - 112124 Hat toss and so on and so on.

It would likely be even better because you've just gotten 2 strings in for 1 bar, doing much more damage than Tempest does per bar, and actually BUILDING way more meter than you spent, just under netting yourself a free bar. There is a big armorable gap, but this would still be ridiculous IMO.

There's a reason hat trick is the most underused of KL's variations. Tempest is just easy tbh. There's not even many buzzsaws around anymore. There has only ever been very few hat trick mains and that number hasn't really changed since launch.

Anyway, I just want to say that even though variations are different with every ONE character, that doesn't mean you play that character with the same mindset of another variation.

Doing a string into a safe hat trap you have 3 or even 4 options (block a poke/punish, do your own poke into pressure, continue your pressure, or call the hat right back to punish a baited punish).

Tempest is more of an offensive variation and so is buzzsaw. Hat trick has its moments of offense with pressure yes, but to give + on hat trap is ridiculous to me. Just keep this variation and it's frames the same and adjust gravity a bit to help with his damage. At least to give about 5% more. That's it.

I like how hat trick plays because it makes you think, it makes you adapt, and it makes you understand footsies/pokes a lot more (if you aren't familiar). The variation thrives on pokes, footsies, and a mix of offense/defense

Sounds like you understand this variation very well IMO! That mirrors a lot of my own thoughts on it. It's not as easy, as well as being a different style of play to the other two variations, as such it will always be the least popular variation, variations that aren't just straight up "rushdown" or "zoning" and are more utility and have less linear gameplay, will always be the least popular unless the other variations are seriously trash. In this case, the reverse is true, Tempest is ridiculously strong, but even if he was normalized, I still think the playstyle will be much more popular than Hat Trick. I however, do not enjoy that playstyle, and much more enjoy Hat Trick's feel.

The current game plan on Hat Trick is, post hat toss from a string:

Back dash to make opponents reversal wiff
Block to block their poke and then leave them infant of the hat
D4 to counter their throw or standing normals
Do a 1 string if they are mind fucked or too slow.

If he had an advantage string, all this would be gone.

Exactly. This works as is and is good game design, no need to fuck with it! Also, jump back is an option and threatens DK or Air HCB, or just bluffs them into blocking.

Did you just say giving him DD2 as an above hatarang would give him "a viable anti-air that is worth using"?! Are you ACTUALLY insinuating that Kung Lao doesn't have a viable anti-air? Holy mother of Hat Trick...

When he takes the Hat Off he loses his best AA, Spin, NjP and Ji2 are all gone, while his uppercut becomes trash, so what he is saying is he'd like to be able to actually use one of his tools, to set-up a trap that can be used as AA but doesn't actually have ZERO threat value elsewhere, at the cost of the Mid hitbox and ground recall arc. Doesn't sound too outlandish for me, especially considering he's talking about fixing an absolutely useless tool as is, no need to go at him like that, especially since you are trying to get HATARANG buffed for christ sake and nobody is going at you, just casually explaining our perspectives.

Your taking the points I made separately and by doing so missing the underlying message

High hat trap currently has 0 use, my suggestion was to simply give it a use.

You saying that your opponent can't mash jabs to negate your hat trap. 1 they can dependant on how close you are to them. 2 your missing the underlying point I am making saying your hat shouldn't return just from being poked, it should return on knockdown.

The point of ex hat trap having armour is because you can be hit out of the call back when the hat is on its way back. Several hat trick players experience this and it makes it a waste of ex move. You can argue that you should choose when to use it but again the underlying point is that being able to be hit out of a hat call back so easily is a problem.

Having plus frames on strings out of hatrap is debatable and not necessarily needed.

Before you pick on small points in a post try to understand the underlying points if you can't see them message me and ask me instead of trying to insult my ideas and skill with the character.

The one thing I disagree with is the Hat Trap having plus frames, scroll up to read why. The rest is VERY accurate IMO.

 

[Aqueous_Echo]

Sounds like you understand this variation very well IMO! That mirrors a lot of my own thoughts on it. It's not as easy, as well as being a different style of play to the other two variations, as such it will always be the least popular variation, variations that aren't just straight up "rushdown" or "zoning" and are more utility and have less linear gameplay, will always be the least popular unless the other variations are seriously trash. In this case, the reverse is true, Tempest is ridiculously strong, but even if he was normalized, I still think the playstyle will be much more popular than Hat Trick. I however, do not enjoy that playstyle, and much more enjoy Hat Trick's feel.
--
Indeed friend, I haven't even been playing hat trick as a strong main for 2 weeks. He is the ONLY variation I played for KL but not even close to high level until one of my friends wanted to spar with his dualist Liu Kang. It was in those matches that hat trick finally made sense and I fucking loved it.

I've been a mileena/Kenshi main since launch but hat trick is now in my top 3. Just depends on MU (which I'm still playing with other high level players who play different characters so I can see what's good and bad in a MU)

Anyway, I just don't want hat trick to become braindead. I really dont. It has a few tweaks it needs but overall it's already incredible. Would I pick hat trick in a tournament? No because I still learn everyday with it. Do I think it's tournament viable? Absolutely.

Like I said, I just don't want it to become braindead easy. The MK FGC reminds me a lot of the band TOOL and their fanbase. I absolutely love TOOL but mostly can't stand their fans.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

yet i would still prefer more technical functionality, since his current issue is not being a threat while hatless at some circustances, he should at least be able to (with away hat out) 112124~hat call back~f2 as a true combo link, which is what i think the ability to link F2 from a placed hat trap would also buff this, which would be much better than having ex hat a damage buff.

That same link would also make 112124 completely safe unless they can armour through the gap, giving you insane pressure. I think it's overkill.

So far this is how Hat Trick community is divided, aside of what everyone agrees on:

Group 1: More technical functionality by linking strings (i.e F2) after hat trap or away hat call back, leave hat-a-rang alone

Group 2: Buff Hat-a-rang and hat call back damage and juggle restrition, leave the rest alone

Group 3: Give him a few strings that are plus on block after a hat trap, so he can become a threat when hatless, leave the rest alone.

Group 4: Hat Trick already strong, just fix the hitbox issues, leave everything else alone.

I don't agree with any of them. Hat Trick as a variation could still use a couple of improvements obviously, but Hatarang is absolutely fine, so rule out 2 and 4 for me. Then 1 and 3 are extremely similar, and also aspects that I don't think need to be changed.


There is definitely another category, which includes me and @BLOOD CAPTAIN X at the very least and I know Youph agreed about it too (even tho he has some other suggestions as well) as well as other people I've seen agree, we all think a major issue is the reward for Hat Trap. As it stands, just for an example, you can successfully pull off a TP-3 into 44, WITH a trap set up behind the combo-carry to extend the combo, and still only net 1% unless the Trap was really far, and possibly even lose up to 3% if it happened to be close. It also is NEVER a smooth convert off a successful convert as an opener, really hard to do because in practice, you basically have to block all the way and hitconfirm the HCB and then try to convert. I'm cool with the damage it nets for an opener, just improving the gravity would fix both these things, converting would obviously become much less painful, and combo's that were extended with HCB could be followed up with B321xxSpin instead of just 4xxSpin, which will net you a bit more damage (2-3%), and give you extra wallcarry, which seems much fairer and makes the HCB combo set ups actually worthwhile. This is the only change I personally think he NEEDS, I'm cool with Hat going away on hit and all that other shit if they fix this tbqh.

 

[Eddy Wang]

That same link would also make 112124 completely safe unless they can armour through the gap, giving you insane pressure. I think it's overkill.

As far as i know there is block and hit advantage, and one can be changed without affecting both of them, it doesn't need to be a plus omg on hit type of a link, a 2 frame link is what it would make it fine. Scorpion was a special case, because instead they messed up with the cancel advantage of the string which messed up the entire scorpion as a character in any variation.

In Lao's case, reducing HCB recovery for a few frames to make a 2 frame link would make him broken? Would it make HCB safe?
With this, he would have more ways to use away hat trap, not only reasons to set it up more, but punishing teleporters as well as more combo potential.

With this i believe, the needing of hat call back having armor becomes excluded, as well as hat going back to his head if he blocks a crossup while hatless (really? That one didn't make much sense at first big ), the needing of hat trap pressure to be plus, would also be excluded, as well as the Hat-a-rang buff.

I only identify myself in the group 1, besides the general fixing, i'm actually fine with the hat returning after the first hit too, and i think its better this way.

 

[BLOOD CAPTAIN X]

We all may have slightly differing opinions but unanimously we agree something needs to change and of the brilliant suggestions I have read I would be happy with 90% of what I've read.

Unanimously we can agree there needs to be more reward for having hat trap out. Or using hat a rang

Weather this be in the form of:

-reduced damage scaling. (Hat a rang and callback)
-easier juggle opportunity. (Hat a rang and call back)
-better frame advantage. (Hat a rang and call back)
-armour on ex version. (Call back)
-not returned to Laos head by being hit once. (Call back)

Any of these suggestions would help naturally I prefer some more than others but one of these needs to happen.

High hat trap needs to be adjusted either:

-Give the move a forward/backward placement.
-Change the move entirely.

Otherwise we as a community are fine with the variation and honestly all it takes is to implement one of the changes.

 

[Youphemism]

- The hat returning to kung laos head if he blocks anything from behind and also when kung lao blocks 2/3 hits, otherwise he can get stuck in some crazy pressure without armor to get out.

What do you mean "blocks anything form behind"? That would completely nullify Hat Trap pressure anyway since none of his strings are plus enough to stop the opponent from poking after a Hat Trap on block. String into Hat Trap just to then have the hat come back because you've blocked the poke your opponent can safely throw out? Wouldn't make sense.

Your taking the points I made separately and by doing so missing the underlying message

High hat trap currently has 0 use, my suggestion was to simply give it a use.

You saying that your opponent can't mash jabs to negate your hat trap. 1 they can dependant on how close you are to them. 2 your missing the underlying point I am making saying your hat shouldn't return just from being poked, it should return on knockdown.

The point of ex hat trap having armour is because you can be hit out of the call back when the hat is on its way back. Several hat trick players experience this and it makes it a waste of ex move. You can argue that you should choose when to use it but again the underlying point is that being able to be hit out of a hat call back so easily is a problem.

Having plus frames on strings out of hatrap is debatable and not necessarily needed.

Before you pick on small points in a post try to understand the underlying points if you can't see them message me and ask me instead of trying to insult my ideas and skill with the character.

I'm reading what you're saying and replying to them...if you want to make a point make a point, don't have all this "underlying message" stuff to wade through to get what you're saying :S

Stop making underlying points then and just make the points you want to make lol. They can only negate your hat trap if you don't block whatever they're hitting you with or if you're doing a string into hat trap that's punishable. And you want to wait even longer before he gets his hat back? You want to extend the amount of time he has no access to armour or overheads? That would make him even less of a threat without hat.

Ex callback is for blockstrings, which is why it's so plus on block in the first place. It's a whiff punishing tool, you use it to punish the opponent for making a mistake. If you're right next to them then you use your normals, not callback. It's not a waste of an ex move you're just not using it properly. And don't just say several hat tricks experience it when you're the only one bringing it up.

I'm not trying to insult you I'm just saying if you're going to present an argument stop hiding it behind other points because it's just confusing and unnecessary.

 

[Youphemism]

First and foremost I want to apologise if I've come across a little hostile, I don't mean to I might do it in this post too but don't take it to heart lol.

Hey hey don't get me wrong I'm not trying to say you said anything you didn't, I literally am reading this as what you are saying... 40% was more of a guess of what you are shooting for and is what we'd get if it had same scaling or slightly less as our other specials like Spin... and I didn't even imply that you said anything about Hit Stun, it ALREADY converts from full screen man.

Nah I'm just suggesting it do about 36%ish instead of 31%. I think that's reasonable damage for spending a bar.

To reward you for connecting an Ex-Projectile when you ARENT comboing. This is a tool that gives you 30% for 1 bar from full screen on hit. On block, it allows you to close an entire full screen distance gap by pressing 1 button. This is way better than Tempest's EX-projectile and many MANY characters ex-projectile. Let's not act like it has no use as it stands, it has a great use, I find it useful every single game. That's why I think buffing it is not only unnecessary as it has a role, it is also taking focus away from our tools that DO need improving. Hatarang is not only fine, it's very VERY good.

Well yeah of course it's better than other projectiles, because you can combo off of it from full screen. It has a use but the reward you get from using it doesn't represent the resources you're using to get that reward. I'm only asking for a tad more damage on it which I don't think is too much for spending a bar on it. Nothing about it changes except you get a bit more damage. It's a good ex projectile and it has better uses than most of the others but that doesn't mean it shouldn't give you the proper reward for your correct read. It's the same with callback.

Only one string I can think of can't be hit confirmed into combo with Spin or Hat Trap, and that is B321. And you aren't asking for this to be changed right, just an improvement to the reward if you a willing to spend meter to combo off it right? But you can still get like 33% into HKD off Ex-Spin, the meter gives you 21%. This does not feel like a critical flaw of Hat Tricks game, yeah it makes the B321 string much less useful in the neutral, but it is still B321 just as good (the best!) in combo's so it's not like it's a useless string or anything. And you already can't combo off Low Hat in the corner with B321 so it's just something that doesn't have a big part of Hat Tricks neutral game, this is ok, we have F23 and B22. Doesn't strike me as a massive hole that's holding Hat Trick back.

That's....not what I was talking about at all lol. You said spin is a combo tool but I was just saying that spin won't connect from B321 starting from the ground.

Why? You shouldn't be using it at point blank range. Many characters have ex-projectiles that are punishable on block. It's not a blockstring. Having a heavily scaled combo when it lands is just fine. I already converts for like 10% more than Sub-Zero's ex-Iceball does for example.

Well that's not necessarily true, you could use it at point blank for several reasons like if you wanted to do extra chip damage or you've conditioned the opponent to just expect a blockstring by itself and you're using hat-a-rang to catch them trying to do a move after the blockstring. Actually you'll find some ex projectiles have actually been made safer, see Sonya for example. Kitanas ex fans had the gap removed and I don't see the problem in removing the gap in Hat-a-rang, never mind the fact the gap is full combo punishable without armour. Sub Zero doesn't have extraordinarily high damage output anyway so if that got buffed too I would be ok with that. He should be rewarded correctly for spending the bar.

When he takes the Hat Off he loses his best AA, Spin, NjP and Ji2 are all gone, while his uppercut becomes trash, so what he is saying is he'd like to be able to actually use one of his tools, to set-up a trap that can be used as AA but doesn't actually have ZERO threat value elsewhere, at the cost of the Mid hitbox and ground recall arc. Doesn't sound too outlandish for me, especially considering he's talking about fixing an absolutely useless tool as is, no need to go at him like that, especially since you are trying to get HATARANG buffed for christ sake and nobody is going at you, just casually explaining our perspectives.

I was just pointing out that Kung Lao obviously does have a viable anti-air without hat in standing 1. What's wrong with asking for a move that scales pretty heavily to not scale so heavily? That's really not half as bad as insinuating he doesn't have a viable anti-air when hat's out so that's not a fair comparison.

 

[Big Pampering]

I meant if kung lao blocks an attack with his back the hat should return so he can properly punish moves like teleports.

 

[The PantyChrist]

Wouldn't hat returning after a 2nd hit affect the other Laos as well?

 

[Eddy Wang]

Wouldn't hat returning after a 2nd hit affect the other Laos as well?

The move has resiliency proprieties, if you throw a Hat-a-rang and get hit only once by something, the hat will still return to hit you, it will only disappear if you hit lao twice.

Currently wondering why hat call back is not the same honestly.

 

[The PantyChrist]

The move has resiliency proprieties, if you throw a Hat-a-rang and get hit only once by something, the hat will still return to hit you, it will only disappear if you hit lao twice.

Currently wondering why hat call back is not the same honestly.

i was talking about the trap

 

[Eddy Wang]

i was talking about the trap

I meant, if Hat Trick has this propriety iself without affecting Buzzsaw and Tempest, there is very likely it can be done.

 

[The PantyChrist]

If universal properties of characters can be adjusted within a variation why not just let Lao spin without a hat?

I just don't think it can be done

 

[just_2swift]

He should get his b1 from mk9 as his b2 when he uses hat trap

tele should track better. Also when delayed ex Tele should track and have armor when he comes out of the ground.

 

[ETC Mcfly]

A lot of people plays Tempest and Buzzsaw, and very few play Hat Trick, while the buffs he got made him more bearable, after been playing nothing than hat trick for weeks and grinding as much of MUs i could, i came to notice there are still work to be done in this variation, there was actually a bigger list, but he doesn't need all, the idea is to make the character viable, and fun, not broken, so only 3 changes are needed, the first and the last one are fixes.



1. Hat callback Hitting mid was god send, but there are matches where hat callback should've hit mid, and doesn't matter if some characters are blocking or neutral crouching (sonya, jacqui, etc) the hat goes right over their heads and lao spends meter for nothing when you want that plus, it totally ruins his pressure game in first place, so this needs a fix.
Suggestion: Hat Callback Hitbox should've been slightly increased only in the lower area, it would solve this issue.

2. Above Hat trap, has currently no use since the hat stays right above Lao's head, there are no matchups where above hat has found its use, If that hat was supposed to anti-air characters, that ain't working, first because after setting that up, lao needs to back away to create the perfect tragectory, something he doesn't need to do with forward hat, since the hat will follow him around, there is nothing to bluff with above hat trap either, since he loses a lot, and there is nothing to gain, the above trap is currently one of the top useless moves in the game
Suggestion: Above Hat Trap should have an aditional command upon its execution, that would allow the hat to be placed above but forward (DD2F), and another command to place the hat above but away (DD2B), I still think this is optional, the move is already useless itself there is no actual reason to use it, part of me doesn't care if this move gets buffed or not, considering forward trap anti-airs better than above hat trap.


3. The thing that bugs most of hat tricks, is most of the times you need your hat to stay out on certain traps, only to get destroyed by a poke, setups that took dedicated times to recreate the situation on a real match, only to get hit by a D1 or D3 that will put the hat back in the head.
Suggestion: Hat Trap doesn't go away, unless the opponent hits lao twice while he is standing, Opponent's hit counter is 2hit combo and beyond, a knockdown, or juggle state.

This would make Hat Trick a better trapper, but it would also increase his risk, since getting hit by something for positioning doesn't immediately puts the hat back on his head.

Hat trick Damage situation:

4.Some say his Hat-A-Rang (ex BF2) scales way too much damage, that is true, a 31% combo with 1 bar, while he has a 38% meterless doesn't make sense, yet, the returning hat its not safe, has a gap while the hat is returning, and lao can be punished due its recovery up close.

I for once considering he has hat trap to cancel to, which makes some of his strings safe, i don't think this move needs to be safe or buffed, because it was not meant to be used at blast radius nor as a blockstring, having this move has a blockstring would remove the originality of the variation, as well as hitting mid on return.

Also, Lao is a character that should have deal kabal's damage (No bigger than 35%) outside of tempest considering the options he has across all variations, but that's me.

Giving the option of the opponent's to low profile the hat, it forces them to crouch which while you're running towards makes the hat recover much faster, that they can be hit with b22, or F4 if you don't want to wait, which is an option that would go away that opens up the opponent's far more than making them a sitting duck blocking.

Anyway, it appears not all hatricks have the same opinion about it, so i will give 3 suggestions, in order of one to be picked, let me tell you, we don't need 3. Also i would like to know how non Lao players feel about this.

• Suggestion1: Hat-a-rang now hits mid on his way back, and is also safe on block at blast radius even with the gap ( But no damage buff,)
• Suggestion2: Hat-a-rang is the same at blast radius, but has less scaling on hit, which means damage buff for the risk taken.
• Suggestion3: instead of Buffing hat-a-rang which is totally unnecessary IMO, make 112124~hat trap on hit, able to link F2 for a continued combo, But adds correct scalling on his combos, reducing his 38% meterless a few values below. Trading easy damage for more technical functionality.

I would go with suggestion 3 without blinking.


5. J2 has a phantom hitbox that can hit character from a very distant jump without the hat touching the opponent, and can even hit crouching characters the same way, currently i've been taking advantage of this to punish my opponent's every time in situations i know it would be a safe block for them, not only that, is currently the easiest way to approach in the game, once lao settles the opponen't to respect a certain range.
Suggestion: Fix J2 hitbox to match the hat, i know there is a good number of phantom hitboxes in the game, but that IMO needs to go.

Spoiler: Things i scratched off the list, that i gathered around, don't think Lao needs it with the current suggestions:

• Able to attack airbone after an air hat callback
• Able to hat callback after a teleport
• Second hit of B12 to be overhead
• Faster recovery on away hat trap
• 112124~hat trap to be + on block
• Hat-a-rang to be + on block
• Easier to juggle off Hat callback
• Easier to juggle off low hat callback
• Walkspeed buff

@I GOT HANDS
@Youphemism
@Just2Swift
@The PantyChrist
@FOREVER KING
@A F0xy Grampa
@Big Pampering
@BLOOD CAPTAIN X
@Bird Lao X
@ETC Mcfly
@Every Hat Trick Main

Just one, request, this is a open discussion, be respectable towards everyone, make some sense and be reasonable, no raging calling names, i will respectfully ask @Hollywood DMS @1man3letters and @Tim Static to keep an eye on this to prevent salts.
Also the "Play Tempest" or "Play Buzzsaw" and "Lao already has 2 good variations" quotes have no power here, if you have similar stuff to say please stay out of this thread, since you won't be adding nothing constructive about it.

The Hat Trick mode use it any time to entertain and That I have to fight soon I'll upload to youtube, but I think you need to have a Armor When This no cap. (NRS Could give bar armor to use in esta mode). This variation is entertaining and good but could be better.