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Match-Up Discussion - Relentless [Pre-XL] Jason Voorhees (Relentess) Match Up Chart

Big D

Relevant In An Irrelevant Time
I agree with almost everything.
Few things I dont:
4-6 instead of 3-7 against GM Sub
It MIGHT be 5-5 against MoS Ermac.
I think its 3-7 against Shaolin Kung Jin

@YOMI REO
 
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@YOMI REO

Agree with most of what's here (which is a little depressing). I can't really think of a matchup we win. The matchups I personally struggle in are ones where we get mauled in neutral, (Cage etc) What keeps Boneshaper a 3-7 after the patch though? The neutral doesn't feel to abysmal, but I'm guessing it's the fact b122 is a massive risk since Shinnok gets a full combo punish off of it, plus the combination of hellsparks/spark mixups, keep-away etc makes it pretty difficult.

Also just a few extra variations I've had a chance to play against/ break down.

(Liu Kang)Dragons Fire 3-7 (Takeda) Shira Ryu 4-6
(Raiden) Thunder God 4-6
(Scorpion) Ninjutsu 4-6

Don't have a ton of experience against a few of the characters you listed, but from what I've had the chance to play it seems bang on.
 
I agree with almost everything.
Few things I dont:
4-6 instead of 3-7 against GM Sub
It MIGHT be 5-5 against MoS Ermac.
I think its 3-7 against Shaolin Kung Jin

@YOMI REO
I'm actually really curious how you approach the Sub matchup. have quite an issue with clone in this mu. Gets free meterbuild or or a mixup since we don't really have a normal to poke it with like other characters, and on an ex tele they can just walk forward and it makes Jason walk right into the clone. Just feels I'm always playing very defensively/reactive which doesn't seem to cut it.
 

Big D

Relevant In An Irrelevant Time
I'm actually really curious how you approach the Sub matchup. have quite an issue with clone in this mu. Gets free meterbuild or or a mixup since we don't really have a normal to poke it with like other characters, and on an ex tele they can just walk forward and it makes Jason walk right into the clone. Just feels I'm always playing very defensively/reactive which doesn't seem to cut it.
That came mainly from "theory-fighting." I haven't played a good GM sub with Jason yet, so technically my opinion on that MU doesnt count yet.
 

Scott The Scot

Where there is smoke, there is cancer.
@YOMI REO What keeps Boneshaper a 3-7 after the patch though? The neutral doesn't feel to abysmal, but I'm guessing it's the fact b122 is a massive risk since Shinnok gets a full combo punish off of it, plus the combination of hellsparks/spark mixups, keep-away etc makes it pretty difficult.
Wouldn't use just use B12 instead? Then if it hits press 2 for the combo.
 
Wouldn't use just use B12 instead? Then if it hits press 2 for the combo.
Hit confirming 2 is insane lol. The mixup comes after b1. It's the equivalent of saying hit confirm Kotals b1.

Let me rephrase that. (multitasking at work)

Basically the mixup is after b1, and confirming b12 isn't bad. I don't see people being able to react to only the 2 in the string hitting and confirming that. So lets say you read the b1 mixup, b1 is blocked and 2 hits, you're not hit confirming the 2 by itself.
 
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Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Hit confirming 2 is insane lol. The mixup comes after b1. It's the equivalent of saying hit confirm Kotals b1.

Let me rephrase that. (multitasking at work)

Basically the mixup is after b1, and confirming b12 isn't bad. I don't see people being able to react to only the 2 in the string hitting and confirming that. So lets say you read the b1 mixup, b1 is blocked and 2 hits, you're not hit confirming the 2 by itself.
Except you can hit confirm Kotal's B1. There is a really huge window where you can cancel into a special.
 

Scott The Scot

Where there is smoke, there is cancer.
Hit confirming 2 is insane lol. The mixup comes after b1. It's the equivalent of saying hit confirm Kotals b1.

Let me rephrase that. (multitasking at work)

Basically the mixup is after b1, and confirming b12 isn't bad. I don't see people being able to react to only the 2 in the string hitting and confirming that. So lets say you read the b1 mixup, b1 is blocked and 2 hits, you're not hit confirming the 2 by itself.
Wait what? Lol I'm trying to say you should never do B122 on block and you should confirm AFTER the 2, as in after B12 lol. Apologies, I worded it weirdly I think haha. B122 shouldn't be an issue if you always hitconfirm B12, and you should always be hitconfirming that is what I'm saying :p
 
Wait what? Lol I'm trying to say you should never do B122 on block and you should confirm AFTER the 2, as in after B12 lol. Apologies, I worded it weirdly I think haha. B122 shouldn't be an issue if you always hitconfirm B12, and you should always be hitconfirming that is what I'm saying :p
Thing is you can't always confirm after the two. Lets say I'm using b1 against you. The mixup is b1 tick throw (or special) b12/b122. So you block b1 and now your guess is am I cancelling the normal or continuing a string? So b1 is now blocked, which means your confirming off of 2, which haven't found to be possible consistently. (Yes, I've sat in training with random block. Don't judge me)

Not to mention b122 in itself can be put in, as your -1 after b12. B1 is 13 frames of startup. Most pokes in the game are going to counter your pressure next. So they're waiting to poke and you can punish them/make them respect your option to finish the string. It's not really black and white with the b122 guessing game.
 
I wanna know who people deal with Cassie, that match-up feels horrible
Disclaimer: my opinion on the matchup

It comes down to having a stronger neutral game than your opponent. You both have amazing advancing strings (although hers is plus for some ungodly reason). The matchup ends up pretty basic, once she has you in the blender are you guessing right? Her d4 does pretty well at low profiling, but in general her strings/normals have a quite a bit of whiff recovery and we have an amazing tool for punishing them. Once you get your opening you can let the pursuit shenanigans begin.

Cassie for me is the definition of a 4-6, mostly based on the fact both have great tools for the matchup, but Cassie over all has more tools that an convert into a lot more damage, guaranteed resets, and has cartwheel as a punisher.
 

Scott The Scot

Where there is smoke, there is cancer.
Thing is you can't always confirm after the two. Lets say I'm using b1 against you. The mixup is b1 tick throw (or special) b12/b122. So you block b1 and now your guess is am I cancelling the normal or continuing a string? So b1 is now blocked, which means your confirming off of 2, which haven't found to be possible consistently. (Yes, I've sat in training with random block. Don't judge me)

Not to mention b122 in itself can be put in, as your -1 after b12. B1 is 13 frames of startup. Most pokes in the game are going to counter your pressure next. So they're waiting to poke and you can punish them/make them respect your option to finish the string. It's not really black and white with the b122 guessing game.
I don't think you understand what I'm trying to talk about. I'm not even talking about the B1 guessing game. I'm talking about you knowing you're going to use B122, but to be safe you input B12 and then if it hits press 2 so that B122 comes out, if it is blocked you don't press two. That's easy to do lol.

You both have amazing advancing strings (although hers is plus for some ungodly reason)
Hers has a massive gap in it man, she can't just use it all the time. She has to condition the opponent so they let her do the string :p
 
I don't think you understand what I'm trying to talk about. I'm not even talking about the B1 guessing game. I'm talking about you knowing you're going to use B122, but to be safe you input B12 and then if it hits press 2 so that B122 comes out, if it is blocked you don't press two. That's easy to do lol.


Hers has a massive gap in it man, she can't just use it all the time. She has to condition the opponent so they let her do the string :p
Ok I'll try and say this much simpler. You KNOW you're doing b122, and they block the b1. Hit confirming ONLY the 2 is hard to do. Hit confirming b12 isn't.

I never said she can just use it all the time, it says you both have amazing footsie tools, disagree?
 

Scott The Scot

Where there is smoke, there is cancer.
Ok I'll try and say this much simpler. You KNOW you're doing b122, and they block the b1. Hit confirming ONLY the 2 is hard to do. Hit confirming b12 isn't.

I never said she can just use it all the time, it says you both have amazing footsie tools, disagree?
Why were you telling me that? That wasn't anything what I was taking about. I was ONLY talking about the b12 hit confirm.

I never said that you said that, but since you were doing it to me in the other part of our conversation, so I figured I might as well do it to. Just because I can.
 

Scott The Scot

Where there is smoke, there is cancer.
@BiPolarExxpress You know what. I'm sorry for being a dick there, that's not called for. This is getting out of hand. We both agree hit confirming B1 itself is mental, but B12 is easy. We're both on the same page, we always have been lol.

Apologies if you hate me now, that is the side effect for having a discussion with me. Ask anyone who has lol :p
 
@Scott The Scot Tried to give a bit to much information on the scenarios so it makes sense to people reading, there's honestly way to many posts on this site with not enough info haha. Went a little overboard.

Meh, all good. Wasn't trying to be an ass just wasn't sure how to get the point across.

But we're still not on the same page lol, I'm talking about confirming the 2 after the back 1. So b1 (blocked) 2 (confirm) 2 If b1 hits that's an entirely different story.
 

Scott The Scot

Where there is smoke, there is cancer.
@Scott The Scot Tried to give a bit to much information on the scenarios so it makes sense to people reading, there's honestly way to many posts on this site with not enough info haha. Went a little overboard.

Meh, all good. Wasn't trying to be an ass just wasn't sure how to get the point across.

But we're still not on the same page lol, I'm talking about confirming the 2 after the back 1. So b1 (blocked) 2 (confirm) 2 If b1 hits that's an entirely different story.[/QUOTE
Sweet man!

Just pretend we're on the same page, it's a lot easier that way lol. Just to be clear... You are hitconfirming B12? That's what I'm talking about lol.
 
Yep talking about hit confirming b12. Hit confirming b12 (if b1 hits) isn't bad at all, it's hit confirming the 2 (if b1 is blocked) that is pretty damn difficult
 

Scott The Scot

Where there is smoke, there is cancer.
Yep talking about hit confirming b12. Hit confirming b12 (if b1 hits) isn't bad at all, it's hit confirming the 2 (if b1 is blocked) that is pretty damn difficult
Ah I see what you're saying now. B1 is blocked but the B1*2* hits. Right okay lol, I see what you mean. On the plus side, you're +24 if it hits so you can command grab, more pressure, y'know... Do what Jason does lol