What's new

POLL: Should Custom Variations be allowed in competitive play? (local tournaments, online ranked)

Should Custom Variations be allowed in competitive play?

  • Yes

    Votes: 164 81.6%
  • No

    Votes: 37 18.4%

  • Total voters
    201

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
I don't know if the competitive players needing to learn stuff is really much of a thing. It's the same in a preset system like in MKX where you had close to 100 variations and not everybody could learn everything.
It's not really the "learn stuff" that's the potential issue, it's the possibility of going into a fight not knowing which moves the opponent has selected and available, or what potential combination of moves the opponent has selected. It's just fewer permutations to have to deal with. IDK, very possible that's not even a big deal, just saying I get why NRS would be hesitant about this. With a good UI or good indicators maybe it's not so hard to know which moves your opponent selected, and then this ceases to be a thing.
 

IamBatface

www.mixer.com/WilfyDee
No. The vast majority of people would use whatever combination of moves is considered the strongest resulting in less creativity and variation. However, this is hardly a hill I would be willing to die on and if they announced in the Kombat Kast custom variations would be available in Ranked/Tournaments I wouldn't mind too much. I'm just happy to know one way or another.
 

DDustiNN

MK11 Pocket Guide: Koming Soon to the App Store
No. The vast majority of people would use whatever combination of moves is considered the strongest resulting in less creativity and variation. However, this is hardly a hill I would be willing to die on and if they announced in the Kombat Kast custom variations would be available in Ranked/Tournaments I wouldn't mind too much. I'm just happy to know one way or another.
Don’t people already choose the “strongest” variations though? And characters in general? How is this any different?

The only difference now is that you could remove a move you never use and replace it with something you actually like.
 

IamBatface

www.mixer.com/WilfyDee
Don’t people already choose the “strongest” variations though? And characters in general? How is this any different?

The only difference now is that you could remove a move you never use and replace it with something you actually like.
Sure, each character will have a most popular variation but each will have their own strengths and weaknesses making each one viable. With customs I feel like using nothing but the combination will only put you at a disadvantage rather that gaining a strength along with a weakness which is why we seen the same very versions of characters over and over again the beta.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
Don’t people already choose the “strongest” variations though? And characters in general? How is this any different?

The only difference now is that you could remove a move you never use and replace it with something you actually like.
If people only chose the strongest characters, 9/10 opponents online wouldn't be Scorpion and Sonic Fox wouldn't have made the entire injustice community look silly with Captain Cold.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Oh boy, a thread where I get to make a big ol' post about why *IM* right.

So! Before we get into this I want to say I absolutely love the concept of customizable variations and being able to really make your character the way you want them to be. With that being said, here's why that should probably never happen.

Firstly, balancing nightmare. Now I've seen a lot of arguments against this, even in this thread I've seen some solid arguments. They usually range very similar, Team games had this level of customization and did fine, Tekken moveslists being huge, other games in other genres doing it and being fine. To an extent, I understand all these arguments and get the logic of them but theres a few issues I have with them. Team games are HORRIBLY imbalanced. Not a single one is a balanced game in any aspect, from the falling apart at the seams MvC2 to the modern day examples like DBFZ, Team games just arent balanced and arent supposed to be. They are also the most customization you can usually have in a fighting game so as far as the "customizing in FGs" is concerned, the balancing is always sacrificed for it. With the Tekken moveslist argument that I've also weirdly heard a lot, less than the team argument but more than I would have ever expected, most moves in a Tekken moveslist are just basically whatever. A character will consist of a couple good moves and will ignore a large chunk of their moves as a result of focusing on those moves. This is absolutely something that would happen in MK11 and actually literally did happen in the custom moves. How many Kabals did you see use his parry or spin? Did you even know he HAD a parry or spin? Lastly the whole "other games have done it." Other games...arent FGs? I feel like that's pretty on the nose, they're just different and it's like comparing apples to oranges. I know this section might sound like a subtweet-esque tactic since multiple people in this thread have had these arguments but all this really is stuff I've heard in other places.

So what if we throw the balancing idea out the window? Like team fighters do, what if we embrace the chaos and simply say "go do the thing guys" this is where things get a bit more concerning to me than balance and that's the "why play any other character when *blank* exists" pops up. You could argue that with preset variations, this problem could arise as well and to an extent you'd be correct but acknowledge how much this would exacerbate the problem. Simply put, the possibility of there being one build on one character that just dominates everything and never needs changing is a lot higher than one variation preset by the dev's doing the same thing. The potential of this system absolutely killing any semblance of watch ability for the game or even the desire to play it, is astronomical. In a roster of 5 we already found this occurring with every Kabal being the same, every Skarlet was mostly the same, and so on and so forth. Scorpion was the biggest perpetrator of this because without sin Blade he became so...whatever.

In short I love customizability so much. I love the idea of building your character the way you want it to be and really shining through that way as a player but the cost to balance and more importantly the potential cost to character depth and variety within the competitive scene.

I've always been a strong proprietor of the idea that limitations drive creativity and this really isnt different, we got through MKX. This really isnt that different.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
If NRS would have made it clear from the start we would not be having this crisis. Why did we not have this issue in mkx or i2? Bc expectations were managed appropriately with clarification timing and kombat kast breakdowns.
^^^^^^ seconded, thirded and fourthed.

The point now isn't casual or competitive; it's that this entire debacle could've been avoided if they'd actually answered the question.

I still have doubts about this. NRS isn’t famous for balacing their games. Comparing MK with Tekken isn’t sensible
I don't mean it in a balance sense; I mean it in the sense that for the amount of time you have to spend in the lab in a Tekken game where it could take a year just to learn how to move, or a KOF game and its insane-compared-to-MK inputs and combos and such, people voting No to characters having their full moveset at their disposal because "it's too much to have to learn to fight against" makes me want to eat my own head.
It's one thing if we try it and it does turn out to be totally nuts, in which case I'll tip my hat and say good call to NRS. But not because people want an easy ride. I would rather all money be legal just because that's gonna be more incentive for me to lab the matchups until my eyes bleed.
 

Rearawt

Noob
So what if we throw the balancing idea out the window? Like team fighters do, what if we embrace the chaos and simply say "go do the thing guys" this is where things get a bit more concerning to me than balance and that's the "why play any other character when *blank* exists" pops up [...] Simply put, the possibility of there being one build on one character that just dominates everything and never needs changing[...]
That's still a question of balance though..?
You've gone "let's throw the balancing idea out the window" and then immediately reintroduced it
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
That's still a question of balance though..?
You've gone "let's throw the balancing idea out the window" and then immediately reintroduced it
A meta being dominated by one thing was in reference to the depth/variety of the meta in this post. It's the same point effecting a different aspect of the game.
 

Xelz

Go over there!
Oh boy, a thread where I get to make a big ol' post about why *IM* right.

So! Before we get into this I want to say I absolutely love the concept of customizable variations and being able to really make your character the way you want them to be. With that being said, here's why that should probably never happen.

Firstly, balancing nightmare. Now I've seen a lot of arguments against this, even in this thread I've seen some solid arguments. They usually range very similar, Team games had this level of customization and did fine, Tekken moveslists being huge, other games in other genres doing it and being fine. To an extent, I understand all these arguments and get the logic of them but theres a few issues I have with them. Team games are HORRIBLY imbalanced. Not a single one is a balanced game in any aspect, from the falling apart at the seams MvC2 to the modern day examples like DBFZ, Team games just arent balanced and arent supposed to be. They are also the most customization you can usually have in a fighting game so as far as the "customizing in FGs" is concerned, the balancing is always sacrificed for it. With the Tekken moveslist argument that I've also weirdly heard a lot, less than the team argument but more than I would have ever expected, most moves in a Tekken moveslist are just basically whatever. A character will consist of a couple good moves and will ignore a large chunk of their moves as a result of focusing on those moves. This is absolutely something that would happen in MK11 and actually literally did happen in the custom moves. How many Kabals did you see use his parry or spin? Did you even know he HAD a parry or spin? Lastly the whole "other games have done it." Other games...arent FGs? I feel like that's pretty on the nose, they're just different and it's like comparing apples to oranges. I know this section might sound like a subtweet-esque tactic since multiple people in this thread have had these arguments but all this really is stuff I've heard in other places.

So what if we throw the balancing idea out the window? Like team fighters do, what if we embrace the chaos and simply say "go do the thing guys" this is where things get a bit more concerning to me than balance and that's the "why play any other character when *blank* exists" pops up. You could argue that with preset variations, this problem could arise as well and to an extent you'd be correct but acknowledge how much this would exacerbate the problem. Simply put, the possibility of there being one build on one character that just dominates everything and never needs changing is a lot higher than one variation preset by the dev's doing the same thing. The potential of this system absolutely killing any semblance of watch ability for the game or even the desire to play it, is astronomical. In a roster of 5 we already found this occurring with every Kabal being the same, every Skarlet was mostly the same, and so on and so forth. Scorpion was the biggest perpetrator of this because without sin Blade he became so...whatever.

In short I love customizability so much. I love the idea of building your character the way you want it to be and really shining through that way as a player but the cost to balance and more importantly the potential cost to character depth and variety within the competitive scene.

I've always been a strong proprietor of the idea that limitations drive creativity and this really isnt different, we got through MKX. This really isnt that different.
You raise a lot of good points. But wouldn't a lot of your points be true about preset variations? For example, if we couldn't customize Scorpion's load out, wouldn't the majority of Scorpion's still have picked whichever preset variation had misery blade?

A lot of the sameness we saw across characters in the beta would be true if only presets were allowed, and was probably more due to lack of balance in the beta. Which is totally excusable because it's a beta and an old build.

But I agree that players will likely discover an "optimal" variation over time, and that will be true regardless of whether we get preset or custom variations in ranked/tournament play. That happens in nearly every game with customizable options: Magic the Gathering, Overwatch team compositions, Starcraft build orders, MvC3 assist selections. Some call this an illusion of choice, but oddly the solution that some developers pick to avoid "illusion of choice" is to remove choices entirely, as if that makes their game somehow more fun and interesting. World of Warcraft did that, and their player base dropped to a fraction of what is was before they implemented to those changes.

Other developers take a smarter approach. They recognize that part of the game is learning and discovering the meta. Whoever can decipher the meta first and discover an "optimal" load out gets an advantage. But then, thanks to a decent variety of choices, someone else discovers an "optimal" answer to the new meta, and then someone else discovers an "optimal" answer to that other "optimal" answer, and the meta evolves over months or years until it stagnates. And then the developer mixes up the meta by rebalancing, adding new abilities, new characters, new cards, etc. depending on the game type.

This meta development occurs regardless of custom variations, preset variations, or no variations. Even if there's a single "load out" per character, such as in MK9, I2, most other fighting games, then the meta will be about sorting out top tier characters and unviable characters. In MKX, Kitana - who had weak mixups in a game heavily favoring 50/50s - was slept on until Kitana Prime discovered some good tech which Sonic Fox then built on, and by realizing her potential earlier than others it gave Sonic Fox an advantage.

But here's the rub: meta's reach the end of their evolution earlier when options are few, and the game grows stale faster. Give each character one variation, and the meta can peak quickly. Sure, you can add a new character, but that alters 1/30th of the game, and the meta shifts a bit but rapidly reaches equilibrium once again.

On the other hand, give players more choices, and more rebalancing levers to the developers, such as altering move slot costs, move dependencies or conflicts (i.e. moves than can only be used with other moves or not with other movers), and the meta will a) take much longer before it's "solved", and b) can be refreshed much more easily by the developer, breathing new life into the game.

And yes, this isn't easy. There's a reason why LoL's and DOTA's success hasn't been easily copied. Why MtG has remained dominant since the 1990's. There's a skill barrier among developers to get this right. Those who do and embrace the role of the meta create a game that can dominate for decades.
 

Corruption100

Plus Frame Enjoyer
At least let them be available ffs. NRS wants to exclude even the possibility, that's what I'm against.
I definitely agree with this. I think it'd be fun to have customs, but I also think it'd have a high possibility be overrun with the same setups for some characters. So have it available as an option for tournament planners.
 

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
Oh boy, a thread where I get to make a big ol' post about why *IM* right.

So! Before we get into this I want to say I absolutely love the concept of customizable variations and being able to really make your character the way you want them to be. With that being said, here's why that should probably never happen.

Firstly, balancing nightmare. Now I've seen a lot of arguments against this, even in this thread I've seen some solid arguments. They usually range very similar, Team games had this level of customization and did fine, Tekken moveslists being huge, other games in other genres doing it and being fine. To an extent, I understand all these arguments and get the logic of them but theres a few issues I have with them. Team games are HORRIBLY imbalanced. Not a single one is a balanced game in any aspect, from the falling apart at the seams MvC2 to the modern day examples like DBFZ, Team games just arent balanced and arent supposed to be. They are also the most customization you can usually have in a fighting game so as far as the "customizing in FGs" is concerned, the balancing is always sacrificed for it. With the Tekken moveslist argument that I've also weirdly heard a lot, less than the team argument but more than I would have ever expected, most moves in a Tekken moveslist are just basically whatever. A character will consist of a couple good moves and will ignore a large chunk of their moves as a result of focusing on those moves. This is absolutely something that would happen in MK11 and actually literally did happen in the custom moves. How many Kabals did you see use his parry or spin? Did you even know he HAD a parry or spin? Lastly the whole "other games have done it." Other games...arent FGs? I feel like that's pretty on the nose, they're just different and it's like comparing apples to oranges. I know this section might sound like a subtweet-esque tactic since multiple people in this thread have had these arguments but all this really is stuff I've heard in other places.

So what if we throw the balancing idea out the window? Like team fighters do, what if we embrace the chaos and simply say "go do the thing guys" this is where things get a bit more concerning to me than balance and that's the "why play any other character when *blank* exists" pops up. You could argue that with preset variations, this problem could arise as well and to an extent you'd be correct but acknowledge how much this would exacerbate the problem. Simply put, the possibility of there being one build on one character that just dominates everything and never needs changing is a lot higher than one variation preset by the dev's doing the same thing. The potential of this system absolutely killing any semblance of watch ability for the game or even the desire to play it, is astronomical. In a roster of 5 we already found this occurring with every Kabal being the same, every Skarlet was mostly the same, and so on and so forth. Scorpion was the biggest perpetrator of this because without sin Blade he became so...whatever.

In short I love customizability so much. I love the idea of building your character the way you want it to be and really shining through that way as a player but the cost to balance and more importantly the potential cost to character depth and variety within the competitive scene.

I've always been a strong proprietor of the idea that limitations drive creativity and this really isnt different, we got through MKX. This really isnt that different.


You seem to be reasonably standing with the argument that kustom variations would be a bad idea, so let me ask you a quick question.

How do you feel about what's in this spoiler tag?

If a move is too good, then just limit that one ability, not the WHOLE GAME:

Amazing 2 Slot Ability:
Conflicts with Ability 1
Conflicts with Ability 3
Conflicts with Ability 5

But limiting EVERYTHING just because of a few things is burning the house down to kill the spider.

Putting harsh limitations on really good moves so they can't be paired with a whole mess of other moves would give the illusion of kustomization, but in reality it's basically just a forced pre-set variation, yes. This is true.

It'd basically be just like pre-sets for these certain situations only.


Things deemed "fine" would be unaffected and people would still have their freedom to play.

There is a way of limiting the scary stuff and still giving people the illusion of "freedom" by picking between harmless movesets and micro-changes that make people happy.

I'm really curious. What would you have to say against this?

In the end, NRS chose what they chose and we'll still play regardless, but I honestly just think it was a choice they made.

A choice and nothing more.

Both sides of this argument have solutions, I just think they thought the as a whole pre-sets is what competitive players wanted, not that it was such a flawed system that it is impractical.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
You seem to be reasonably standing with the argument that kustom variations would be a bad idea, so let me ask you a quick question.

How do you feel about what's in this spoiler tag?

If a move is too good, then just limit that one ability, not the WHOLE GAME:

Amazing 2 Slot Ability:
Conflicts with Ability 1
Conflicts with Ability 3
Conflicts with Ability 5

But limiting EVERYTHING just because of a few things is burning the house down to kill the spider.

Putting harsh limitations on really good moves so they can't be paired with a whole mess of other moves would give the illusion of kustomization, but in reality it's basically just a variation.

This is true. It'd basically be just like pre-sets for these certain situations only.
Things deemed "fine" would be unaffected and people would still have their freedom to play.

I'm really curious. What would you have to say against this?

In the end, NRS chose what they chose and we'll still play regardless, but I honestly just think it was a choice they made.

A choice and nothing more.

Both sides of this argument have solutions, I just think they thought the as a whole pre-sets is what competitive players wanted, not that it was such a flawed system that it is impractical.
I think it could work but would require a tremendous amount of effort. Which isnt necessarily a bad thing but the "constant patching" issue that people didnt like previously would get a lot worse.
 

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
I think it could work but would require a tremendous amount of effort. Which isnt necessarily a bad thing but the "constant patching" issue that people didnt like previously would get a lot worse.
You're predicting the future with "would get a lot worse" here, but yeah, it's definitely a possibility.

If they would have implemented the direction I mentioned above early they could have balanced around it from the start though.
The amount of effort shouldn't be really relevant imo too. With the amount of love put into MK11, saying that things would be too hard for them would likely not be their mindset as developers.

It's only human to have thoughts like:

"Well if they chose this then the alternative must be flawed and here are the reasons why I think they thought it was flawed"

but what it boils down to is, like I said, they chose pre-sets because they thought it was what would be best received. Either way there was going to be turmoil.

Imo i just think they didn't expect this kind of reaction. If they marketed things differently this might not even be a thing right now.
 
Last edited:

Jhonnykiller45

Shirai Ryu
Without necessarily taking any side in this debate, the one thing I'm wondering is: how is it anyone was willing to trust in NRS to actually make customs balanced and viable, but at the same time you don't have enough faith that pre-sets can be balanced and good as well? People bringing up the beta pre-sets which were quite literally unfinished and made with little thought to them, like really.
If there're any moves that end up unused or pre-sets poorly put together, why not just ask NRS to change that and/or make a new variation? Paulo has already gone on record to say they're open to adding more variations as the game goes on.
For the record I have not read this thread or others so excuse me if this point/question has already been made.
 

Kroaken

Life is a block string with no gaps.
Without necessarily taking any side in this debate, the one thing I'm wondering is: how is it anyone was willing to trust in NRS to actually make customs balanced and viable, but at the same time you don't have enough faith that pre-sets can be balanced and good as well? People bringing up the beta pre-sets which were quite literally unfinished and made with little thought to them, like really.
If there're any moves that end up unused or pre-sets poorly put together, why not just ask NRS to change that and/or make a new variation? Paulo has already gone on record to say they're open to adding more variations as the game goes on.
For the record I have not read this thread or others so excuse me if this point/question has already been made.
Nobody is arguing that pre-set variations are going to be bad. We just wanted the choice. Almost always on the side of more choice. As far as balance is concerned, I don't expect either of them - Kustom or Pre-canned - to be balanced. They never have been and likely never will be.
 

98Greener

Greenlord Memelord
With there being less than a month of MK11 being released, I doubt that we'll see custom variations allowed in ranked play right as the game launches. But given this gigantic vocal outcry, a more optimistic part of me thinks they'll maybe add an update where custom variations will be allowed there? Just some hopeful, but probably naive, thoughts.