Breakthrough - Lackey Patch notes 10-4-16

[Trauma_and_Pain]

Ferra Toss advantage was totally removed, so a decent nerf to Ruthless/Vicious, which I think was uncalled for--for Vicious. Lackey's placement is probably about the same. Very possibly Vicious is the character's worst variation now.

• General Gameplay fixes
  • Many move list corrections
  • Increased energy cost to start running to 25 (up from 15)
  • Increased energy cost to cancel into a dash (where applicable) to 25 (up from 15)
  • Getting hit while running will now drain 50 energy
  • The increased hurt regions when you perform an air attack now activate one frame before the hit region activates
  • Kounter message added when a hit lands as a counterattack or punish
  • Delayed Wakeup will no longer activate if the block button is pressed or held while holding down
  • You are no longer able use specific timing to avoid recovery frames on some jump attacks which used weapons
  • Reduced the victim blockstun along with the attacker block recovery on many moves (keeping the same +|- on block advantage)
  • WBID unlocks no longer have additional requirements

Ferra Toss is now about neutral at touching distance depending on how tall the enemy is and how soon Ferra hits them. Against taller characters it's negative. Still slightly plus at longer ranges.

The Energy cost bump probably helps Ruthless/Vicious just slightly, but hurts Lackey a bit. Pain & Gain Run cancels are going to still cost such a small amount of Energy, that I don't think it's going to matter much for Ruthless.

The AA buffs are pretty neutral for us, I think.

NJP seems to have the same hurtbox nerf as jump-ins. Seems like it's easier to hit Torr's arms with uppercuts now as he swings Ferra, but Ferra has no hurtbox and we're still winning out against almost all AA attempts against NJP, we're just losing sometimes at close range now if the opponent times it just right.

 

[omooba]

Ferra Toss advantage was totally removed, so a decent nerf to Ruthless/Vicious, which I think was uncalled for--for Vicious. Lackey's placement is probably about the same. Very possibly Vicious is the character's worst variation now.

• General Gameplay fixes
  • Many move list corrections
  • Increased energy cost to start running to 25 (up from 15)
  • Increased energy cost to cancel into a dash (where applicable) to 25 (up from 15)
  • Getting hit while running will now drain 50 energy
  • The increased hurt regions when you perform an air attack now activate one frame before the hit region activates
  • Kounter message added when a hit lands as a counterattack or punish
  • Delayed Wakeup will no longer activate if the block button is pressed or held while holding down
  • You are no longer able use specific timing to avoid recovery frames on some jump attacks which used weapons
  • Reduced the victim blockstun along with the attacker block recovery on many moves (keeping the same +|- on block advantage)
  • WBID unlocks no longer have additional requirements

Ferra Toss is now about neutral at touching distance depending on how tall the enemy is and how soon Ferra hits them. Against taller characters it's negative. Still slightly plus at longer ranges.

The Energy cost bump probably helps Ruthless/Vicious just slightly, but hurts Lackey a bit. Pain & Gain Run cancels are going to still cost such a small amount of Energy, that I don't think it's going to matter much for Ruthless.

The AA buffs are pretty neutral for us, I think.

NJP seems to have the same hurtbox nerf as jump-ins. Seems like it's easier to hit Torr's arms with uppercuts now as he swings Ferra, but Ferra has no hurtbox and we're still winning out against almost all AA attempts against NJP, we're just losing sometimes at close range now if the opponent times it just right.

even with this i'll still put lackey under vicious cus vicious has better spacing

 

[Blewdew]

even with this i'll still put lackey under vicious cus vicious has better spacing

Vicious actually benefits from the universal changes. And oh toss not being +10 on block anymore was obvious that it would be removed someday so it's not that shocking

 

[omooba]

Vicious actually benefits from the universal changes. And oh toss not being +10 on block anymore was obvious that it would be removed someday so it's not that shocking

he said it's zero on block and sometimes negative. i didn't see that coming and again that's not the worst part for me. it's that lackey got nerfed and got nothing in return. compared to everyone else i think he's worst in the game

 

[Doombawkz]

Hmm...

 

[Blewdew]

he said it's zero on block and sometimes negative. i didn't see that coming and again that's not the worst part for me. it's that lackey got nerfed and got nothing in return. compared to everyone else i think he's worst in the game

Zero on block is fine. I mean I play ruthless I usually don't even use it and f2 oh toss is still plus, but not enough to jail into b1. And I don't disagree with you on lackey I think he's ass too lol

 

[Wetdoba]

Lackey was not nerfed. Universal removal of armored combo starters is not a Lackey specific nerf, if anything he benefits from that because now Lackeys armor options offer more versatility than everyone elses. And as stated earlier, less reward and more risk with armor for everyone else = more hesitation = easier conditioning for Lackeys offense which was very much based on conditioning people to block

 

[Doombawkz]

Not to mention Lackey got to keep his dumb frame set-ups which usually left him at +1 or neutral. His longer limbs will help him in the footsie game.

 

[Wetdoba]

And oki after charge is gonna be redic without the armor into full combo threat

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

Another thing is that 4 xx 2+4 is now going to be more useful, since Toss is worse.

It's actually sort of sad. Ferra Toss lost it's identity. I'm not sure it's even worth canceling into now. May even be best canceling blockstrings into Boss Toss for the knockback and trying to play Vicious as more of a zoner since run-ins are a little worse and being hit while running costs stamina.

 

[omooba]

Zero on block is fine. I mean I play ruthless I usually don't even use it and f2 oh toss is still plus, but not enough to jail into b1. And I don't disagree with you on lackey I think he's ass too lol

you mean you agree with me on lackey? lol
and ruthless doesn't need it vicious does or make boss toss go full screen but eh it's wtv

 

[Blewdew]

you mean you agree with me on lackey? lol
and ruthless doesn't need it vicious does or make boss toss go full screen but eh it's wtv

Yes

I see that lackey may benefit in certain matchups from the universal changes but in the matchups where he struggled to get in it's now even harder. Against characters like kotal I liked using lackey to blow up gaps but since he can't do that anymore is there any reason to pick him above ruthless in any mu in The game?

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Gotta say I did not expect OH toss to get nerfed. Yes overall they reduced crazy plus frames, but OH toss was nothing compared to swarm puddle, liu Kang/hellfire jailing, or some of tremor's projectile block advantage. And even if it was, we get one rep, at the cost of our moveset, as soon as she's out we can't trap into another string and throw another one. Why not just make cancelling into OH from anything have a gap? Seems a fair trade and inline with removing armoured launchers. It was only really dangerous in the corner, so our corner game is kinda dead which I guess isn't all bad as we've always had a strong neutral midscreen game.

Ruthless didn't really rely on it, but this kills the Vicious. Still a solid character, but I think we all kind of expected to get off light and move up with everyone moving down, which in a way we did, but at the cost of our best pressure tool.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Another thing is that 4 xx 2+4 is now going to be more useful, since Toss is worse.

They really should have buffed this string, its one that falls under the "Practically useless so why even bother using it" strings. Faster, and maybe some more hit advantage, so you don't feel as naked for as long, would actually give a good reason to use it, especially in vicious.

 

[Apex Kano]

Lackey didn't get NERFED nerfed. He got just got a couple universal nerfs and loads of others got buffed. So he drops a few pegs by default, which sucks.

The universal stamina nerf with no increase to F/T run speed might be the worst part of this patch for lackey. Good luck getting in on Mournful or Piercing.

I feel Lackey is not going ro be used anymore. There is no point in trying to use him. The whole point was using his armor for advantage. At least the other two are still somewhat strong.

 

[Blewdew]

I feel Lackey is not going ro be used anymore. There is no point in trying to use him. The whole point was using his armor for advantage. At least the other two are still somewhat strong.

Exactly. Why use lackey when you can use ruthless

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Exactly. Why use lackey when you can use ruthless

Because I love giving hugs

 

[Cooljaxx]

Up punch EX armor was lowkey lackeys best Armor option.

 

[Wetdoba]

So after playing for a bit last night I do have to say that Lackey is feeling weak in this meta, but its not because of the lack of armor on EX Torryuken or because of better overall zoning. The main issue I was having was that unless I hit someone with a charge, there is just no reliable way to meaty someone to maintain pressure on knockdown. For instance I was playing against a tempest lao and he was still able to dance around me all day and then when I was actually able to grab him once I just threw him fullscreen and its back to square one.

Now I have no problem with Lao flying around the screen all day on Lackey because that makes sense, its just that when Lackey gets a clean command grab in play time for Lao should be over, but instead its nothing more than a 14% slap on the wrist. Lackey needs to be the Zangief of this game, Giefs command grab does not throw you fullscreen forcing him to play his opponents game all over again, when Gief grabs you now you play Giefs game, same concept here should apply. I dont know how they can give Subzero with an iceball and no whiff recovery slide a command grab that goes in a HKD directly in front of him or a full combo ending in HKD for a bar yet with Lackey nothing. Command grab in Lackey should leave the opponent directly next to him and be plus double digits minimum on hit. Why Lackey does not have the best command grab in the game is kind of baffling. I dont even want all the braindead tick throw options they give characters like erron black or cryomancer, but at least make Lackeys grab have the most advantage of any grab in the game.

Vicious and Ruthless feel great so far though because of their neutral, the ferra toss nerf didnt matter much since its still a 50-50 on low or overhead toss. Mixed in with staggers I was keeping pressure up fine. People running into low toss and losing all stamina feels great and boss toss has never been better

 

[Blewdew]

Because I love giving hugs

I love the sound lackeys command grab makes but it is what it is

 

[Wetdoba]

So after playing for a bit last night I do have to say that Lackey is feeling weak in this meta, but its not because of the lack of armor on EX Torryuken or because of better overall zoning. The main issue I was having was that unless I hit someone with a charge, there is just no reliable way to meaty someone to maintain pressure on knockdown. For instance I was playing against a tempest lao and he was still able to dance around me all day and then when I was actually able to grab him once I just threw him fullscreen and its back to square one.

Now I have no problem with Lao flying around the screen all day on Lackey because that makes sense, its just that when Lackey gets a clean command grab in play time for Lao should be over, but instead its nothing more than a 14% slap on the wrist. Lackey needs to be the Zangief of this game, Giefs command grab does not throw you fullscreen forcing him to play his opponents game all over again, when Gief grabs you now you play Giefs game, same concept here should apply. I dont know how they can give Subzero with an iceball and no whiff recovery slide a command grab that goes in a HKD directly in front of him or a full combo ending in HKD for a bar yet with Lackey nothing. Command grab in Lackey should leave the opponent directly next to him and be plus double digits minimum on hit. Why Lackey does not have the best command grab in the game is kind of baffling. I dont even want all the braindead tick throw options they give characters like erron black or cryomancer, but at least make Lackeys grab have the most advantage of any grab in the game.

Vicious and Ruthless feel great so far though because of their neutral, the ferra toss nerf didnt matter much since its still a 50-50 on low or overhead toss. Mixed in with staggers I was keeping pressure up fine. People running into low toss and losing all stamina feels great and boss toss has never been better

Fuck it @colt

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Can I just be super salty about Cryo tick throws? Like SUPER SALTY. He has great mobility in strings, speed and slide, and his overall playstyle means being near you is never a problem. But why on earth does he get to tick off so many strings??. Can we even backdash or jump out from this? will hammer not catch us?

Since this game came out Ferra/Torr has always had a powerful grapple game, but he can't tick off shit. Vicious technically has the most tick throws at a whopping 3 normals, but his command grab is the worst of the variations

 

[joeldm]

Lackey is very slow. He near Jason looks like a turtle

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

when I was actually able to grab him once I just threw him fullscreen and its back to square one.

Now with these changes more than ever, Lackey needs this shit fixed. There's no reason for it and I totally agree with the comparison to Zangief. And I haven't used Sub's command grab yet, but if it's a HKD at near touching distance, that's just bullshit.

Why is Lackey the only grappler that throws his opponent so far, when he has less zoning tools than anyone? It should be more like Jax's command grab.

If this truly is the final patch, it's too late though.

 

[dennycascade]

Yeah, I can't think of a single variation in this game worse than the new lackey, and bio said he can't either. EX torryuken was by far his best tool but instead of making him spend 2 bars or something like they did with other characters, they removed the armor mindgame completely. EX charge is horrible, most characters can meaty with a poke or jab and tick the armor while still recovering in time to block and punish it. Now all you have to fear is command grab and EX roll, and in the new meta, most characters would rather just take that little chunk of damage and go right back to zoning him out. MKX's meta now revolves more around neutral and zoning, and of course lackey having possibly the worst neutral in the game doesn't help. Like wetdoba said, he can grab you once and then it's party time for anyone with a projectile.