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Ok these guys hacked SFIII arc rom...

MKK hanzo

Moderator
UMK3 "rebalanced" (if possible) - Sektor -

...And are making a "rebalanced" version of 3S. New specials, supers, abilities, etc.

Fuck 3S my interest is if that could be done on arcade UMK3 rom? Any chance to introduce the new chars? This is not Mugen shit. Is the real thing. Sure they are doing some stuff that could seem unfair (Hugo) etc. But is a great step.

http://shoryuken.com/f2/street-fighter-iii-4th-strike-242032/

Seems interesting and they have 80% done, I mean they have the ENGINE already.
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
It's unfortunate Kabal_MK wants nothing to with the MK community because he might be able to do something really special. He doesn't even release his updates anymore. He's really selfish it seems.
 
It's unfortunate Kabal_MK wants nothing to with the MK community because he might be able to do something really special. He doesn't even release his updates anymore. He's really selfish it seems.
He's hacking the arcade version of UMK3 right now isn't he?
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
He's hacking the arcade version of UMK3 right now isn't he?
I dunno. He said a while back that he would only ever hack Genesis because that's his favorite version, and that it would take too much time to edit the arcade roms. If he hacks UMK3 it will be a disaster. I don't think MK and MKII would have the same interchangeable properties either that the Genesis versions of the game had, all using the 68000 processor. If they do that'd be great, but he'd make it terrible like his Genesis hack, regardless of how neat and creative it is. He doesn't edit for balance, just for fun.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
I dunno. He said a while back that he would only ever hack Genesis because that's his favorite version, and that it would take too much time to edit the arcade roms. If he hacks UMK3 it will be a disaster. I don't think MK and MKII would have the same interchangeable properties either that the Genesis versions of the game had, all using the 68000 processor. If they do that'd be great, but he'd make it terrible like his Genesis hack, regardless of how neat and creative it is. He doesn't edit for balance, just for fun.
What about hacking MKT for PSX/PC/N64?
 
...And are making a "rebalanced" version of 3S. New specials, supers, abilities, etc.

Fuck 3S my interest is if that could be done on arcade UMK3 rom? Any chance to introduce the new chars? This is not Mugen shit. Is the real thing. Sure they are doing some stuff that could seem unfair (Hugo) etc. But is a great step.

http://shoryuken.com/f2/street-fighter-iii-4th-strike-242032/

Seems interesting and they have 80% done, I mean they have the ENGINE already.
Wow, I saw that earlier today, it's cool, but I didn't think about the possibility of hacking UMK3. That could be really cool, rebalance the characters, maybe add in a balanced Noob for character selection and a few new moves for everyone if the rest goes well.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Wow, I saw that earlier today, it's cool, but I didn't think about the possibility of hacking UMK3. That could be really cool, rebalance the characters, maybe add in a balanced Noob for character selection and a few new moves for everyone if the rest goes well.
IMO the list of nerfs/balances isnt that long:

* Revome Noobs disabler and make it FREEZE (aka Sub Zero). Is the same shit and have a hit limit of 1 or 2.

* Remove Rain inf.

* Make kabal Spin Dash ACTIVATE Damage Protection (lol i meant it seriously). He will be still a beast.

* Remove relaunchers.

* Add a BIT of more dmg protection on H. Smoke combos and the Tlk Slam from ermac to have Dmg prot too. (Just a bit so none of them can land 60% every time they touch you).

* MKII Lao to do NORMAL dmg. REMOVE his HP OTG combo ability.


Buffs? nah. Everybody is fine aside from:

* Cage to do N64 dmge (he does less in psx/pc)


I dont know what to think this is only out of my mind.

Ah! Leave corner Rjab infs in the corner please hehehehe >=D
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
IMO the list of nerfs/balances isnt that long:

* Revome Noobs disabler and make it FREEZE (aka Sub Zero). Is the same shit and have a hit limit of 1 or 2.

* Remove Rain inf.

* Make kabal Spin Dash ACTIVATE Damage Protection (lol i meant it seriously). He will be still a beast.

* Remove relaunchers.

* Add a BIT of more dmg protection on H. Smoke combos and the Tlk Slam from ermac to have Dmg prot too. (Just a bit so none of them can land 60% every time they touch you).

* MKII Lao to do NORMAL dmg. REMOVE his HP OTG combo ability.


Buffs? nah. Everybody is fine aside from:

* Cage to do N64 dmge (he does less in psx/pc)


I dont know what to think this is only out of my mind.

Ah! Leave corner Rjab infs in the corner please hehehehe >=D
A lot of this stuff applies to UMK3, but I'll include MKT as well.

Make Noob's Disabler only disable block, not attack collision, limit of 4 hits before it's disabled just like a spear so you could mix it up with his other moves, and remove the combo break when it wears off. You don't even have to reduce the speed as much as the start up. That would still make it a unique move but not nearly as broken.

You'd also have to fix his clone throw, it's broken too.

Teleport I would suggest limiting it to once per combo, like a Sub-Freeze/Jade Kick.

Make Rain's Super RH a special move, B, B, HK, limit it to once in a combo, limit the Rain Ball I would say more like Ermac's slam, and the Lightning can stay the way it is, in fact I would say it should be a ducking block only move.

I have thought about making the Spin do Damage protection, but actually, it might be more reasonable to make the collision not happen until he's in the actual "Dash" animation. Normal Kabal start up with frame advantage is 4 frames before you are in the spin, and 7 frames before he is in the actual animation for the Dash, that doesn't look like normal running animation. These extra 3 frames would go a long way because you'd actually be able to see him start moving. Adding DP would cripple him damage-wise, it might be a better idea to make just the Fireball itself do a little less damage, and his throw too. Fix the damage protection reset bug when they drop out of the Spin during DP.

Removing relaunchers would be grand, but possibly very difficult. This would probably require knowing a LOT about the actual programming of the game system, and could be a fundamental part of functionality.

Rather than DPing Smoke's combos, maybe DP at the Spear, or perhaps limit the amount of hits he can do before it to 3. It'd knock his combos down a bit, and make a number of mid 50% standards into just under 50%, and maybe even eliminate his air throw and forget about DP at all.

For Ermac, DP for his TKS would probably work very well because it wouldn't change his autocombo damage at all, just naked TKS and aaHP combos. This would effectively eliminate his corner 100%s, but he could still break 50% in some cases. Possibly, make the TKS count as part of a combo.

MKII Kung Lao's HP otg is kinda neat actually, since it's blockable I don't think there's any reason to remove it. Other characters can do it with knee lifts.

All characters should do standard UMK3 damage, even fix Liu Kang's weird JP that does the wrong damage and give him normal damage on his pop up combo. 70% Liu corner combos!

There is a laundry list of changes to other characters that could help them here and there.

Remove Damage Protection from Cyrax and Sheeva's throws.

Give Sub his real 6 hit ground combo damage.

Give Mileena real damage for her 6 hit combo after a starter, and take away DP on her Sai Shot. There's no reason for it to be there because IF you can combo without DP already being there going into a Sai Shot, and combo after it, you DESERVE the full damage because you a frigging master. Eliminate her pop up as well and give it to Jade! A pop up combo would help her out a lot, also air projectile protection. Make Mileena's her Roll do 15%, change nothing else about it, and watch the smiles.

Eliminate Stryker's Riot Gun infinite by making the time limit more like Kitana's fan throw, but give him normal damage properties for his Baton Throw (no self DP on 3 hits) and this would help bring up the damage on the end of his combo so he could still break 50% off a JP starter. There's a chance even with Kitana's time limit that the Riot Gun could still be performed a second time in a combo, but it's unlikely that it would leave the opponent in any kind of position to receive further damage except maybe a Grenade

Have Sonya's Leg Grab do normal DP to itself after 3 hits, not Double DP.

Baraka DP on Blade Spin.

Robot Smoke and Reptile invisibilty time limit like Shang's morphs. If you're gonna go invis, shit or get off the pot, don't sit across the screen like a bitch waiting for an attack!

MKII and MK3 Kung Lao Spin disable the Dive Kick.

Nightwolf, add just *2* frames of recovery time to his shoulder tackle when blocked.

MK1 Raiden, make his ducking LK recovery the same as MK1 Kano's. He can still do multiple Ducking LKs but not infinite.

Add whatever recovery time is necessary to his turn around on a whiffed elbow Dash to eliminate his infinites, but not completely eliminate the property it has that enables you to do some kind of juggling, ie: they drop more each volley which might cause the third punch to miss, or making 3 hits in any way impossible. This is not fool proof of course, it may come down to just limiting its usage somehow and removing the ability altogether which NO ONE wants! This time recovery on the turn around might not have to be applied when you run beyond the character on the ground when they don't block. If it did however, it would make it easier to counter him coming in from the other side. Not everyone can, but some have moves fast enough to snuff Reptile's elbow dash.

Classic Sub, I really don't know what could be done to make him better without making him more like Unmasked Sub. Maybe give him something ridiculous like limit his freeze to 4 hits so he could freeze you after a pop up and reposition you a bit and get more out of juggles.

For Jax, don't have the single and double missiles affect how the other works, but still give them both individual recharge time as it exists in UMK3. For example if you do a single missile, you cannot do a double missile for the same duration you can't do a single missile. This way you could do double missile, single missile, but then have to wait a bit to do either again, and vice versa, but still not as bad as MK3 where he could do double missile, 3 singles, double, forever.

Shang Tsung, allow spamming of single skulls only, not for all 3 types, and add recharge time to them only during combos, similar to Scorpion's spear (You can spam it but once it hits you have to wait). This would prevent aaHP, Skull corner infinite.

Make Sindel's hit counting work correctly during her screams, which may actually just be a reset property of the scream itself so that would have to be changed.

I'm sure I missed some stuff here and there but that's a pretty good list of things that could be done to shuffle the characters around without having to add anything that doesn't already exist, and utilizing existing programming as much as possible to modify things as well.

Corner jab infinites, I don't know exactly how to remove them outright, but it may be possible to just force pushback on 3 consecutive jabs without a timer being involved, as that's what it seems to be, 3 jabs have to be blocked within like 1 second.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
On characters with insane damage throws and setups afterwards (kabal, kitana, sheeva), lower the damage a bit, but also drain the run meter so they can't be on top of you on wakeup.

Corner jab infinites could be removed if you just make ALL attacks, even one jab, cause iceskate. You might think that this will ruin the current corner game, but it really doesn't. You can still stay at your magic range and punish jumpouts or you can run in and get your chip damage like you normally do...you just can't abuse double jabs all day. This is the right move.

Also, I can't stress this enough...Nightwolf's autocombo with the axe needs to drain run AND cause pushback. You can't add too much recovery to the dash because characters like Mileena, Usub, Kabal, spear characters, can punish him for free. That move simply needs more pushback unless it hits.
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
Icestake on all corner attacks is definitely pushin' it for me, there's gotta be a better way. It would destroy corners if even air stuff was affected.

Run Meter drain on certain throws is a good idea, and Run Meter on NW's Axe as well. He can still get 3 axes without Run though, without giving it any added push back, but I don't know what the pushback would do to him in addition to the run meter drain. I think it's one or the other.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
You're right about the corner jabs, but what else can be done? ...and it would fix the problem.

I just meant to drain run on the initial axe (which I think already happens), but to cause pushback on block as well. I like the run axes in combos.
 
Corner jab infinite is dumb. I'm surprised I don't see it at all in the USA tournaments. Is there a reason for that, or is there just not an opportunity? Also, the constant HP/LP while blocking is annoying as well. Not kara jabbing, I'm talking about how you can stand in one spot and spam HP/LP while blocking. I also don't see this at tournaments, but both are abused like hell online.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
facepalm at what thread has become lmao

MKT if anything, just needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Fixing and tweaking it would take a lifetime :)
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
GREAT list Shock.

Also, NW SR CAN be punished by faster moves on block. Kano SRK cannonball, Kabal Dash, another NW SR, etc.

But yes he should have a bit more push back. Not to mention that MKT PC/PSX NW SR has LESS starting frames so you can do aaSR aaSR in mid screen etc.
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
You're right about the corner jabs, but what else can be done? ...and it would fix the problem.

I just meant to drain run on the initial axe (which I think already happens), but to cause pushback on block as well. I like the run axes in combos.
Run should drain on the Axe :) regardless, like Liu's Bike Kick. If they can assign it to that special move they can assign it to any.

The Axe in his combo does not effect the Run Bar recharge. When you do his 4 hit combo, it takes 27 frames (1/2 second) for the Run bar to begin recharging after the 4th hit begins recovery (the marker I selected to begin counting the recharge time), same for when you add the Axe, meaning, there are 37 frames of wait time after the 4th hit cancels to the Axe, before you can Run even if you include the Axe, however performing the Axe removes 10 frames of recovery from the 4th hit, making the recharge time equal. If you added Run drain to the Axe, it might take it a half second more to recharge, but it'd drain Run after each Axe, preventing the Run steps, but still allowing for 50% in some scenarios, like off a JP, which is fine, but he has to earn it. Basically a standard max NW ground combo would not break 46%, and would almost always require use of the Tackle to guarantee the last hit.

And let's not forget his corner infinite. The easiest way to address this (avoiding changing collision detection or collision properties for ALL ground combos [would eliminate things like ducking LKs and slide after corner combos]), is adding extra frames of recovery to the RH, making it recovery. NW has 27 frames of recovery after the RH connects. He would need I believe, 33 frames of recovery to prevent him from being able to combo another kick , ie: giving the Robots, Sheeva, Kabal, and Kano enough time to fully ground recover. And I just checked Sonya's 3 hit kick combo, she has 33 frames of recovery after contact.

As for corner jabs, it'd be worth investigating the timing for push back and see if the duration can be lengthened, that's all. For blocked LPs, the button must be pressed 3 times consecutively within 30ish frames. If you can space the jabbing out over 38 frames but get them to link, it will not push back, so for example if you stretch the duration to 40 frames, it will not push back.

Basically, the frame count goes:

Press LP, 10 game frames happen, the contact jab animation = frame 10 (not animation frame 10) and then count off 3 more frames and press LP again. Do this everytime and it will never push back. Try this with counting 2 frames after the contact frame appears and you will be pushed back. A combination of 1, 2, and 3 frame pauses = push back. 2, 2, 3 = push back, 2, 3, 3 = no push back.

It might be a good idea to determine the exact maximum amount of frames you have to cancel jabs and make them consecutive, and make that the limit, which would always push back on 3 jabs. This would not prevent corner Runjab lockdown, that is escapable. Right now, I think the minimum extended jab duration is a total of pressing LP within 39 frames, and the max is 42 frames. If you wait more than 4 frames to press LP after contact frame appears, the LPs will not link. Konqrr, or Dreemer test it out. The frame advance gets very easy to do after about 10 tries. The frames may be offset by 1 or 2 frames in terms of frame appearance, but the actual variables are definitely 2, 3, 3 minimum and 4, 4, 4 maximum.
 
...

facepalm at what thread has become lmao

MKT if anything, just needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Fixing and tweaking it would take a lifetime :)
I agree on this...

Also I don't like the system UMK3 had to limit moves, it should be a mix of systems, used with base in testing to balance special moves. Something like this:

- Consumes the RUN bar:
You'll be able to do the move but it will take some or all of your running bar depending of the move.

- Requires certain percentage of the RUN bar:
Like Raiden's teleport; it could consume 1/3 of your run bar, so you'll be able to use it only 3 times per combo "if" your bar was full... if you have no run bar, you won't be able to do it.

- It can only be done a certain number of times during a juggle:
So it doesn't matter if you do it at the beginning or after 10 hits... the limit here is you can do it only once, or two or 3 times, depending of the move you're limiting here.

- It can be done only after certain number of hits:
the way it is in MK4... after 4 hits you can do the move, but after 5 hits you cannot... this once more will depend of the move.

- It can be done only a certain number of times:
like counter attacks in MKD... a limit that would last the whole fight; certain moves could be limited by the same icon of Counter MKD had, wich should be usable too for counter attacking kombos (this counter system I'm talking here that will also work to limit moves like Noob's Dark Cloud is part of a system I haven't explained yet, it is something I have in mind for my project, and it is far more complex that that).

- The most you do it, the less effective will be:
like regaining health... you do the move and regain health, you do it again and regain less health until the move is worthless (this would aply to the whole fight and not just to a round.

I don't think UMK3 limit system was good at all, it is cheatable, way too simple and just broken and wrong. I also think using UMK3 as a base even if it were possible would be harder than doing everything from scratch. We could only be able to do little modifications to the gameplay, it would be more restrictive than MUGEN unless we had someone from the inside that could help us to understand the codding and stuff like that, it is just unviable.
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
" Consumes the RUN bar:
You'll be able to do the move but it will take some or all of your running bar depending of the move."

No way.

Individual Move limitations are good. You can do a lot of balancing and tweaking this way. Depleted Run Bar prevents you from running, and that's it, that's why it's a Run bar.

And I see there's a lot more I need to address, but I don't have time. I'll get back to this thread later.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
MKII Kung Lao's HP otg is kinda neat actually, since it's blockable I don't think there's any reason to remove it. Other characters can do it with knee lifts.
I said it cause some players here abuse that shit. Example they run against you and if you are on the ground they just spam HP+LP+BLK (or in Kabal case HP+BLK+down) and if you dont block they will otg, but if they arent close enough they will just do a lot of HP-LP flurries that have "auto block" lol. And they STILL ARE on the offensive!
 
If Shock's list happened I would play that game all god damn day. The only other thing I can think of that I would add is to give Sektor something. I think he relies too heavily on normals and tp as it is, which makes his playstyle pretty stale as is, and I can see some of those other changes hurting him because of it. I don't know what would be best to give him yet, maybe improved recovery on straight and homing missiles like you said to do with Shang's fireball.
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
Perhaps a Smart/Dumb Missile combo moving, similar to the Double Missile, but with less lifespan for the Smart Missile. This would cause forward lockdown and then the randomness of the Smart missile as well, but there would have to be some kind of special recovery for it.

I've also toyed with the idea of a manually detonated bomb for Cyrax. Could be really broken though.

Looking at the rest of Frozenworm's reasoning, I really just gotta say that you don't understand UMK3 and this inevitably brings us back to the ideas in MUGEN games. It's really a backwards and cheesy way of limiting things if you do it like that. The problem with MKII is there wasn't much limiting at all, so they threw in the 4 hit juggle limit, which can be fooled with special moves. In UMK3, the combo system is less broken than MKII, and yet more open. If UMK3 had the air bounce effect on 4 hit juggles, I would never have played it as long as I have. That concept is like Maximum damage. Rather than micromanage limitation, let's limit EVERYTHING the same way. Ridiculous. It is because of UMK3's solid juggle and combo system, that it has survived all the other MK games and the only one that can be played on a respectable competitive level.

You say UMK3's system was cheatable, but I really don't know what you mean by cheatable. There are a few things that break, like relaunch combos, and some recoveries like on autocombos, but MKII and MK4 have systems that are pure examples of cheatable systems. They both have standardized rules that can be avoided.

A special move bar is absolutely 100% out of the question, let alone using the Run Bar for it. I mean, you can still Run but you can't do specials because you're out of Run? That makes ZERO sense. You're creating a new, pointless bar by doing this.

I apologize too, I know I'm coming off like a jerk the way I'm responding but it's really that mindboggling you'd even suggest that. It's the MUGEN way of doing it honestly, and if your game has these features, I can speak for the majority here by saying, we're not going to play or endorse it.

Getting back to the topic, doing a one move limitation but available any time creates some potentially massive broken possibilities. If you could do Sub's freeze at any time in a combo, it'd almost become like Ermac's lift in the corner, same thing with Sindel's scream.

These are just more MUGEN concepts, because MUGEN programmers have never bothered to figure out, or at least apply how to limit moves the way they are in UMK3, by recording other hits into memory. In UMK3, if you could do JP starter, 4 hit pop up, Scream, you could do 4 hit pop up again, which would result in 70% damage, even if the Scream was limited to once per combo, anywhere in the combo. I know your answer would be "Well we then reduce damage, or make the second pop up lock." but why bother doing that when you don't need to? Most moves are limited fine the way they are. There are a few exceptions which need to be dealt but they are obvious.

Some of the stuff I just don't understand.

I will say though, some of what you describe is how special moves are limited in Twisted Metal 2. There is a special move bar that limits usage of specials, that ALL the cars do. Freeze, Shield, Invisibility, reverse fire, land mines, Napalm, jump, etc, all require different amounts of your special move bar, but that's only for special moves and they are universal. For example, shields require just over 1/3 your bar, but if you time the usage right, you can do three in a row because the bar recharges while the shield is going, leaving you with no bar by the end, same thing with freeze.

I guess what it comes down to is, you want a special move bar, that has nothing to do with Run, and again, that's simply a bad idea.
 
Perhaps a Smart/Dumb Missile combo moving, similar to the Double Missile, but with less lifespan for the Smart Missile. This would cause forward lockdown and then the randomness of the Smart missile as well, but there would have to be some kind of special recovery for it.

I've also toyed with the idea of a manually detonated bomb for Cyrax. Could be really broken though.
That could be an idea, but I think it might just make single straight missiles a lot less useful, simply replacing them in most instances. It would also be adding a move technically, which I think you were trying to avoid. I can't know any of this for sure of course, that's something that would have to be tested to find out.

Oh man, manually detonated bombs for Cyrax would be INCREDIBLY good. Just thinking of applications in situations I've been in, I think it would probably end up being really broken. I think the corner modifications you listed already would help Cyrax a good deal though, since he has a great corner game. The only real change I think he might need is reduced lag on bombs so he's not so vulnerable for it. The throw modification helps him a good deal as well.

I snipped the reply to FrozenWorm, but I pretty much agree with it all, just letting it be known.
 

Shock

Administrator
Premium Supporter
Yeah I honestly don't even really like the idea of a Combo Missile, but I don't know what else to do for him, but there's gotta be other stuff.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Everything Shock said = truth

As for Sektor...just give him the ability to cancel any attack (sans uppercut) with a smart missile. It wouldn't give him any broken stuff because of the lag time it takes before smart missiles connect and how long it takes to recover from one. It would be interesting. You could give him an auto-combo that ends with a knockdown.