Official Rules For P1 and Stage Advantage

Discussion in '[MK9] General Discussion' started by G4S Claude VonStroke, Apr 17, 2012.

  1. Dizzy

    Dizzy False Information Police Officer
    Premium Supporter NetherRealm Studios

    If you win you can choose P1 or P2. If you choose P2 you get to select the stage.

    I am also undefeated in tournament play RPS. Yomiiiii
    Claude VonStroke likes this.
  2. GGA soonk

    GGA soonk ĜĞÅ §ººñ|<®©™
    Premium Supporter

    What's your record? 1/1? Lol
    Dizzy likes this.
  3. SwiftTomHanks

    SwiftTomHanks missiles are coming
    News Editor

    I refuse to change stages. We got Kratos stage at FV and played it out like real men.
    mine is broken likes this.
  4. Evil_Riu48

    Evil_Riu48 Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    after all this time of people winning as player 2 now they want to start complanning about been player 2 it is kind of funny
    Z-911-Z, NinjaGrinder and RapZiLLa54 like this.

    H2O FARMER Crazy 88 king

    Switching sides in tourney play is dumb anyway.The stream would have to switch names and like was previously mentioned the button checks.

    I say let the bracket seeding determine who gets p1/p2.Player on the top of the pairing is p1 player on bottom is p2.Stage rules stay the same as they are now.Thats my thoughts
    Z-911-Z, NinjaGrinder and Eazail like this.
  6. Eazail

    Eazail Noob

    This makes the most sense to me. And if there is any problems, coin toss it like at FV.
  7. SwiftTomHanks

    SwiftTomHanks missiles are coming
    News Editor

    IMO if players actually give a shit RPS or coin toss. Winner picks either stage or player 1. The loser gets to pick the other one. Stages can be changed if loser wants; player sides can not be changed for the whole set.
  8. Maxter

    Maxter Noob

    grrrrrr there is not advantage on player one mk9, advantage is mk2 where the female ninjas can anti air with high kick other females ninjas and other characters easier on the game with p2 while P1 couldnt, also uppercuts could be landed easiers with p2.
    this p1 advantage stuff just work with trades, thats is up to the frame and whatever hit becomes active first will hit . is impossible to have a 2 hist becoming active at the same precise frame unless if you are running a test and have some kind medium to press buttons at the same precise time.

    About the stage advantage, let players agree what stage suits their chars better, some players can't play on dark stages or the vivid colors bother him like myself, i cant play on the forge or dark stages, specially if i pick a dark character like johnny cage black suit =) if someone has kabal or smoke and wants to run all day is not fair that they pick the roof and extend the matches to the last second, they should just agree to pick a stage that is not so long or so short.

    let's not make this game look bad by flipping coins on matches, let people just sit there and pick their players or the ones running the tourney tells them where to seat so they can type their names on the correct side on stream matches.
    i know from now own people will start blaming their loses on this kind of things, lets not have this happen, you can see a lot of high level matches won by the player 2 by pro players and this has never been an issue.
    just my 2 cents.
  9. Tim Static

    Tim Static Adminerator

    MK9 is just Player 1 as the old MK's it was random. if it was random in MK9, this wouldnt be an issue, but of course its not like that. lol :(
  10. 9.95

    9.95 Noob

    Honestly, the P1 advantage will likely account for very few, if any, tournament losses.

    I'm not saying that it should be there, it's HORRIBLE that it's there, but lets look at the math.

    - Because of variable stage length, we cannot determine actual % of hurtbox to stage ratio. However, we can just start with if characters are either within or outside of striking distance. - 50% = 1/2

    - Next, the P1 advantage is based on another major factor:
    A. Moves must activate on the exact same FRAME. - Then remember you have 60 chances PER SECOND for it to happen = 60/1(60 fps) x 90/1(90 sec.) = 5400 frames. Players must execute them on the same frame 1/5400.

    Lets now do the actual math.

    1/2 x 1/5400 = 1/10800 = 0.000092592%


    Keep in mind, these are only the very basic variables, not including specials, hurtbox %, stage length, etc. This will make it even smaller of a percentage.
    Iustinus, Grolarbears, Maxter and 3 others like this.
  11. Z-911-Z

    Z-911-Z Bone and Metal

    T4L Z911
    I honestly never thought this was that gamebreaking, but I'd be more than happy to RPS at the start of every set for the hell of it. They don't call me the Rock Master for nothing.

    I'd easily take this over the input or meter bug any day.
  12. VIDA

    VIDA Focused Grace and Intensity

    Copy and pasted from another thread:

    The other night me, @Shady , and at @k-frog did a little run through of this. They went Cage p1 and Kitana p2, so that after a Cage f3 (o on block) both would press d1 at approximately the same time to attempt to initiate a TRUE trade (both d1s are 6 frames). Sometimes Cage's would hit, and sometimes Kitana's. The only time theyre actually ever seemed to be a true trade was when u could see Kitana's d1 animation come out, but get stuffed by Cage.

    Now we didnt make exact numbers/statistics, but these seemingly actual trades only happened 4-6 times out of maybe 30-40 tries. Sometimes even Kitana's d3 would hit before Cage's d1 ffs (Kitana's d3 is 7 frames). Point is, its EXTREMELY rare, esp in the heat of a match, that even the highest lvl players will hit their inputs simultaneously enough for any trade mechanic to happen. I havent read everything but it seems like trades only happen DOWN TO THE FRAME. If so, I think that fact and our little run through shows how infrequently actual trades do happen anyway.

    Again our testing wasnt super scientific. But the two above players both knew what they were doing. In our opinion, an input going through at the same time with in a 1/60th sec window, has a very low probability/frequency when its focused on and attempted, let alone for an actual competitve match.

    Just throwing this out there at least.
    Z-911-Z likes this.
  13. Zyphox

    Zyphox What is going on guys, Ya Boi Zyphox here.

    did you read a passage from the bible before you did as well? only then will god love you and declare you a real man.
  14. FrothyOmen

    Premium Supporter


    With all due respect, that is horribly misleading math. Let me break this down on a much more reasonable scale.

    The most obvious time that something like this is going to happen is during poke-out situations. Let me use the example of Smoke vs. Kenshi, both have a six frame D1. Kenshi has just blocked a 3d12 from Smoke, which is zero frames of advantage on block. From a spacing standpoint, assume both players' D1 are in range of striking. Assume that both players have an average margin of error being 4 frames (i'm feeling generous) in either direction of when 3d12's recovery ends and both players can press d1 and have an action occur.

    With these given conditions, we can deduce the following:

    Chance of D1 being in range: 100%
    Reasonable room for error on either player's side, in regards to timing D1: +4f/-4f + just-frame frame = range of 9 frames.
    Chance of Smoke just-framing his D1: 1/9
    Chance of Kenshi just-framing his D1: 1/9

    1(1/9)(1/9) = 1.23% chance both players just frame their D1. This means that Smoke will be winning the (possibly non-ideal) trade scenario .617% more times than he should because there is no 50/50 trading; P1 wins on all just frame trades.

    Now, let's tighten that range up a bit; 4 frames early AND 4 frames late is a bit slow for the absolute top players (where this really matters!)

    Given information:

    Chance of D1 being in range: 100%
    Reasonable room for error: +2f/-2f + just-frame frame= range of 5 frames.
    Chance of Smoke just-framing his D1: 1/5
    Chance of Kenshi just-framing his D1: 1/5

    1(1/5)(1/5) = 4% chance both players just frame their D1. This means that Smoke will be winning the (possibly non-ideal) trade scenario 2% more times than he should be because there is no 50/50 trading; P1 wins on all just frame trades.

    The numbers of course get scarier the closer and closer you get to both players just-framing.

    1 frame room for error + just frame frame = range of 3 frames.

    1(1/3)(1/3) = 11.1% chance of both players just frame their D1. This means that Smoke will be winning the overall (possibly non-ideal) trade scenario 5.56% more often than he should because there is no 50/50 trading; P1 wins on all just frame trades.

    Not trying to take a side on whether or not this is a huge issue or not; however I am simply trying to put out a more accurate representation of what actually could happen. If my logic is flawed, please call me on it :)
    Iustinus, Briyen, Maxter and 3 others like this.
  15. NRF CharlieMurphy

    NRF CharlieMurphy Kindergarten Meta

    Its not a matter of poking and counter poking. It is a matter of interrupting strings.
  16. Matix218

    Matix218 D4, D4, D4, D4

    Sooooo much math in this thread
    FrothyOmen and 9.95 like this.
  17. 9.95

    9.95 Noob

    This only accounts for 2 characters in a situational encounter. 31 viable characters in the game, and you will NEVER see an entire match consisting of poke/counter poke. Your math is good but only for that situation, so it's just as misleading, if not more. My math is based on ONE SINGLE BUTTON PRESS by both players throughout the course of a 90 second match. What that means is that there is a variable percentage during the course of a match, but is still very negligible.

    Regardless, a coin flip to ease overly worried players is the best way to handle it.
  18. 9.95

    9.95 Noob

    mine is broken likes this.
  19. FrothyOmen

    Premium Supporter

    Well, yeah, my post only applies to poke wars, but you don't get much more just frame than that. Any other situations where stuff like this happens is purely coincidental and your math is a bit more reasonable.

    However you can't deny how often poke-out situations occur. Especially with everyone's favorite character, Johnny Cage. f3 leaves both parties at zero and within poke distance of one another, mindgames aside.

    Here's a short list of moves that leave both players at zero on block and within poke distance; this is by no means a complete listing. Just what I've got off the top of my head:

    Smoke: 3d12, 214, b2, d4 (assuming performed at close range)
    JC: 1, 11, 13, 2, 21, f3, f32
    Cyrax: 123, 22
    Kano: 112, 212, f12, b112 (thanks z911 for these two guys)
    KL: 1, 11, 2, 21

    There's obviously a BUNCH more, but neutral situations where the poke game becomes huge happen very frequently, and player 1 has a big advantage in this department. If he knows that P2 cannot poke out in time or has slow pokes, who's to say that he can't use a d3 on his neutral crouching opponent and get big advantage off of it like some characters do? Who's to say P1 is going to read p2 not trying to poke at all and wating to block the inevitable d1 so he can punish P1 who is at ~13 frames disadvantage? It's more than just the math; it opens up a mindgame that should not exist to begin with. Every other fighting game either forces a trade where both players take damage on a just frame, or it could be how MK9 is SUPPOSED to be where it is actually random who wins. This mindgame is in player one's favor, like it or not.

    To get a bit more on-topic, soonk's point is uncontestable. You simply can't do a coin flip to determine player 1/stage choice! All player 1 has to say is "lol colorblind" and they get the default colorblind stage. A different approach must be offered to this issue IMO.
    Z-911-Z likes this.
  20. FrothyOmen

    Premium Supporter

    Oh god, you should NOT have said that. I'm really way too lazy to do more 3rd grade math and present data on this topic too lmao :(
    Tim Static likes this.
  21. This thread has been very informative. Thank you Phil and FrothyOmen.

    I think we should just let it go and play our game.
    If P1 abuses this facet of the game, you can always block and then counter-poke and be at advantage.
    VIDA and FrothyOmen like this.
  22. Maxter

    Maxter Noob

    Believe me one of the players will press the button before the other, not matter how many milliseconds earlier it is, doesn't matter if both are on zero advantage when players will try to poke each other.
    it is impossible to press buttons at the same precised time and still one of them will be more precised than the other we are talking here possibly less than 1 frame per second difference when a hit will become active, only with a fixed device it is possible to press buttons exactly at the same time. i don't want to go into statistics or any math formula to determine this, this is pretty basic common sense i've been trying this with the bros specially with pokes coming out of 0 advantage hits or combo strings and sometimes we say wtf why is second player always winning, maybe one of us is more frame precised i won't say who it is =)
    VIDA and Grolarbears like this.
  23. Hitoshura

    Hitoshura Leave my cross to atrophy.

    Smash bros?
  24. You forgot to incorporate chaos theory into your calculations and by chaos theory I mean NRS programming.
    SunnyD, Tim Static and Hitoshura like this.
  25. Hitoshura

    Hitoshura Leave my cross to atrophy.

    Same rule applies to sf4 or any other fighter yet ive seen sf4 matches where they trade a few times a round or when I used to watch GG matches on stream when I was younger I used to see clashing everywhere. Players are highly skilled enough to know when to press their buttons and it does happen more than once in a blue moon where they'll trade normals or w/e

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