Video New Patch Podcast - Is the game really better off?

[Eddy Wang]

@YOMI REO @General M2Dave can you guys put some time stamps if possible next time?

 

[21122]

Idk I agree with Dave

Crystalline gets mopped in the corner. DB2 is slow and flash parry is over-rated.

Just make ex-low shatter cost 2 bars? 1st hit absorbs armour and if you ex it again you get a launcher.

Or dont give it armour, instead make it startup much faster.

Or just reduce the launching height?? Give it armour but make it so you can only get a 12-20% combo out of it.

Give it armour only if tremor has flex activated like sub zero??

@General M2Dave

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I think it's way too early to tell if the patch has been good or bad for the game.

Gun to my head I'd probably predict it'll be better. Lots of silly 50/50s have been calmed down and as much as the removal of armoured launchers fucks Kenshi, in the greater scheme of things the game is better that they now cost 2 bars or have been removed for the most part.

The only downsides is that there are still a few "why not" moves and people have become so spoiled that they'll say an armoured move isn't good because it's not safe/can be baited.

Also, one thing that people will notice is that meter builds much quicker in this version of the game thanks to Kounter, and so safe armoured moves will be thrown out very frequently, which could become the biggest downside of the game.

 

[M2Dave]

@YOMI REO @General M2Dave can you guys put some time stamps if possible next time?

Thank you for the suggestion. I will talk to REO.

 

[Lokheit]

The tier formula is cool and useful to showcase who is lacking essential stuff, but I think there are "deeper layers", for example it's not the same having "safe armor" than "plus armor", it's not the same having "good zoning" than "beast mode zoning", etc... so maybe some characters could be exagerated because they have "just enough to qualify" in multiple departments while others that are excellent in half of them and can destroy opponents based on those strengths wouldn't have a higher punctuation.

Something that wasn't considered in the formula and I think will be huge in the current state of the game, is the character having good anti-airs. Being free to be jumped over can be a problem, some characters don't have good anti-airs and are still good because of the other good things they have, others suffer a lot (like Kenshi) so I think that should be a compponent of the formula.

There are also X-Factors not included in the formula, for example Unbreakable can full combo punish string gaps without the use of armor with his parry. Or the amount of time that a character can keep you in a block jail getting some crazy chip (I've seen some of the new Kitana block strings and it looks like old Tempest Lao building meter to use more than the initial 3 bars in the process, leading to chip damage equal to what you can get from some combos).

The same way P2W said he qualified Cryo higher than his formula result, there are multiple cases of characters that would be better (or worse) than the number of checks they have for the formula.

PS: How is Cryo getting an 8/10 on the formula?

His armor isn't safe and that's already 3 points he's missing there in the formula.

When P2W was talking about Tri-Borg, it was said that being able to duck his F43 made it punishable so Cryomancer grab shouldn't count as safe then because the tick throw can be ducked for full combo punish (most grabs can only be jumped for a punish, this is one of the rare cases where you can also duck).

He also doesn't have "zoning" (he has anti-zoning with the slide going under most projectiles and EX Iceball eating them, but his meterless projectile is too slow to consider it "zoning" IMO) and that's another point he's losing (and I think that's one of the 2 points P2W didn't count).

He has excellent and very underrated mobility (1 pt), very good mixups (2 pts), anti-zoning (1 pt) and a safe special to cancel his strings into (ice burst, 1 pt).

Footsies could be counted or not, he "sort of" have something to qualify (F4 and D4 checks) but characters with good footsies easily win that battle against him without even trying, so you could give it or not (I think you didn't give the point if he scored an 8).

That's 5/10 or 6/10 with the formula depending on if you count him as having footsies or not, unless you're considering he has safe armor because of the duckable throw he shouldn't be considered as high.

I know I'm a bit biased here but in the same formula conversation it was said that duckable attacks for full combo punish weren't considered safe so there is no way he's so high in the rankings. A lot of people are losing it after seeing Sonic but by that logic Gunslinger was S tier before the patch.

Also if even with just an 8 (if counting his armor as safe), you gave him "extra consideration" for how good his offense was, there are many characters excelling at other categories that should be given extra points as I said before. Maybe the formula could be 20 points instead of 10 and divide every category on "decent" and "great" for extra points?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I don't see Cryomancer as an 8 either. Sub-Zero's footsies just aren't that good. I'm sorry but they're not. He definitely doesn't get the point for safe armor or zoning....thats not even debatable, it's a fact.

He does however have absolutely retarded offense, insane mobility, great anti zoning, Sub-Zero can play the counter poke game now, and yeah, one he gets in it is extremely overwhelming. I agree with what @Tweedy said where Cryomancer isn't really that solid, but what he is good at is so dominant that it makes him better than a lot of more fundamentally "solid" characters. I think that also applies to Grandmaster which is still Sub's best variation.


Edit: which is why he is probably top 3-5 because he has two variations up there. He isn't as good as Ermac, but could be argued to be better than mostly everyone else.

 

[TheRealOnlyGoonie]

IS THE GAME REALLY BETTER OFF????? WHAT TYPE OF DUMB FUCKING QUESTION IS THIS MAN. YOU KNOW I THINK EVERYONE HAS HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR SHIT MAN, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, ITS TIME FOR YOU TO LEVEL UP.

 

[Youphemism]

MK9 didn't have ex armored reversals...

Lolwut

 

[dribirut]

Lol p2w would say reptile is top. He's always struggled against reptile and is only saying he's top because he lost to thtb. Reptile can literally do absolutely nothing against jump ins. Just jump on him and you win. Very easy

 

[Colest]

Also, one thing that people will notice is that meter builds much quicker in this version of the game thanks to Kounter

Where have you seen this at? I just spent 20 minutes searching this site for any official mention, or any mention at all, of this and you're the first person I've seen say this. Wasn't mentioned in kombat kast, to my knowledge, and in the umpteen patch breakdown videos I've watched no one has mentioned this. I also don't notice a difference in meter gain in game.

Do you have a source for this statement?

 

[Red Reaper]

Where have you seen this at? I just spent 20 minutes searching this site for any official mention, or any mention at all, of this and you're the first person I've seen say this. Wasn't mentioned in kombat kast, to my knowledge, and in the umpteen patch breakdown videos I've watched no one has mentioned this. I also don't notice a difference in meter gain in game.

Do you have a source for this statement?

That tortoise is probably just trying to sneak one past you...

PS: Let me know if it turns out to be true though.. lol...

 

[Killer Xinok]

So Dave still crying about loosing safe/armored launcher? Poor Dave.

Just gonna leave it here as it's not worth my time to try explaining how EX Low shatter is still viable tool in Crystalline's arsenal.



I would rather take opinion and arguments of some actual Crystalline mains like @Killer Xinok @YUZU_RZA or Madzin (on twitch mentioned how Tremor got amazing buffs) who are top level Tremors atm and do play in tournaments / has tournament experience and knows how to use the character and do agree he got buffs he needed. Not just the basic m2dave gameplan which is "F121, F121, EX Low shatter here and there" - repeat. No use of Punch cancel parry for armored wakeups/mixups/jailing or reversals - nothing.

So yeah, Tremor got buffs he needed: Faster poke, actual faster mid that jails after D1 confirm, faster and +on block F2, +6 on block F4, another, double armored, EXDB1 parry - On top of that all he still has HTB in the corner for 1 bar that breaks single hit armor and leads to 45-47% dmg combo and puts opponent into another hard knockdown lol. FLASH FUCKING PARRY.

Metallic became viable, Crystalline is still very strong due to additional mixup tool/armor and Aftershock's zoning (especially with IAQ) became godlike due to general universal stamina nerf for running opponents getting hit

But I guess Crystalline is "Abysmal" huh?
If I was ever to take someone's opinion on Tremor seriously - that certainly wouldn't be m2dave's.

EX db1d still has its uses.. I use it in the corner in order to make people stop blocking high the last hit of my f121 string, so they can't jump out of ex bf4.. so I'm using f12 Ex db1d in the corner, this makes them fear to block high on the last part of that, and that makes tremor's pressure reeeeally really strong in the corner.
And yes, I think this version of the game is better.. lose matches due to random launching armor wasn't that good. even though I did this sometimes lol

 

[Zatoichi]

Kano's Black Dragon Ball is a dead move for Cybernetic and Cutthroat. It's only useful as a combo extender for Commando. It wouldn't have killed NRS to give Black Dragon Ball projectile immunity so Kano still has an option against zoning heavy characters.