Strategy - Grandmaster New Clone Cancel Mindgame

[BoromiRofGeo]

how do i punish sub zero/ice clone with ermac, while being cornered ?

 

[MadeOfMetal]

im having a veryhard time with SZ after patch,example :1
i feel Mileena tele kick, scorpion tele...(lets not get into Inferno spam tactics), quan chi sky drop, all have the option to punish your defensive read into ice clone.

i used to pop IC when i knew it was safe and now, for example: Mileena TELE KICKS goes over IC and makes the clone Disappear weather im blocked or hit.

basically it just feels like a punish to use IC in certain situations.. to me it wasnt that big of a deal to get rid of clone pre patch... projectile into skydrop.

i hope they change him back.. cuz i love grandmaster, it reminds me of mk9 sub.

otherwise i like unbreakable for the zero chip damage turtle game

 

[MadeOfMetal]

The only purpose it serves is to make the match up against him easier on the opponent. The only thing the patch did was make it so people didn't have to study the match-up as hard as they had to. I still find it hilarious how people use complaints like "But you gotta use meter to get out of his pressure!" Isn't that the point of specializing in a variation? If you make his dirt free to get out of your pretty much handing them the game, then yet again that's just what they want.

exactly, in the hands of a skilled player. your opponent will feel like they are locked up. on the other hand, there is some situations where it become a little unbreakable..... cough: Kabal

 

[ZeZe]

Is there any other character on the roster that is being punished in a way for successful block?

 

[RVB]

exactly, in the hands of a skilled player. your opponent will feel like they are locked up. on the other hand, there is some situations where it become a little unbreakable..... cough: Kabal

Please tell me you're not comparing GM SZ to MK9 Kabal...
Anyways I still don't know if the klone cooldown is reset if you block an attack, can someone on PS4 test this out and see if you can instantly do a klone after blocking an attack while already having a klone out?

 

[Endeavor]

I personally think clone should have a cool down though I would hope in the next patch clone's cool down is buffed from 2 seconds to 1. If not I believe they should choose either the clone timer is not instantly reset when clone goes away, or the clone doesn't go away on block and universally buff AAs in the game.

 

[looktotheluna]

im having a veryhard time with SZ after patch,example :1
i feel Mileena tele kick, scorpion tele...(lets not get into Inferno spam tactics), quan chi sky drop, all have the option to punish your defensive read into ice clone.

i used to pop IC when i knew it was safe and now, for example: Mileena TELE KICKS goes over IC and makes the clone Disappear weather im blocked or hit.

basically it just feels like a punish to use IC in certain situations.. to me it wasnt that big of a deal to get rid of clone pre patch... projectile into skydrop.

i hope they change him back.. cuz i love grandmaster, it reminds me of mk9 sub.

otherwise i like unbreakable for the zero chip damage turtle game

I can live with the cool down timer before another clone is put out, yet the disappearing clone on block kinda sucks now (ruins the whole purpose of the clone. My game has to level up now and this nerf through me off balance a bit which I'm sure put off other SZ players a bit too.

Been toying with Cryo, which is okay and damage wise is better but it doesn't fit my play style.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Please tell me you're not comparing GM SZ to MK9 Kabal...
Anyways I still don't know if the klone cooldown is reset if you block an attack, can someone on PS4 test this out and see if you can instantly do a klone after blocking an attack while already having a klone out?

in no way am i comparing any mkx charachter to kabal cyrax or even jax/sonya off mk9.... was just saying we are wat the very start of the nerf/buff/balance waves, and who knows what to come... they have done thier best to balance. been removing resets and all, even removed continuous chip strings like kabals nomad dash cancel chip string. b ut at one point in mk9 they must have said: f it all and let it ride. cuz 110% combo resets and up, and even novice players could pull 70% resets with cyrax on MK9.

just fearing the end here.



i play reptile frequently now. and i have a relentless rushdown game, with that said it opens me up to certain characters to over ride all my normal moves and sometimes even specials.

mileena comes to mind. my question is: what strings with reptile will stop her roll on wakeup, or after i block a 3 hit string that she didnt cancel into a roll. and then did roll right after.

what combos with rep will stop it mid roll?

i understand i can just sit and block. i just want to counter it. (her normal roll) not her ex roll

 

[chemicalNova]

Why do people write in colorful text

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Why do people write in colorful text

it makes some people happy, and i like to uplift people

 

[Bidu]

@RVB Not only at MK9, man. The Ice Clone never disappeared on block on any version of Sub-Zero of any game. This is the fist time ever.

 

[RVB]

@RVB Not only at MK9, man. The Ice Clone never disappeared on block on any version of Sub-Zero of any game. This is the fist time ever.

Bound to happen eventually... the stupid is strong with NRS

 

[Endeavor]

So now that Clone goes away on block, that mean D'vorah just ran all over us.

 

[14K]

So now that Clone goes away on block, that mean D'vorah just ran all over us.

i replied to this exact question on the GM guide thread, i play sub zero and i am trying to main dvorah for a while as well, and yes she will pretty much not even care about the clone, if you lock her down in the corner she can pretty much D3 to keep you at bay or even force you to block and get rid of your clone, mid screen she has plenty of tools to deal with sub zero and she is a lot safer and more mix up heavy then him.. so yes DVorah is not a great match up

 

[ghostwriteous]

So the clone goes away when you press block or when you are hit while blocking?

 

[14K]

So the clone goes away when you press block or when you are hit while blocking?

when you block any attack the clone goes away.

 

[Mr_Swizzer]

Options are getting thin

Maybe pick up a new char after ESL

 

[RVB]

Honestly I wouldn't play GM vs dvorah anyway i'd pick unbreakable or cryo but yeah the way it sits now neutral game is gonna be very important when you play GM.
Also @Mr_Swizzer you're a cunt Kappa

 

[Mr_Swizzer]

I mean it's not all that bad though cos like tom said you just have to lower your hitbox.

There are alternatives, It's just the options are starting to thin

Shut up @RVB

 

[14K]

I gotta say as im no longer a serious tornament player ( even tho i have one in June for the Playstation Europeans ) this is very amusing to me, Sub Zero went from having pretty good control over all matchs, making their opponents actually have to think how they put up their offense, from having issues fighting pretty much most of the cast. i just had a fantastic set with a online friend that also mains Dvorah, and even tho i pretty much know exacly how to block everything Dvorah does, this is where i got blown up so hard that i could only laught "smh". So Dvorah cant be contained in the corner, like at all. heres why.
Once you put the clone up even with a solid set up thats giving you nice + frames she has 5 options that blow SZ up instantly.
1. she can do bug puddle, and catch you blocking or if you throw a move she will actually blow you up and get a free combo.
2. she can quick get up (if possible) and D3 you, having enouth range to, again, catch you blocking or trade with you (note this trade is awfull for SZ cause he will lose momentum and advantage)
3. she can do F2,2 if the clone is not complitly in her face and on block she can cancel and get enouth room to get out or mix you up in a way that you have to take it ( if you get hit by bug puddle after the cancel+mixup , she will be 1000000 on plus "exageration OFC" but enouth so, that she can do whatever she wants with you and SZ will most likely have to burn meter to get out)
4. again if the clone is not in her face she can J1 or Jf1 and her jumping punch moves have enouth range to make SZ block, meaning clone will go away and you will be in block stun from a jump in.
Tom a few posts back already explained this situation, and i found doing D3 was the best option, it Lowers your hit box enouth that she will get frozen if she does a jump in, it checks her in place if you finished your combo with enouth + frames so that you still have time with clone up to do something else, and it will get your opponent on block stun again. This D3 option will get blown up from her 5th option, i will get to that after. Like Tom said, this instead of being a place where SZ dominates his opponent, it becames a mind game for both characters....
5. She can spend meter and do the EX spikes or whatever they are called, cant remember sorry. this move for the most part is not safe but im pretty sure there aint a good way to punish hit due to the range clone puts you, and where the spikes hit on the very tip pushing you back....

From full screen SZ cant punish the bug puddle very well if it trades, so trading blows with her is a bad idea cause she will do dmg to you and you will freeze her, but most likely wont do dmg to her, you will just close the gap a bit...
Very but VERY poor matchup for him in my opinion.
I seriously encourage the more experienced players here to try this match up out against a good Dvorah, i would actually love to know what options we have to keep her in the corner.

 

[Take$$$]

1. she can do bug puddle, and catch you blocking or if you throw a move she will actually blow you up and get a free combo.

3. she can do F2,2 if the clone is not complitly in her face and on block she can cancel and get enouth room to get out or mix you up in a way that you have to take it ( if you get hit by bug puddle after the cancel+mixup , she will be 1000000 on plus "exageration OFC" but enouth so, that she can do whatever she wants with you and SZ will most likely have to burn meter to get out)

5. She can spend meter and do the EX spikes or whatever they are called, cant remember sorry. this move for the most part is not safe but im pretty sure there aint a good way to punish hit due to the range clone puts you, and where the spikes hit on the very tip pushing you back....

I hope I'm reading this right, because if I am this will help with these options at least. With the first one, her db1 has a huge startup so if she's letting you press buttons, keep doing it so she's too scared to throw it out. You can also hit her out of it if you hit her early enough. So to be safe(as in, in case you hit her too late and it comes out anyway) when you see it or expect it, hit her with something that ends in a hard knockdown or just sweep, since she likely won't be able to combo off her db1 after a hard knockdown. Throw iceballs to make her think twice about tossing it out full screen.

For the third one, if you mean she's running at you after you block f22 wc, you can punish it no matter how fast the run in canceled. If you don't punish there, 212 has a gap in it from 21 to 2. If you don't punish there, after she does 212 xx db1 you can punish that, or if you react too slowly you can still jump over her and the db1 so you get to go on the offensive.

For the 5th one, njp beats her ex db4 every time. You can also backdash/walk back and there's a good chance it'll only hit you once or twice for weak damage, so you get a whiff punish there.

I hope that helps. Let me know if I messed up and need to clarify anything.

 

[darthbrooks]

Very informative, @Take$$$. Two thumbs up!

 

[Take$$$]

Very informative, @Take$$$. Two thumbs up!

Thanks man! Happy to help when I can. I may not know sub, but I have no problem sharing my characters weaknesses to help people out. If you have any questions about her I'd be glad to answer them!

 

[14K]

I hope I'm reading this right, because if I am this will help with these options at least. With the first one, her db1 has a huge startup so if she's letting you press buttons, keep doing it so she's too scared to throw it out. You can also hit her out of it if you hit her early enough. So to be safe(as in, in case you hit her too late and it comes out anyway) when you see it or expect it, hit her with something that ends in a hard knockdown or just sweep, since she likely won't be able to combo off her db1 after a hard knockdown. Throw iceballs to make her think twice about tossing it out full screen.

For the third one, if you mean she's running at you after you block f22 wc, you can punish it no matter how fast the run in canceled. If you don't punish there, 212 has a gap in it from 21 to 2. If you don't punish there, after she does 212 xx db1 you can punish that, or if you react too slowly you can still jump over her and the db1 so you get to go on the offensive.

For the 5th one, njp beats her ex db4 every time. You can also backdash/walk back and there's a good chance it'll only hit you once or twice for weak damage, so you get a whiff punish there.

I hope that helps. Let me know if I messed up and need to clarify anything.

hmm, no, you pretty much nailed where you can "dissable" her, but heres the kicker, when she uses her db1, she can do it off of the 21 string, that leaves her very safe, safe enouth to let the db1 rip and catch you trying to get out, this will lead to a combo, if you actually manage to get this read you can armor out sure. What i mean to say is that its extremely fatigating to fight her, ill put it like this. Mostly cause a good Dvorah will try as best as she/he can to condition you into not wanting to press a lot of buttons in between cancels, mostly because Bug Canceling/Gun Canceling "Erron Black" Fireball Canceling "Scorpion" are all safe on block. so even if you poke out she will be safe.

The rest is very accurate sir, those are real options against her, the only one thats a true iffy decision is this. Like i said on the previous post its quite problematic to deal with her full screen with Iceballs because lets say you both are tossing the projectile game right, both fireballs ( Iceball and Bug Puddle) have decent start up, so both of you will trade. Heres why this is a bad option, she will get frozen but will take no dmg, you will take dmg from the bugs and be lifted just long enouth that if you start running just a few frames to late you will not get to her in time. I mean i will leave it up to how fast anyone can be getting to her, specially full screen. but doesnt seem like a good option considering you just got hit with some dmg, and the only thing you can do is close the gap a bit...

EDIT: Sorry just to add ont his. on the offchance and @Take$$$ is probably aware of this since he is a good player, on the offchance that she tosses a df1 and it hits you, she can db1 run and combo you for something like 30% meterless. this full screen

 

[Take$$$]

hmm, no, you pretty much nailed where you can "dissable" her, but heres the kicker, when she uses her db1, she can do it off of the 21 string, that leaves her very safe, safe enouth to let the db1 rip and catch you trying to get out, this will lead to a combo, if you actually manage to get this read you can armor out sure. What i mean to say is that its extremely fatigating to fight her, ill put it like this. Mostly cause a good Dvorah will try as best as she/he can to condition you into not wanting to press a lot of buttons in between cancels, mostly because Bug Canceling/Gun Canceling "Erron Black" Fireball Canceling "Scorpion" are all safe on block. so even if you poke out she will be safe.

The rest is very accurate sir, those are real options against her, the only one thats a true iffy decision is this. Like i said on the previous post its quite problematic to deal with her full screen with Iceballs because lets say you both are tossing the projectile game right, both fireballs ( Iceball and Bug Puddle) have decent start up, so both of you will trade. Heres why this is a bad option, she will get frozen but will take no dmg, you will take dmg from the bugs and be lifted just long enouth that if you start running just a few frames to late you will not get to her in time. I mean i will leave it up to how fast anyone can be getting to her, specially full screen. but doesnt seem like a good option considering you just got hit with some dmg, and the only thing you can do is close the gap a bit...

Yeah I get that she's probably one of the most frustrating characters to fight, especially as nerfed gm sub... must be brutal.

As for the iceball vs db1, yeah thats true, but if you manage to toss it out at the right time you can(barely) reach her before she's unfrozen if my memory is correct. It may not be the consistent thing, but it does potentially give you an option to start your offense, so it might be a nice option to always have on your mind. If it manages to work once, she will definitely think before she tries to throw out another one.

You do want to make sure you don't get hit by the db1 full screen without an iceball out though, because she can get 29%+ off that full screen. She can actually get it even if she eats a projectile from most characters, but subs iceball is one of the exceptions to that and actually is capable of the reverse here.

For the f22 wc 212 string, 21 is neutral on block if they stop there, but if you see her cancel to db1 from 21 you have enough time to still jump over it and start pressuring her, or even backdash it if you want to just chill.

As for the bug cancels themselves, her f22, b1, 112, and f4 are only safe on block if she does not run and press a button. You can punish all of those cancels on block if she runs at you and tries to press something. Throwing out a fast *crouching poke is safe too even if you whiff(edit2: assuming it's not like -14 or something lol), edit3: armor is also an option here. The only string that is safe on block and allows her to run and press a button is f112 wc because it jails, but thats her infamous 50/50 block string everyone now knows about and hates lol.

Also, remember she has an awful wakeup game and try to abuse that as much as possible. You can beat her only armor move with an njp, and if you play right she just has to block on wakeup and hope she gets an opportunity before she gets hit. This is definitely a rough match up for gm sub, but I think its still very winnable for you guys.

Edit: One thing to always be wary of is she has a 7 frame starter that goes into a 36% combo so its easy to punish with up close, but it is a high starter with the first hit being short range so its duckable, and even avoidable standing when played right.