What's new

My personal Kabal Matchup Chart (Mean Streak)

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
I mostly agree with your list. I think we've played the game long enough where we can actually discuss these things now, whether it be playing MUs or observing them too. The only things I'd probably disagree with I list here-



I think all of these are winning MUs (lemme know if you want me to explain one in detail). Raiden/Frost/D'Vorah I'd put at advantage too. Not enough Kollector or Shao Kahn exp to really comment on that though. Sub-Zero being the only one that I think probably is 5-5. From Mean Streak's perspective, I wouldn't be too sure about Clean Cut. The rest of your chart I'd say is pretty dead on the money.
could you explain why you think these are winning ones (especially baraka,jax,raiden and frost)? I agree on kitana being 6-4
I've listed sub as a 5-5 because ice ball shuts down mean streaks zoning you really can't trade despite buzzsaw being so plus on hit. in the neutral kabal beats him but don't forget sub has a 6f jab which makes some cancel shenanigans harder to execute. imo sub does well against kabal but so does kabal against sub. clean cut idk man I don't play that variation but I could imagine diagonal air buzzsaw is better in that matchup than the horizontal one.

6 4 or 7 3. My heart tells me 7 3. While maybe not that now, I think with time Kabal's will dominate this matchup. I honestly don't know. It's one of the two. It's not as bad as centrion and shang though.
gonna add the 6-4 to the chart then. 7-3 sounds pretty harsh but maybe it actually is that bad.
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
could you explain why you think these are winning ones (especially baraka,jax,raiden and frost)? I agree on kitana being 6-4
I've listed sub as a 5-5 because ice ball shuts down mean streaks zoning you really can't trade despite buzzsaw being so plus on hit. in the neutral kabal beats him but don't forget sub has a 6f jab which makes some cancel shenanigans harder to execute. imo sub does well against kabal but so does kabal against sub. clean cut idk man I don't play that variation but I could imagine diagonal air buzzsaw is better in that matchup than the horizontal one.


gonna add the 6-4 to the chart then. 7-3 sounds pretty harsh but maybe it actually is that bad.
I think "7 3" carries an undeserved stigma. It means in a first to 10, you win 7 i win 3. And that's how a really challenging matchup is. People interpret it to mean "I can't win!"
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
could you explain why you think these are winning ones (especially baraka,jax,raiden and frost)? I agree on kitana being 6-4
I've listed sub as a 5-5 because ice ball shuts down mean streaks zoning you really can't trade despite buzzsaw being so plus on hit. in the neutral kabal beats him but don't forget sub has a 6f jab which makes some cancel shenanigans harder to execute. imo sub does well against kabal but so does kabal against sub. clean cut idk man I don't play that variation but I could imagine diagonal air buzzsaw is better in that matchup than the horizontal one.
Yea agree on Sub, it's the one I felt the most about to say "should probably leave this one out". I think I play the MU good in general from too much exp but it could be 5-5 pretty easily.

Baraka- Feels like Kabal can limit his options well in this MU. The only con being that you can't use the cancels as freely because you have to be mindful of needing breaker, being that no one wants to be down on the life lead and eat 50% free midscreen from him. But that feels like it's where his advantages end. If they're at range he can't really zone Kabal, up close I feel Kabal is one of the only characters who can out-Baraka Baraka in the fundamental poke/footsie game. He can't try to combo start his way out of cancel pressure like a Cassie doing F41 confirm, so he's delegated to trying to poke out, or risk a full combo punish. One of his strengths of very strong AA gets negated by Kabal's stronger JIP2 and air toss. One of his other strengths with F4 and F2 get beat out by Kabal's B1 and F2. This MU is one of the only one's that if you bait Baraka's knee you get Hook Swirl for near 50% KB damage, making it much more dangerous for him to just "throw out" there. Just seems like a lot of his better tools are oppressed by Kabal's toolset. This is exclusively Mean Streak vs Marauder.

Jax- Out of everyone, this is probably the MU I've played the most with him. This one all boils down to the pressure and stagger game of Jax. If you can read it well enough and always take your turn back, there's really nowhere Jax is taking this MU. The 9F knee is excellent for blowing up overplaying on block Jax users. Kabal can play this outside of Jax's hit range, and force him to over-commit, leading to more punishes than normal. I'm not sure why, maybe Jax has bad jumps, but I find it incredibly easy to AA-combo Jax with Kabal compared to most characters too. Another thing, I can be more liberal with my cancels in this MU because I don't have to worry about needing breaker at all, which makes the toolset for Kabal at it's peak. If I'm away from his point blank range, I have hit priority advantages, and the knee obstructs his close range with a bigger punish than he's accustomed too. Just gotta avoid him getting rolling mostly, but that's with any MU against him.

Raiden- This one is a bit tricky too. Could be 5-5. Not confident enough to double down, but what I find most effective is hard pressure. This MU always seems played up close due to Raiden's meh zoning and the users not using escape teleport too often. Raiden's buttons just come out slower. His advancing normals get full on crushed by hook normals, and he has to give up his turn way too often on block, or risk a full combo punish to throw you off guard. The flip side of it is when he plays riskier it can make it a bit harder to read/predict, and more difficult to defend as he yomi's his way into more turns than his frames lead on.

Frost- I've played this one a lot too. Yea it's fun to say "oh noes Frost sucks", but in this MU she does. The main issue I think is her gaps. They're just too big, too easy to full combo punish. It's actually better to use the cancels less in this MU to have the FLB on hand, because you'll be getting them out easy. Up close it's true that she's too slow, but especially true in this MU. A funny thing is, if you do something basic like F224, she has to risk a high to punish you if you if you do two F22's in a row lol. She can only low poke, or high, and you can obviously blow this up. Once that happens they end up either holding it which leads to an infinite amount of resources, or just doing a D1. It shouldn't be like that, but against Frost it is. Her zoning actually is a bit annoying in this MU though, but that's the only thing keeping this away from a full on slaughter.

D'Vorah- Mostly agree with Mayo, can't really add on. MU isn't tough. Even before learning the MU it didn't feel hard.
 
Am I the only Geras that finds Kabal hard? I even play Kabal, so it's not exactly a lack of character knowledge imo. Curious what the actual Kabal mains feel about the match. For me it boils down to: Geras wants to be in your face to start his shenanigans, and Kabal bullies well from mid range (certainly bullies Geras well [b1, f2 to a lesser extent]). He also happens to be one of the aerial projectile characters, so random sandtraps in neutral are difficult to make work since he's just barely leaving the air at the point of the saw connecting on your character. Both lame play and bullying seem to work well enough.

Any specific thoughts on this one?
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Am I the only Geras that finds Kabal hard? I even play Kabal, so it's not exactly a lack of character knowledge imo. Curious what the actual Kabal mains feel about the match. For me it boils down to: Geras wants to be in your face to start his shenanigans, and Kabal bullies well from mid range (certainly bullies Geras well [b1, f2 to a lesser extent]). He also happens to be one of the aerial projectile characters, so random sandtraps in neutral are difficult to make work since he's just barely leaving the air at the point of the saw connecting on your character. Both lame play and bullying seem to work well enough.

Any specific thoughts on this one?
I dont’ think you can react to sand trap so I suppose Kabal can only do IA straight saw on read, which probably means you can at least try to trade with him with sand trap as he comes back down? I haven’t fought Geras a Kabal before though. So I can’t comment beyond this
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
IMO, Kabal vs Jade is 5-5, leaning towards Jade if anyone has an advantage.

There's checks everywhere for both characters, and it generally is up to the player skill. The reason I say Jade is the likely candidate for advantage in the MU is glow. Yes, on a hard read, you can snipe out glow. Realistically, it's not always happening, and when she gets it up, that's a hefty amount of control for Jade.
 

scarsunseen

RIP TYM 6/11/2021
I’ve played the Jade vs Kabal mu with @Hellbringer quite a bit. Right now I’d put it at 6/4 in her favor. If Kabal can ever get in then he can start his nonsense, but she can make it very difficult for him to do so. He has to rely pretty heavily on yolo dash. The only big downside is that her recovery is so bad, she’s going to eat his bullshit FB every single match.

I’ve also played against a ton of online rando Kabals with her and I don’t believe I’ve lost a match yet.
I agree. I think it's 6-4 in Jade's favor. I switch to Frost-byte Frost for that MU and it makes my life soooo much easier.
 

Espio

Kokomo
I agree. I think it's 6-4 in Jade's favor. I switch to Frost-byte Frost for that MU and it makes my life soooo much easier.
Well of course it's easier since Frost downright beats Jade 6-4 as opposed to an even mu. Frost just does really basic stuff and it is super effective in the match up. Jade does not do well when she has to chase characters but that doesn't mean the mu is losing for Kabal. He is too strong at many ranges to lose.
 
Any additional insight on Sonya and erron black?

I haven't played any legit Sonya so I think I'm just beating bad ones. D4 seems to be a bane for her in the mu. Matches are still closish because she is going to cash out if you do get caught without breakaway. I guess I've been waiting out the amp shots then you can j2 the regular ones.

Erron black I have trouble so far because your zoning has zero effectiveness and his mid range is scary. Plus poison pressure.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
Any additional insight on Sonya and erron black?

I haven't played any legit Sonya so I think I'm just beating bad ones. D4 seems to be a bane for her in the mu. Matches are still closish because she is going to cash out if you do get caught without breakaway. I guess I've been waiting out the amp shots then you can j2 the regular ones.

Erron black I have trouble so far because your zoning has zero effectiveness and his mid range is scary. Plus poison pressure.
waiting out the amp shots is definitely the way to go in this mu, you won't win the zoning match against her anyway. d4 helps for sure, the big nono in this mu is just your dependence on defensive meter. it's the same in the baraka mu but sonya has better zoning an an easier time to open you up so you'll more likely need to breakaway at some point which just negates the point of playing this variation since ia buzzsaw doesn't do shit against her. it's not awful but it's in her favor for sure.

besides all the crap erron can do against anyone his d4 is my bane of existence it just shuts down any attempt at trying to win the neutral with b1. it also doesn't help how unsafe kabals wakeup options are when you have to the something after poison setups.
Yea agree on Sub, it's the one I felt the most about to say "should probably leave this one out". I think I play the MU good in general from too much exp but it could be 5-5 pretty easily.

Baraka- Feels like Kabal can limit his options well in this MU. The only con being that you can't use the cancels as freely because you have to be mindful of needing breaker, being that no one wants to be down on the life lead and eat 50% free midscreen from him. But that feels like it's where his advantages end. If they're at range he can't really zone Kabal, up close I feel Kabal is one of the only characters who can out-Baraka Baraka in the fundamental poke/footsie game. He can't try to combo start his way out of cancel pressure like a Cassie doing F41 confirm, so he's delegated to trying to poke out, or risk a full combo punish. One of his strengths of very strong AA gets negated by Kabal's stronger JIP2 and air toss. One of his other strengths with F4 and F2 get beat out by Kabal's B1 and F2. This MU is one of the only one's that if you bait Baraka's knee you get Hook Swirl for near 50% KB damage, making it much more dangerous for him to just "throw out" there. Just seems like a lot of his better tools are oppressed by Kabal's toolset. This is exclusively Mean Streak vs Marauder.

Jax- Out of everyone, this is probably the MU I've played the most with him. This one all boils down to the pressure and stagger game of Jax. If you can read it well enough and always take your turn back, there's really nowhere Jax is taking this MU. The 9F knee is excellent for blowing up overplaying on block Jax users. Kabal can play this outside of Jax's hit range, and force him to over-commit, leading to more punishes than normal. I'm not sure why, maybe Jax has bad jumps, but I find it incredibly easy to AA-combo Jax with Kabal compared to most characters too. Another thing, I can be more liberal with my cancels in this MU because I don't have to worry about needing breaker at all, which makes the toolset for Kabal at it's peak. If I'm away from his point blank range, I have hit priority advantages, and the knee obstructs his close range with a bigger punish than he's accustomed too. Just gotta avoid him getting rolling mostly, but that's with any MU against him.

Raiden- This one is a bit tricky too. Could be 5-5. Not confident enough to double down, but what I find most effective is hard pressure. This MU always seems played up close due to Raiden's meh zoning and the users not using escape teleport too often. Raiden's buttons just come out slower. His advancing normals get full on crushed by hook normals, and he has to give up his turn way too often on block, or risk a full combo punish to throw you off guard. The flip side of it is when he plays riskier it can make it a bit harder to read/predict, and more difficult to defend as he yomi's his way into more turns than his frames lead on.

Frost- I've played this one a lot too. Yea it's fun to say "oh noes Frost sucks", but in this MU she does. The main issue I think is her gaps. They're just too big, too easy to full combo punish. It's actually better to use the cancels less in this MU to have the FLB on hand, because you'll be getting them out easy. Up close it's true that she's too slow, but especially true in this MU. A funny thing is, if you do something basic like F224, she has to risk a high to punish you if you if you do two F22's in a row lol. She can only low poke, or high, and you can obviously blow this up. Once that happens they end up either holding it which leads to an infinite amount of resources, or just doing a D1. It shouldn't be like that, but against Frost it is. Her zoning actually is a bit annoying in this MU though, but that's the only thing keeping this away from a full on slaughter.

D'Vorah- Mostly agree with Mayo, can't really add on. MU isn't tough. Even before learning the MU it didn't feel hard.
thanks, I'll add frost and jax to the list. I'm still not entirely sold on baraka being a 6-4 but I can see your points, maybe there are some baraka mains who may share their thoughts on this?
raiden I still don't know. I really never struggled in a long set against him (the one or two long sets I played against one lol) but I don't think I won because of the matchup knowledge because I literally have none. I'll leave him at 5-5 but I could see it being a 6-4 for kabal but I'd need more information.
 
Any advice on the Kung Lao matchup? I'm not sure how to approach it, I feel like if I try and zone he just teleports me to death, and if I try and walk in I just get blown up by instant air dive kicks. I understand I shouldn't be losing to either of these, but just wondering how others approach the matchup, ie zone him out, rush him down, etc.

Thanks!
 
E

Eldriken

Guest
Any advice on the Kung Lao matchup? I'm not sure how to approach it, I feel like if I try and zone he just teleports me to death, and if I try and walk in I just get blown up by instant air dive kicks. I understand I shouldn't be losing to either of these, but just wondering how others approach the matchup, ie zone him out, rush him down, etc.

Thanks!
React to teleport with d1 into 23~bf3.

If he amplified it, walk back and once he pops up, punish whatever he did with b12~bf3. I have @Braindead to thank for the walk back tip after amplified teleport.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
Any advice on the Kung Lao matchup? I'm not sure how to approach it, I feel like if I try and zone he just teleports me to death, and if I try and walk in I just get blown up by instant air dive kicks. I understand I shouldn't be losing to either of these, but just wondering how others approach the matchup, ie zone him out, rush him down, etc.

Thanks!
Pretty much what @Eldriken said. If you do it right you can zone him out most of the match. Throwing out air buzzsaws can garantuee you a combo when lao tries to jump the normal buzzsaw (and they always try when they‘re in midscreen range). If lao doesn‘t go for z-hat shenanigans, which you can blow up on reaction, he almost always has to give it his turn up close. Though the Laos who play pretty chaotic or when you’re not too familiar with the mu can overrun you, probably happened to everyone of use so don‘t feel discouraged
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
@Under_The_Mayo do you think anything has changed in the dvorah Mu now that her second variation seems to be way more viable?
I dont currently play that variation but certainly it fares better than it used to. I still dont like the variation due to its limited strings and setups.

As for Buzzed, it's also really hard to say. She has better tools now for playing the game, but they nerfed her setups really hard and shes much more punishable now and her corner resets have completely destabilized.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
How do you guys feel against nightwolf so far?

I played quite a few and even unoptimized after day 1 this character is extremely annoying.
The big issue for me is how good his fucking zoning and neutral is. Not only is his projectile faster, does more damage and hits mid on mb, nightwolf can easily reflect buzzsaw on reaction and his backdash goes beyond the fucking moon, making it extremely hard to even come close to him. His buttons also feel super fast and good reaching when you get close to him.

It‘s probably my lack of knowledge about him but if I don‘t find a good answer to his zoning/ anti-zoning I don‘t see this matchup winning or even for mean streak.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
updated the chart

changes:

- moved shao kahn from "???" to "5-5"
- labbed this mu a bit more know and I think it's reasonable. shao kahn can definitely keep up in the neutral with kabal, having a great sweep and advancing high as well as a 10f mid. fullscreen he can actually outzone kabal with his spear due to his hitadvantage from it.
- moved dvorah from "7-3" to "5-5"
- now this mu changes a lot with dvorah's second variation now being viable. her f1 is now 12f and has great range and can keep up with kabals b1.
-moved kabal (clean cut) from to "6-4"
- this should be an obvious one
- moved skarlet from "5-5" to "4-6"
- now this is a mu I played A LOT more now and I feel comfortable to say that it's definitely not a 5-5. skarlet can outzone kabal which is no surprise since she's just a great zoner overall. what really stinks in this mu is that her neutral is just flat out better than kabals. up close she struggled but now that her pokes aren't useless anymore it really doesn't help kabal in that mu. I regularely play with 3 extremely good skarlet mains who all have this as a 4-6.
- liu moved from "5-5" to "4.5-5.5"
- this only applies to luohan quan due to his low fireball and parry. I think his second variation is still 5-5

shang was a "4-6" before imo but now I don't have a clue how this mu is after the patch. haven't seen one shang since then.
nightwolf I'm also not sure, though I see him as a loosing matchup due to his extremely good fullscreen presence and ability to make kabal come to him while still having good advancing buttons.
 

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
updated the chart

changes:

  • moved shao kahn from "???" to "5-5"
  • labbed this mu a bit more know and I think it's reasonable. shao kahn can definitely keep up in the neutral with kabal, having a great sweep and advancing high as well as a 10f mid. fullscreen he can actually outzone kabal with his spear due to his hitadvantage from it.
  • moved dvorah from "7-3" to "5-5"
  • now this mu changes a lot with dvorah's second variation now being viable. her f1 is now 12f and has great range and can keep up with kabals b1.
-moved kabal (clean cut) from to "6-4"
  • this should be an obvious one
  • moved skarlet from "5-5" to "4-6"
  • now this is a mu I played A LOT more now and I feel comfortable to say that it's definitely not a 5-5. skarlet can outzone kabal which is no surprise since she's just a great zoner overall. what really stinks in this mu is that her neutral is just flat out better than kabals. up close she struggled but now that her pokes aren't useless anymore it really doesn't help kabal in that mu. I regularely play with 3 extremely good skarlet mains who all have this as a 4-6.
  • liu moved from "5-5" to "4.5-5.5"
  • this only applies to luohan quan due to his low fireball and parry. I think his second variation is still 5-5
shang was a "4-6" before imo but now I don't have a clue how this mu is after the patch. haven't seen one shang since then.
nightwolf I'm also not sure, though I see him as a loosing matchup due to his extremely good fullscreen presence and ability to make kabal come to him while still having good advancing buttons.
Just a note on the shao mu, he can’t outzone kabal. Kabal has a knockdown on his projectiles too so a trade doesn’t mean much. Additionally, spear is punishable on reaction from midscreen or so by nomad dash. Its not difficult either.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
Just a note on the shao mu, he can’t outzone kabal. Kabal has a knockdown on his projectiles too so a trade doesn’t mean much. Additionally, spear is punishable on reaction from midscreen or so by nomad dash. Its not difficult either.
That‘s true but if I remember correctly from my matches if spear and buzzsaw trade kabal has to hold the next spear to not loose momentum. I could be wrong but I never felt like you can really zone out Shao as much as others.
And yeah you‘re right I was talking about fullscreen, should have added that to the post.
 

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
That‘s true but if I remember correctly from my matches if spear and buzzsaw trade kabal has to hold the next spear to not loose momentum. I could be wrong but I never felt like you can really zone out Shao as much as others.
And yeah you‘re right I was talking about fullscreen, should have added that to the post.
I’m not sure too much on how it would work with mean streak, but would you be able to jump over spear and do air saw and punish? I know you can with diagonal saw. But anyway yeah because you can get into midscreen range pretty easily and then spear is very risky for him to throw
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
I’m not sure too much on how it would work with mean streak, but would you be able to jump over spear and do air saw and punish? I know you can with diagonal saw. But anyway yeah because you can get into midscreen range pretty easily and then spear is very risky for him to throw
Yes Clean cut definitely can do that with diagonal air saw that’s true but mean streak has to to do them too low to hit standing opponents where he gets hit out of the air by most projectiles so you‘re better off just doing the grounded one. They‘re both amazing air projectiles but for different reasons