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MK11 Does Not Allow For Consistent Performance

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Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Copying and pasting a Twitlonger. Final thoughts on the game and what's wrong with it, just gonna post tech/match videos if I ever get around to doing that shit after this.

So before everyone jumps down my throat, no, the game is not random. The average bum isn't beating Sonic. WHAT MK11 DOES DO HOWEVER, is it makes it harder for Sonic to beat a bum.
This game has an illusion of balance and an illusion of elevated competition because of how it's designed, and it's important we start a conversation about this.

MK11 is not built to allow you to win by being the better player... not essentially. Being the better player meaning

1: You have more MU knowledge than the other guy

2: You're more optimized than the other guy

3: You have more fundamental game knowledge than the other guy (character specialization and things like block punishment, gaps etc)

4: Your footsies and neutral play are better

MK11's design does everything in it's power to actively pad against these things. How does it do so? Let's examine. I think breakaway is a good place to start.

Part One: Breakaway Punishes You For Your Fundamentals

Breakaway is the easiest one to talk about and it has the highest degree of variability. Let's compare and contrast MKX and Inj2 to this scenario.

You block or whiff punish your opponent, your opponent either

1: Breaks and resets neutral in MKX, or doesn't and eats the damage. Two possibilities with 100% consistent outcomes.

2:Tries to air escape and gets re-combo'd/read and resetted, or doesn't and eats full damage. Two possibilities with 100% consistent outcomes with some variance, but the variance the player who fucked up can add into the situation is VERY high risk and can be counterplayed.

What happens in MK11?

1a: You whiff or block punish, make the read whether they break or not by choosing to commit to your launcher or not. You might completely waste a punish opportunity because you read a breakaway

1b: When did they breakaway? Now you're dealing with an inconsistent (variable) meaty situation with get up, short delay and long delay into wakeup buttons

1c: They didn't breakaway at all AND you didn't spend the bar so now you're holding the plethora of WU options and wasted a punish opportunity

1d: They broke away at a predictable time but now you have to open them up again

1e: Do they have fatal blow? Now you're dealing with a breakaway timing mixup AND an immediate get up/short delay/long delay into potential wakeup fatal blow scenario

1f: You SURRENDER THE OKI and give them back neutral

Am I the only one who sees that, so wait, my reward for my block punishment and my footsies is that I GET TO BE PUT INTO A FUCKING 6 LAYER GUESS?

In MKX and Injustice 2, there's none of this. They either break or not in MKX and your situation afterward is consistent and you're guessing armor or not. In Injustice 2 they air escape, or not, which was mostly option selectable or readable into a big reset but your situation 90% of the time was also consistent afterward and all you had to do was read wakeup or not mostly.

The thing is, in MKX and Injustice 2, the variance only starts AFTER you bag your punish reward. There is barely any punish reward by contrast in MK11. You're putting yourself into a mixup to punish people for being wrong. This is fucked up.

Part Two: Footsies require consistency, which the games neutral does not have, therefore there are no footsies.

How are the footsies inconsistent in MK11?

1: Anti airs are unreliable, even the broke ones, because they can still be beaten by imperceptible timing mixups on your jump in ON TOP OF which jump in you used.

2: Jumps are unreactable, this throws a wrench in the idea of preserving or taking ground

3: Button ranges are variable because of dash canceling. People at the highest level, even by accident, sometimes add range to their buttons when they don't mean to but it just works. This means there is no "spot" for your character to control, which is a literal defining aspect of footsies.

4: Fuck neutral moves that require complete hard reads to beat (Jacqui dash punch) or just don't have any risk to them if not used point blank (Geras sandtrap, Cet Geyser). These moves are often not even made more risky except at point blank by gaining ground against those characters.

5: The breakaway section loops into this because the one time you do make a footsie read and it works you're putting yourself in a 6 layer mixup.

Part 3: The game is all mix and setplay, or zoning with no counterplay.

1: Unreactable staggers
2: String or d1 into yolo launching special
3: Throws are 50/50's with potential explosiveness due to KB's
4: Auto shimmies
5: Mids to beat attempting to OS throws and auto shimmies
6: Flawless blocks when it's your turn
7: Point blank jump on block for either player
8: Fatal blow
9: Variable pushback based on stand or duck block + variable blockstun on tons of moves
10: Zoning tools with literally no counterplay that become no riskier depending on how close you are with pushback or plus frames

More variables in the close range game especially than MKX or Inj2.

Oh yeah, and the fatal blow minigame to boot.

MK11 lacks the ability to CONTROL people with MU knowledge and consistent punishment/neutral winning results. It's honestly the games biggest flaw, and it leaves people with the incorrect belief that the game is balanced, or that the level of competition is higher. This definitely means it's possible for Sonic, Ninja, Rewind etc to lose to a player worse than them, or possible for them to beat a player they are worse than. Even at the highest level. It's abysmal.

Let me address the bad faith TYM arguments before they come out the gate

1: No, other FG's are not this variable
2: No, most fighting games, are not like this game in it's philosophy on how it handles these things
3: No, the answer is not to react/adapt/learn the MU/lab/(EDIT: LOL MOPPED BY THE FILTER!). This game actively works against all of these things as I just laid out here.
4: No, not every game is hard read based or even most. MK11 is the current gen FG with the LEAST amount of ways to reduce your guesses on the market right now.

Anyways, this is my last rant on what's wrong with the game. If you disagree, you are wrong. You can like the game, but as a competitive Esport the game is not "fine". I won't respond to any arguments that try to seriously argue this.

This post also has endorsement from Buffalo who can't stand the game either lol
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
MK11 is not built to allow you to win by being the better player... not essentially.
Dude. It's time to put your keyboard down. It's been a good run, but it's time to pick your hands up from the keyboard, stand up, and slowly back away from the computer.

Do not press the "New thread" button. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. Dear god.

If you disagree, you are wrong.
Holy moly.. There are no words for this.
 
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thlityoursloat

Scarlet peeing
I know we have our differences, dude, but I agree with pretty much everything.
I'm glad more people are opening up about the ridiculous amount of high reward fuck neutral shit, it has bothered me for a LONG time and it always makes me wonder how people can call this game 'neutral' based when there's SO MUCH SHIT that just forces you to sit there and not.. play neutral.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Beg the question much?



What about arguments that try to non-seriously argue this?
I just want actual productive conversation that doesn't amount to "no you're wrong and heres my factually/data incorrect bad faith argument why" which ironically I have to do by doing the exact same thing lol. There's definitely going to be "the game is 100% perfect and fine" types in here.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
I mean, seriously, "it's important we have a conversation about this, but also I'm not going to respond to anyone who disagrees with me because they're wrong"?

That's not a conversation, that's a rant.
If people have DIFFERENT IDEAS about how to address these issues or what they think is wrong with the game that's fine.
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Royal Contributor
Dude. It's time to put your keyboard down. It's been a good run, but it's time to pick your hands up from the keyboard, stand up, and slowly back away from the computer.

Do not press the "New thread" button. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. Dear god.


Holy moly.. @Braindead come and hold me back. @Espio stop me from saying something stupid I'll regret. There are no words for this. I'm just going to go have lunch and a lemonade.
I'm very interested in this being the LAST rant about the game.

He's had about 20 last rants about the game so far I'm interested in seeing how long the streak will go.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Don't even know why I bother, but:

2:Tries to air escape and gets re-combo'd/read and resetted, or doesn't and eats full damage. Two possibilities with 100% consistent outcomes with some variance, but the variance the player who fucked up can add into the situation is VERY high risk and can be counterplayed.
I'm sorry that you don't get away for free, and actually have to think about what your opponent might do, and pick your times to break away rather than mashing it in a braindead fashion. Thinking is something which is generally desirable in fighting games. Having to make a read isn't randomness -- it rewards you for dissecting and anticipating your opponent's behavior.

1: Anti airs are unreliable, even the broke ones, because they can still be beaten by imperceptible timing mixups on your jump in ON TOP OF which jump in you used.

2: Jumps are unreactable, this throws a wrench in the idea of preserving or taking ground
We literally just watched a tournament where people were flawless blocked, low-profiled, and repeatedly anti-aired for jumping in. Yes, you won't stop every single jump-in, but if it looks dicey you're free to block it. I'm in favor of a slight adjustment to make jump kicks less potent, but they way you're portraying jump-ins is patently false.

3: Button ranges are variable because of dash canceling. People at the highest level, even by accident, sometimes add range to their buttons when they don't mean to but it just works. This means there is no "spot" for your character to control, which is a literal defining aspect of footsies.
That's called movement. It happens in fighting games. If you can't account for the fact that your opponent might dash cancel, you aren't playing footsies. You can invent a new Chernyy word for it ("Toesies?"), but footsies are inclusive of the movement mechanics in every fighting game.

4: Fuck neutral moves that require complete hard reads to beat (Jacqui dash punch) or just don't have any risk to them if not used point blank (Geras sandtrap, Cet Geyser). These moves are often not even made more risky except at point blank by gaining ground against those characters.
Moves exist in every fighting game that don't lead to much but are relatively safe. She can't confirm Dash Punch into anything, so I'm not sure what you're crying about. In tournament high level play you might see someone get hit with one Dash Punch in neutral in an entire match. Big deal.


Part 3: The game is all mix and setplay, or zoning with no counterplay.

1: Unreactable staggers
2: String or d1 into yolo launching special
3: Throws are 50/50's with potential explosiveness due to KB's
4: Auto shimmies
5: Mids to beat attempting to OS throws and auto shimmies
6: Flawless blocks when it's your turn
7: Point blank jump on block for either player
8: Fatal blow
9: Variable pushback based on stand or duck block + variable blockstun on tons of moves
10: Zoning tools with literally no counterplay that become no riskier depending on how close you are with pushback or plus frames
You're not supposed to be able to 'react' to every stagger. They are tools for opening people up in a defense and block-heavy game. d1~special is a (full combo punishable in 98% of cases) read to blow up your mashing. If you're getting hit by it, stop mashing. Throws are 14%, but every time you throw you're risking eating a highly damaging punish, as evidenced this weekend again. How many throw attempts did we see punished for 30-40%? One throw KB happening per match does not offset that risk.

You're saying that the game is created for the best players to not be able to beat lesser players, but then you cite flawless block as a negative. I'm sorry, but bums are neither flawless blocking nor baiting flawless blocks. That is high level play and the game is designed around it. You've shot your own argument in the foot.

More variables in the close range game especially than MKX or Inj2.
And that is by design, since there are less tools that don't require spacing to use. Geras' auto-tracking sand trap is the exception in MK11, not the rule, and it's part of why he's sitting at the top of the tier list right now. The amount of stuff you had to get through in INJ2 just to be able to start playing footsies (instant hitscan tools, projectiles that were high/low mixups on meter burn, auto-tracking options) against numerous characters runs counter to your argument.


MK11 lacks the ability to CONTROL people with MU knowledge and consistent punishment/neutral winning results. It's honestly the games biggest flaw, and it leaves people with the incorrect belief that the game is balanced, or that the level of competition is higher. This definitely means it's possible for Sonic, Ninja, Rewind etc to lose to a player worse than them, or possible for them to beat a player they are worse than. Even at the highest level. It's abysmal.
Sonic is literally bumming it at tournaments, playing 100% Kollector for kicks/extra challenge without a change or counterpick. I'm pretty sure it's not because he's struggling to beat lesser players with his mains.

This post is nonsense. It makes you look far worse than you were attempting to make the game look.
 
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Zviko

Noob
Did he just say "if you disagree, you are wrong"?

Not a single mention of words "human", "mistakes", "lag" etc. Yes you can be better than your opponent but there are many, more believable reasons for your loss against such opponent than "a game working against you". You can be better but simply play worse in that particular match. Unreactable jumps, staggers...? Sonic must've hit like a million D2 AAs over the weekend. And he was even hitconfirming Kollector's F3.

Get the fuck outta here and git gud.
 

Marlow

Premium
Premium Supporter
Part One: Breakaway Punishes You For Your Fundamentals

I really don't think it punishes you. Yes, there's more of a layered guess work to make, but in practically all of those guesses the risk reward is still very much in your favor.
 

Evil Canadian

G O K U
Royal Contributor
also you know why its easy to be consistent in mk11?

cause the same fucking people are in the top of tournaments.

Inconsistency would be like Season 1 of SFV, where it was a crapshoot who would make top 16.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
also you know why its easy to be consistent in mk11?

cause the same fucking people are in the top of tournaments.

Inconsistency would be like Season 1 of SFV, where it was a crapshoot who would make top 16.
Even at EVO, which characteristically has some of the most unexpected placements for our games (especially first-year EVO), there's not one player who placed that you wouldn't expect to be there.

These are actually the most consistent early tournament results so far for an NRS game.
 
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Sazbak

Noob
Why are we still discussing the effectiveness of jumpins after REO's data analysis? Also antiairs are called antiairs because they are supposed to work when you at least read and react to a jumpin. Having to flawless block basic stuff like jumpins so then we can spend 2 bars of meter to launch the opponent and also another one for decent damage(e.g. Scorpion), is ridiculous. Make d2s work consistently for a simple 140 damage counter against jumpins and if you want to try flawless blocking for a bigger reward then be my guest.
 

Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
If you disagree, you are wrong. <snip> I won't respond to any arguments that try to seriously argue this
This post is not a discussion... he strait up says anyone that disagrees is wrong and that he will not listen to any counter arguments. So why dose this thread exist? This belongs on a blog or twitter. This is a discussion board... saying things like the above is just lame AF, and shows that he dose not even have faith in his own words, cause you know that all the best thoughts are able to hold up to examination.

Mods should just delete it this thread, this is a discussion board and this is nothing but unfocused negativity.

also you know why its easy to be consistent in mk11?

cause the same fucking people are in the top of tournaments.

Inconsistency would be like Season 1 of SFV, where it was a crapshoot who would make top 16.
This... when a game has the same top players from release to now, that IS consistency. As you say, look at games like SFv or Tekken... those are inconsistent. While MK and DragonBall are constant, as the best players with the most skill rise to the top. If anything he said was true, this would simply not be the case, you would have randoms in top 16 every time... we never have that.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
Chernyy Volk said:
This definitely means it's possible for Sonic, Ninja, Rewind etc to lose to a player worse than them, or possible for them to beat a player they are worse than. Even at the highest level.
Sonic Fox, Ninja Killer, and Rewind are as likely to lose to players who are worse than them as you are likely to make a logical, coherent, and articulate post that criticizes Mortal Kombat 11. Mathematically speaking, either scenario is feasible yet extremely unlikely.

Mortal Kombat 11 looked so good at NEC that the haters are desperate and posting what is only equivalent to verbal diarrhea.
 
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