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Maximilian's issues with MK11

IDYLEHANDZ

Slave to burgers
Variations kill the game for me, did the same in MKX, but i did have further issues with X that arent present in 11.
 

Sazbak

Noob
Yes we do. What people, including you, don't realize is that gamers can identify problems in games but not solve them, that's the devs' job. Just because you find something that COULD BE a problem, that doesn't mean it actually is, and just because your suggested solution/request sounds TO YOU legit, that doesn't mean it actually is, and just like Vslayer just said, just because IT COULD make the game better, that doesn't mean it will actually make the game better to you and/or anybody else in the long run. And when gamers complain and suggest and they just do it without realizing that, or that they do but still do it because they clearly have an agenda behind it with the clear goal of benefit them alone (whatever it is a buff/nerf to a char, a change to a mechanic etc) then it clearly becomes just toxicity and hate with no substance. Of course that there are exceptions to that, and the reason that the Replay-Kombat Kard feature that you brought up worked is because it really was one of those exceptions. But a very good majority of the complaints aren't like that because either one of the two reasons I've mentioned above. And if someone needs to make a stupid fucking comparison between those type of complaints to a social political subject just to justify his complaints, then YOU KNOW you shouldn't take his complaints seriously (again you might have got away with the Kombat Kard thing, but after you just said this, that's the end of the road for you).



^This. And like I said above, if someone needs to make a stupid comparison between those type of complaints to a social political subject just to justify his complaints, then YOU KNOW you shouldn't take his complaints seriously.
That's why I said that if many people make the same complaints then NRS might think about changing. If I as a Sub player complained about Sub-Zero not having a safe overhead+iceball string to NRS then no one would take it seriously because it would be only me complaining and maybe other biased Sub-Zero players.
Also it matters who is the one that's making a complaint. If someone like Dragon posts a video about how stupid Geras's d1 was(which he did) then it might receive more attention(which it did).
I already explained 3 times that my comparison is perfectly legit but I used the women's right movement as a random example.
Care to counter anything I said directly?
In general if you don't like something, regardless how small or big the issue is the way to achieve change is to raise your voice.
Doesn't matter if it's women's voting rights or your dad forgot to put milk in the fridge or it's an unbalanced/unfun feature of the game.

Try to counter this statement if you want to respond, because otherwise I "can't take you seriously".

Also it's cute that you just called the Replay->Kombat card feature an exception. It's a pathetic attempt to invalidate what I'm saying.
I could name other examples as well easily(like the Geras d1) but I know you would try to invalidate them individually with some bullshit explanation while trying to avoid talking about the underlying abstract thought.
I repeat it again.

In general if you don't like something, regardless how small or big the issue is the way to achieve change is to raise your voice.
Doesn't matter if it's women's voting rights or your dad forgot to put milk in the fridge or it's an unbalanced/unfun feature of the game.


Counter this and explain it to me how this is wrong instead of bullshitting around.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
That's why I said that if many people make the same complaints then NRS might think about changing. If I as a Sub player complained about Sub-Zero not having a safe overhead+iceball string to NRS then no one would take it seriously because it would be only me complaining and maybe other biased Sub-Zero players.
Also it matters who is the one that's making a complaint. If someone like Dragon posts a video about how stupid Geras's d1 was(which he did) then it might receive more attention(which it did).
I already explained 3 times that my comparison is perfectly legit but I used the women's right movement as a random example.
Care to counter anything I said directly?
In general if you don't like something, regardless how small or big the issue is the way to achieve change is to raise your voice.
Doesn't matter if it's women's voting rights or your dad forgot to put milk in the fridge or it's an unbalanced/unfun feature of the game.

Try to counter this statement if you want to respond, because otherwise I "can't take you seriously".

Also it's cute that you just called the Replay->Kombat card feature an exception. It's a pathetic attempt to invalidate what I'm saying.
I could name other examples as well easily(like the Geras d1) but I know you would try to invalidate them individually with some bullshit explanation while trying to avoid talking about the underlying abstract thought.
I repeat it again.

In general if you don't like something, regardless how small or big the issue is the way to achieve change is to raise your voice.
Doesn't matter if it's women's voting rights or your dad forgot to put milk in the fridge or it's an unbalanced/unfun feature of the game.


Counter this and explain it to me how this is wrong instead of bullshitting around.
I'm not bullshiting, nor I have to, because your own words and your clear intention of only wanting to win this argument for the sake of being the right one alone already do it against you.

The real indicator of solving problems in gaming is not the one who suggesting the solutions nor the quantity of people who do so, it is if it goes against the devs' vision for the game and if it happens to be discovered by the devs' that it is indeed as the solution for the game. All of the complaints do is just to bring supposed issues to the table, and once again not to solve them, as this is the dev's job. A lot of people, including Sonic Fox himself, have suggested that MK11 should have Custom Variations in tourneys, and yet NRS have stuck to their guns and kept the Variation system as it is with adding new Competitive Variations, because they knew it was the best for the game. Another example is back in MKX, NRS gave Reptile in the post EVO 2015 patch the ability to link strings off of EX Invisibility in the Deceptive Variation, which was a big buff for him. Nobody asked for this particular buff (and FTR, he didn't need buffs that much to begin with) but NRS still gave it to him, because they knew it was the best for Reptile and MKX as a whole.

And yes, the Kombat Kard example is an exception, because there are things that objectively can only help the game like this case and can be suggested, or that are objectively crucial, so people have to inform the devs about them. And it's not the only one, mind you.

So yes you can technically raise your voice, but you still have to know when it's the right time to do so, because the vast majority of "problems" in MK11 and previous NRS games that people have brought up, are just subjective-based nagging stuff only. And if something is mentioned way too many times by way too many people when it's objectively a non-issue, or should be solved by other ways, then the quantity of those unnecessary complaints can only be harmful, and in this case, harmful to MK11.

That is why negativity is bad by it's core, and it needs to be used properly if you wanna use it for good. And IT'S YOUR JOB TO TAKE EVERY CASE AS IT'S OWN. That's also why your comparison wasn't legit, because even though you did mention it was just a random example, the fact that you put all of those examples (gaming complaints, women's voting rights and the milk example) on the same field just because they are all types of complaints, shows the lack of awareness and care around you that so many others have already shown for years.

Those are the facts dude.
 
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xKMMx

Noob
I feel like esports tournaments are good evidence against Maximilian and others' opinion that the game is too easy. If the skill ceiling was so small how can one player be so dominant? I don't think players like Sonic Fox, NinjaKilla, Dragon, etc. wouldn't consistently rise and I don't think Sonic Fox in particular could dominate like he has if the game didn't have a real skill ceiling to it.
I think maybe you misunderstood what he meant. What he is saying is that the range of ways to play characters is what is very limited and has a very low ceiling. He makes the point that when he feels stuck or like he has maxed out a characters potential he looks at what pro's or other people are doing with the character and he sees that they are literally only doing the same stuff he is doing but they are much better at knowing the timing and spacing. So they are obviously much higher skill level but still are not able to find tech that he wasn't able to find himself because its just not there to find because the game is very simple and limiting.
I think his whole point is not about skill level as far as winning matches its just that execution and variety has a very low ceiling.
His whole video is about the game just being dry and not having a lot of qualities that keep you engaged in a way that is continually fun and rewarding unless you really love this over simplified variety of MK.
 

Vhozite

Jade Worshipper
I feel like esports tournaments are good evidence against Maximilian and others' opinion that the game is too easy. If the skill ceiling was so small how can one player be so dominant? I don't think players like Sonic Fox, NinjaKilla, Dragon, etc. wouldn't consistently rise and I don't think Sonic Fox in particular could dominate like he has if the game didn't have a real skill ceiling to it.
I have absolutely no dogs in this discussion, but
Lower skill ceiling =/= low skill ceiling
Also even the simplest FG's are super deep compared to other games as far as the mental aspect goes.
 
MK9:

A character who has relentless rushdown and constant frame traps

A character that threatens a one hit kill with meter

A character that will probably take 90% of your hp before you walk across the screen

A character will put you in a corner and make your life hell

A character that is an overwhelming jack of all trades

You can probably read each one of those lines and think of a very specific character from the game (one or two might be too generic, but even then it's only a couple). What I love about that game though is that basically all of those characters are viable at any level outside of the absolute highest, and it's a treat to watch each one do their thing. There's variety and uncertantity as an observer, and you really feel the identity of each playstyle.

I feel like the "archetypes" for mk11 are "pressure, zoner, both", and low and behold the best characters are the "both". There's so many flavorful moves that just aren't in variations (shange fire tornado comes to mind) or are nerfed to almsot losing their identity (ice clone goes from strategy defining to rare space control).

I'm all for a more footsies based, less difficult combo system, but that doesn't mean that baraka shouldn't be able to punish you and rip 90% of your HP off on the proper punish. He probably shouldn't do that every damn game, but the threat should at least exist. I was initially interested in geras as a decent NRS grappler, but in reality he's diet kabal, with threats from just about anywhere, which is boring as sin.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
Yes I did, because on an abstract level it's the same. If you don't like something you raise your voice regardless how small or big the issue is.
ALSO IF YOU WRITE IN CAPITAL LETTERS DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT OM,GHGHGHKMTGKDFMKN.

So yeah people who don't like stuff in this game should be listened to and not mocked.
Fun bit of irony, in your sad metaphor women getting the right to vote IS NRS changing their game as they have. Your need to bring back the old days is no different than people who thought women voting was too new and scary for "modern" politics.
 

OzzFoxx

Hardcore gaming poser.
Premium Supporter
Yeah, I think it's a personal taste thing.

I'm anti-lab. I wanted a fighting game that would get me playing against another human as quickly as possible, without the necessity of spending more than 10 minutes in training. When I was younger I could afford to spend months learning every move of every character in Tekken Tag, but I just don't have time to do stuff like that any more, so more straightforward games are appealing.

I remember something David Sirlin wrote years ago about wanting to limit the time that people needed to invest in "single player" (meaning training modes) in fighting games before they felt comfortable competing against other players. That philosophy eventually became Fantasy Strike, but for older ex-arcade players like me, it inspired nostalgia for the ways fighting games used to be. Learning what tools were at your disposal didn't take single player "lab time", your learning was how to use those tools against live players. MK11, for me, is closer to that experience, so that's one of the reasons I dig it.

Max is into flashy stuff, novelty, and watching excellent players exploit systems. I respect that, but that's not what I want out of a fighting game. I think there's space in the genre to appeal to many different types of players, and games don't have to be crammed full of complicated systems and interactions in order to be considered successful.
This does make sense. MvCI is the ultimate labbing game and it’s not fun b/c it’s too much to lab. NRS has really been the only studio to nail that balance for me.
 

MORDECA1

Noob
I think maybe you misunderstood what he meant. What he is saying is that the range of ways to play characters is what is very limited and has a very low ceiling. He makes the point that when he feels stuck or like he has maxed out a characters potential he looks at what pro's or other people are doing with the character and he sees that they are literally only doing the same stuff he is doing but they are much better at knowing the timing and spacing. So they are obviously much higher skill level but still are not able to find tech that he wasn't able to find himself because its just not there to find because the game is very simple and limiting.
I think his whole point is not about skill level as far as winning matches its just that execution and variety has a very low ceiling.
His whole video is about the game just being dry and not having a lot of qualities that keep you engaged in a way that is continually fun and rewarding unless you really love this over simplified variety of MK.
Yeah, you are right that was his main point. But he did say, right before going on into that point i think, that MK11 was advertised as being more footsie heavy but that it clearly wasn't it was just simplified. But I still feel like there is a contradiction there. If there is still consistency at tournaments amonst pro players that is a good evidence that what is giving the game the skill cieling it has is the footsies. Like, didn't Max say something like the competitors don't do anything combo-wise that he can't, its just the discretion of when to do the appropriate moves. Which to me is coming pretty close to saying that the footsies in the game have been improved a bit. That is why tournaments have consistency amongst the competitors.
 

ruthlezz997

YOU TASK A THUNDER GOD!
Yeah, you are right that was his main point. But he did say, right before going on into that point i think, that MK11 was advertised as being more footsie heavy but that it clearly wasn't it was just simplified. But I still feel like there is a contradiction there. If there is still consistency at tournaments amonst pro players that is a good evidence that what is giving the game the skill cieling it has is the footsies. Like, didn't Max say something like the competitors don't do anything combo-wise that he can't, its just the discretion of when to do the appropriate moves. Which to me is coming pretty close to saying that the footsies in the game have been improved a bit. That is why tournaments have consistency amongst the competitors.
Max certainly cant admit MK takes a little bit more skill than usual in other departments other than combos. He is very,very biased towards broken games with dumb shit,so of course he is gonna have negative opinion of this game (which needs extreme amount of polishing and changes to actually be considered amazing,I myself am not playing for month already,cant stand the state of Raiden and NRS doing nothing to help).
 

xKMMx

Noob
Variations kill the game for me, did the same in MKX, but i did have further issues with X that arent present in 11.
Help me understand your point of view on the variations being a problem. ITs a VERY common complaint about both of the games mentioned.
To me its a good way to have three different ways to play a certain character and is interesting. In MKX I think it was executed well . All three predator variations played extremely different while still retaining enough universal stuff to make the learning curve manageable to learn each variation without feeling like your learning an entirely new character.
In MK11 like a lot of other things , I feel like it was a good idea but just poorly executed.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
I dont get the hate on the variations. Like sure some are more useless than others, which is inevitable given the large number of them but so what? Every character has at least 1 if not 2 variations that alter the play style and strategy considerably and implement some variety in the game.
The solution shouldnt be removing them but bringing the ones that suck to a higher tier ((Frost v1 Im looking at you)
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Max has told the truth, its up to anyone who is butt hurt to choose to ignore it, its hard, but its truth, i know he doesn't says this to shit in the game, but its just the simple truth.

There is a reason why tekken a game that has been out since 2015 saw MKX coming and go and by this year is still more hype than MK11, which is sad.
 

NaCl man

Welcome to Akihabara
I feel like esports tournaments are good evidence against Maximilian and others' opinion that the game is too easy. If the skill ceiling was so small how can one player be so dominant? I don't think players like Sonic Fox, NinjaKilla, Dragon, etc. wouldn't consistently rise and I don't think Sonic Fox in particular could dominate like he has if the game didn't have a real skill ceiling to it.
That's the talent of the players it has nothing to do with the skill ceiling of the game.
 

Linkuei82

Live by the sword, Die by the sword
Premium Supporter
Honestly, the last two games seem watered down and stale with the past 4 NRS games.
 

xKMMx

Noob
Too many people who say mk11 is their first mk and then you find out they like it so much partly because of the simplicity
It would be a great learning game cause you can pretty easily get wins off throws in this game especially if you have a character like NOob that has KBs off his throws. So in that aspect its a great starter game but for people that arent beginners that very thing is what makes this game feel so boring and lame.
 

xKMMx

Noob
It's weird how obvious it is to me that people in this topic didn't watch the video and are just saying shit to be able to say they had an opinion.

Anyone talking about how this game is "fundamentals intensive" is actually insane. This game is the exact opposite. That's why people dislike the game simplification aside. The depth that is supposed to be there because of footsies and characters range interactions ISN'T THERE BECAUSE JUMPING IS TOO GOOD, MOVEMENT IS TOO GOOD AND THE GAME IS ALL MIX. It's MKX2 with rearranged priorities. Like, if you're gonna make the game a shithead mix fest, it at least needs to be an engaging entertaining one. That's what Max is trying to say.

I just don't get this community lol
Totally agree some of the statements here sound as if folks either have no comprehension of spoken English or just didn't watch the video at all.
 
It would be a great learning game cause you can pretty easily get wins off throws in this game especially if you have a character like NOob that has KBs off his throws. So in that aspect its a great starter game but for people that arent beginners that very thing is what makes this game feel so boring and lame.
the weird thing is that nrs didn't need to simplify it. they would get millions of sales by just slapping mk on a disc. doesn't help that throws are 2 damage stronger than they were in mkx with varying levels of strength depending on the character you play (scorpion with burning spear etc)
 

xiskza

Underworld
He makes some good points, but most of them are just stupid. Max doesnt have the best taste in fighting games anyway