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Tech Making any string safe

I haven't seen anyone else talk about this, so I don't know how new or good it is, but Lobo can pull the same shenanigans as Supes with making his strings safe. If you end strings like 21 or b12, good strings that are unsafe on block, with Pump Shot, it makes you unpunishable. High Pump Shot is -1 on block, while Mid and Low are -9.

I haven't gotten to try this in very many matches, only in the lab and a few offline friendlies. If you guys could try this and report back to see if it works / is helpful, that would be awesome.
 

BGMD

Noob
here is what I know for sure

- b12 is not unsafe on block, but there is a gap that can be punished by Superman's super
- Superman (Hawkgirl?) can punish you with super when you're canceling most strings into special because there is a gap between but not with f21 pump shot
with other reversals should be fine (pu

- 11(2) pump shot is completely safe
- j3 is completely safe on block (it says -6, must be wrong)
 
A lot of supers could punish Lobo in his 11(gap)3 and b1(gap)2, not just Superman's. His super hits the most quickly, but (all?) supers have frame 1 armor/invuln. Any other moves with frame 1 armor or invuln can go through the gap as well, though like the supers, they are not necessarily fast enough to punish. Batman/Killer Frost/Wonder Woman's parries can punish them, too (Couldn't get Joker's to work, so either the gaps are both one frame, or my execution was off).

b12 is +4 on block with a small gap (1 frame?) between the two hits. It's probably not a good idea to high shot after this string since the opponent will be likely be blocking low anyway and the opponent can't even move yet since there's too much blockstun on the 2, so even if they try to do something, the shot will whiff over them. If they stand-block the 2, it's gapless, but you're still sacrificing +4 and pushing the opponent further back whether it's blocked or not.

21 xx highshot is fine, I think, since the opponent either stands to block 1 or gets hit and forced to stand anyway. I generally try to use the 21 string only when I have nuclear shells loaded, but early on I experimented with 21 xx highshot and 21 xx grab as a mix-up and found it too unrewarding since high shot on hit is +1 with pushback (too much to reach with any normals) and on block is -1, so whether it hits or not, it's hard to continue pressure. There is also a small gap between the 1 and the highshot that can be armored/backdashed, which the opponent may try anyway to avoid 21 xx grab. 21 xx lowshot is the only gapless pump shot off 2 or 21 and it's -9 without trait.

One thing you can do to make strings safe as well (like 21 and b2u1) is MB Hook Charge. It costs a meter, but leaves you + on block (this amount varies, but I believe it's always +), and leaves you close enough to do follow-up pressure. b2u1 xx hookcharge has a 2-frame gap and 21 xx hookcharge is gapless. I've been using b2u1 xx MB bf3 to make b2u1 safe against people who try to jump out of b2u1 xx grab and I think it works well.

EDIT: b2u1 xx lowshot has a gap, my mistake.

DOUBLE EDIT: ...As does b2u1 xx hook charge(man, I suck at testing things properly).
 

Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
I'll usually keep the frame advantage from b12 and 113. but for 21 and b2u1, without trait I'll cancel into either command grab or mb hook charge. With trait I cancel them into low shot for a combo opportunity.
 

Lord Hollow

The Sage Of Michigan.
I'm really not a fan of ending a string with high shot. The opponent is usually either ducking anyway, or ducks after blocking 2,1 in anticipation of low shot or Low Space Hook. I prefer the mid shot or low personally. Mid and low shot are -6 on block, I believe. With the pushback, its relatively safe.

b+1,2 is +4 on block, also. More than safe.
 

Lord Hollow

The Sage Of Michigan.
I've been told that f21xxdb1 not only makes you safe but you're at advantage.
This can be tested easily. Do that string and see if Lex Corp Charge can punish on block. If this is true, this could be nice. If no one else does before I get home, I'll test and post the results.
 

BGMD

Noob
Wow. What would you put the advantage at if you had to guess, BGMD?
actually, I'm not sure anymore... I should really test stuff again before posting lol
I know when Ketchup posted this info I went to test it, he said he was beating Batman's 1 which is 6 frames
but hey, at least it safe.. yay
 

Lord Hollow

The Sage Of Michigan.
True. I'm gonna do a bunch of testing when I get home, just out of curiosity. Just brainstorming, but I wonder if it will work to shorten the time on b+1,2? If it hits and Spin Cycle recovers faster than the launcher, we got some sick stuff that can come from that...
 

BGMD

Noob
I got it all backwards actually... I was testing some other stuff, and CC was stuffing everything I tried lol
slowly but surely, I'm getting old and senile

EDIT: stuffing CC part was from doing j3 on block
 

BGMD

Noob
but I wonder if it will work to shorten the time on b+1,2? If it hits and Spin Cycle recovers faster than the launcher, we got some sick stuff that can come from that...
they just fall too fast from b12, I'm afraid it's not possible... counterproductive even

Wait, whiffing spincycle allows you to recover faster?
yes, you cancel a bunch of recovery frames from certain strings, mainly f21
 
Wow, I coulda sworn I'd read everything in these threads, I must have missed that. I'm going to start incorporating that.
 

Red Venom

The Main Man of TYM
Gotta study for some stuff at work, but posting a comment so I know when this thread gets more info.
 
I missed that spincycle trick, too. f21 xx db1 looks like it leaves you at (I think) -2, with trait unfortunately not seeming to make a difference. Arguably better than f213 leaving you closer at -3. What other strings does it speed the recovery of?

And I should have tested the parries better as well instead of going mainly off memory. Seems that they are all subject to the rule of the movelist's startup frames not including active frames as well, meaning Batman, Wonder Woman, and Killer Frost's parries have 2-frame startup and not 1. So while not technically wrong about them beating 11(gap)3 and b1(gap)2, they only work sometimes. Turns out 113 is airtight either stand-blocked at max range or if the second 1 hits a little late in its active frames, which can happen if a crouching non-big body character crouch-blocks it or stand-blocks into it. It has a 2-frame gap (can be parried) if a character stand-blocks the first 1 and crouch-blocks the second 1 (So they are hit by the first active frame of the second 1 AND their hitbox is lowered to allow more time before the 3 would connect.). Otherwise, it's 1-frame.
b12 seems to always have a 1-frame gap unless done at max range, where it has a 2-frame gap (can be parried).

In other words, parries will probably never be an issue for the two strings.
 
On the subject of parries - that shiz is stupid when it comes to lobo. HOOKCHARGE can be parried, and looks absolutely stupid in the process. They gave Lobo a teleport, in that if hook charge is parried, you are instantly next to Batman getting your ACL destroyed. Sorry about the out of place rant, but this hadn't been one to me until i started playing the AI on very hard, and it is stupid.
 

Lord Hollow

The Sage Of Michigan.
I've been told that f21xxdb1 not only makes you safe but you're at advantage.
At best, its safe. Lex's charge cannot punish.I would put it at about -3.

Tested against Raven's Soul Crush (13 frame start up).

1 - (7 frames) Beat it every time
2 - (12 frames) never beat it
b+1 - (10 frames) sometimes beat it, but I may have been a frame or two off.
3 - (11 frames) never beat it.
d+3 - (13 frames) never beat it.