Low Poke Hierarchy I'd Personally Like To See

[Chernyy Volk]

I've always said that NRS games would benefit from more and more universalizing of super basic tools. Particularly, I think if they shared more similarity with Tekken we'd see some cool shit taking form. I've thought about it, and while it's unlikely I'd like to overall see this in MK11.

So, I've been thinking about basic low pokes. D1, 2 3 and 4.

D1: Always 6f, not special cancelable, never more than +5 on hit
D2: Upper body invincible universal anti air
D3: Always 8f, make it link into specials, combos scale heavily
D4: Zero on hit but massive pushback/stagger like in MKX, a get off me/zoning button essentially. Also not cancelable. I'd make these like 11f minimum on startup.

Thoughts? Just a random thought in the AM.

 

[SaSSolino]

I'd like d4s to be more than 0 on hit honestly, but how much depends on the movement system. With dash block, which I hope God makes a return, they should be plus enough on hit to grant a safe dash in, but not plus enough to grant a dash in to free buttons.

Also I like cancellable pokes, but I don't like them to combo on hit like in INJ. I agree that they should scale a lot though.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

I've always said that NRS games would benefit from more and more universalizing of super basic tools. Particularly, I think if they shared more similarity with Tekken we'd see some cool shit taking form. I've thought about it, and while it's unlikely I'd like to overall see this in MK11.

So, I've been thinking about basic low pokes. D1, 2 3 and 4.

D1: Always 6f, not special cancelable, never more than +5 on hit
D2: Upper body invincible universal anti air
D3: Always 8f, make it link into specials, combos scale heavily
D4: Zero on hit but massive pushback/stagger like in MKX, a get off me/zoning button essentially. Also not cancelable. I'd make these like 11f minimum on startup.

Thoughts? Just a random thought in the AM.

D1: I agree, but imo they should be more plus on hit but also more negative. If the way punishing works is the same, then they should be -6 as to not make them punishable, but mashable. I think they should be +10 to guarantee a mid, if its only plus 5 then you get no guaranteed highs, and any mids slower than 11f will get beaten. With plus 10 you can start pressure from a high and use a mid.

D2: I do want invincible anti airs, however there needs to be some type of caveat. With DBFZ and SFV, invincible anti airs have some kind of drawback to stop.them from being too easy mode. DBFZ's anti airs aren't frame 1 invincible and SFV anti airs have a harder input. Imo they should go with the DBFZ style anti air to stop them from being too powerful. A one button anti air that's insta invincible means as long as there's any point you recover while they're in the air, you can stop a jump with no problem.

D3: I don't think pokes should be cancellable imo. If anything, d3 should be the get off me tool and make slightly negative on block and and neutral on hit.

D4: Due to the slow speed I think they should be more plus in hit, not plus enough to dash/run up into anything, but enough that you can check any buttons afterwards. They also shouldn't have any low profiling properties like some d4's did.

 

[Marlow]

I actually like having the moves be slightly less universal because I think it helps to create opportunities for more diverse character options, or interesting ways to try and balance characters a bit.

 

[TheTetraSpirit]

I actually like having the moves be slightly less universal because I think it helps to create opportunities for more diverse character options, or interesting ways to try and balance characters a bit.

It creates interesting ways to make obnoxious-ass characters that can abuse certain things more easily.

Anyway, literally just copy MK9's poke set-up, except, as you say, make D1s a little more plus so you don't get repeatedly bullied by fast mids after successfully poking out of pressure

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I do think making them closer to universal is a good idea

 

[Chernyy Volk]

D1: I agree, but imo they should be more plus on hit but also more negative. If the way punishing works is the same, then they should be -6 as to not make them punishable, but mashable. I think they should be +10 to guarantee a mid, if its only plus 5 then you get no guaranteed highs, and any mids slower than 11f will get beaten. With plus 10 you can start pressure from a high and use a mid.

D2: I do want invincible anti airs, however there needs to be some type of caveat. With DBFZ and SFV, invincible anti airs have some kind of drawback to stop.them from being too easy mode. DBFZ's anti airs aren't frame 1 invincible and SFV anti airs have a harder input. Imo they should go with the DBFZ style anti air to stop them from being too powerful. A one button anti air that's insta invincible means as long as there's any point you recover while they're in the air, you can stop a jump with no problem.

D3: I don't think pokes should be cancellable imo. If anything, d3 should be the get off me tool and make slightly negative on block and and neutral on hit.

D4: Due to the slow speed I think they should be more plus in hit, not plus enough to dash/run up into anything, but enough that you can check any buttons afterwards. They also shouldn't have any low profiling properties like some d4's did.

The D1's should be PURELY to stop momentum. +5 is not enough to jail into offense but enough to play a poke/backdash chase mindgame.

I agree with DBZ style D2's.

D3 being special cancelable and a combo starter as long as it's heavily scaled is definitely fair. It can't be hit confirmed. Just make it the universally lowest damage route for everyone.

D4's should be neutral because we don't need NRS advancing half screen mids checking you immediately after lol.