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Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
Can you explain this in more detail for the idiots like myself?

Db3 is his move that charges up his hands and gives his low staff special a ground projectile right?

How does that reversal anything?
Df4 while powered up in discharge also causes it to shoot a low projectile. So I'm guessing because he has a fullscreen anti air that the idea is to make people jump?

I honestly feel like this variation might be bugged because he has a AMP pop up from Df4 that's +30 on hit but you can't follow it up at all. In fact, it feels NEGATIVE on it.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Df4 while powered up in discharge also causes it to shoot a low projectile. So I'm guessing because he has a fullscreen anti air that the idea is to make people jump?

I honestly feel like this variation might be bugged because he has a AMP pop up from Df4 that's +30 on hit but you can't follow it up at all. In fact, it feels NEGATIVE on it.
My thoughts exactly. Why pop up if you can't combo?? I literally said this in my clan's chat last night lmao


the downside of this is that youre gonna be singing "hit me baby one more time" every time you play raijin.
Good thing I love me some Britney!
 

Cosmic Forge

Practice mode noob
DF4 Low Current definitely launched / extended combos in the beta. You can see it in one of the Ketchup/Mustard videos. Not sure why they removed it. I have a feeling the launcher will return.

As well as Jo Push being improved. As it is right now, this move is inferior to storm cell. If you do a string that puts the opponent in the air then Jo Push, there's a good chance the amplified hit will miss.

Speaking of other useless moves/variations. The one where you drop the pole on the screen and it redirects his lightning abilities is marginally useful. IE, it's not worth a slot.

Same goes for Lightning Storm, that flying stance. I mean, you CAN combo into it with some strings, but why trade teleport for it?
 

f24

Don't F*** with a God
So I ran a set with a friend who was playing scorpion.

Gotta say, Scorpion looks like a bad MU. He full combo punishes df2 from anywhere with his teleport and he can do the safe on reaction with superman cancels. We can stay safe from it by cancelling immediately but then you give up your turn because you don't get as much distance as possible.

His D4 low profiles all our jump ins, and b12 which really hurts.

What do you all think?
Totally agreed, I have a hard time with the scorpion match up too. Getting baited into any of our advancing strings and being punished by jump away air teleport is super annoying. I have to play a little more defensive against scorpion than I’d like because you have to respect the teleport so much in that match up.
 
Been a Raiden main since I started playing Mk. Honestly this is the most difficult Raiden has been to play ever for me. His play style is completely different from MK 9 and MKX. There are a few tips I have specifically for the Thunder Wave variation. Use superman cancel to apply pressure. With alot of Raiden's options for mixups being so susceptible to poke out B1,2 is his second fastest opener. The problem is it can be blocked very easily. So B1,2 into superman cancel will usually allow you to apply pressure with F4 and catching alot of foes just pressing buttons.

To assist anyone not able to connect the F4 aafter ex Storm, J3/4. When you do the Jump 3/4 make sure you are delaying the kick. The best way i found to do it, is to wait until Raiden is making his decent and then do the kick and right after the J3/4 you can immediately input the F4 into superman. The way I got used to the timing is to wait until Raidens head on the decent of the jump almost goes past the opponents feet and then kick.

I hope this helps someone.
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
I need some help. When do you use f2 and when do you use f4? I know f2 has massive hit advantage and better recovery but it’s a high. I feel f4 is a much better halfscreen poke since you can always do superman cancels off it. Plus it starts up faster so it’s a better whiff punisher than f2. Is there some conditioning needed before you can start throwing out f2?
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
It's actually a mix up from a distance though a risky one. I use f2 as a stagger into a grab. You cannot grab after f4, way to much recovery.

And I agree scorpion is a really touch matchup with all of the neutral breaking tools/ staggers he has.
Isn't F4 on hit into grab also a frame trap because it's +5? Or do you mean whiffing/staffering into grab on block?
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
I need some help. When do you use f2 and when do you use f4? I know f2 has massive hit advantage and better recovery but it’s a high. I feel f4 is a much better halfscreen poke since you can always do superman cancels off it. Plus it starts up faster so it’s a better whiff punisher than f2. Is there some conditioning needed before you can start throwing out f2?
Honestly, I've been using F4 to condition them so they start blocking when in range of forward F4. Then instead I do F2 which whiffs in their face and recovers super quick so I go for grab or string. This is most likely a gimmick but it's so hard to tell the difference between F2 and F4.
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
So I'm stubborn, and stubborn people are often dumb. Dumb enough to mess around with Raijin and not give up completely. So here is everything I have found that has been extremely successful for the Raijin variation:

The Gameplan: The easiest comparison I could make to this variation is how Jade plays. You are a zoner who has short combos outside of Krushing blows, but can send the opponent to the corner very fast via staff spin from long reaching high normals. In this case, Raiden has Electric fly. The good news is that you don't need to worry about your opponent escaping your combos with breakaway, however, this is where their similarities end.

The Purpose: The entire purpose of this variation is to set up discharge and do zoning with BF1 and DB4. The low projectile is extremely reactable but up close the staff low makes this more difficult to react to and so your opponent will want to jump. How fitting since Raiden has a fullscreen anti air with db2 at that spacing that sends them back fullscreen. It should also be of note that on hit, (+50) Raiden has enough time to apply another Discharge should it run out. The hit advantage is so large in fact that in the corner, Raiden can reapply Discharge on the opponent's wakeup and still have enough time block or meaty with B12. For this reason, your main combo punish on the opponent should almost always be: 21, DB2 (AMP) or B31, DB2 (AMP) as these strings are the only ones that allow Raiden to connect his Anti Air Grab in midscreen combos. In the corner, you can use 21, D1 (x3), 243, DB2 (AMP)

The Loop: Discharge, along with being the fastest reversal punish in the game, is also one of the best counter zoning tools. The startup is four frames with the AMP version being safe on block and covering the entire stage with lightning. Yes, THE ENTIRE STAGE. This means if your opponent manages to get in, or if they try to counter zone you back, the reduced chip damage from discharge is there to encourage you to block their projectiles/strings because doing so gives you access to a threat from anywhere, including behind Raiden. On hit, it lets you activate discharge and start the zoning game all over again. Once they're in, you block, build up discharge, send them fullscreen with a reversal discharge and repeat. This means that managing discharge and offensive meter as the opponent gets in is crucial! It should also be of note that the starting animation is very similar to BF1 which is your fast high projectile.

The 50/50: Raiden's B14 is an advancing mid that ends in an overhead, simply canceling B1 into Raiden's DB4, especially when amplified is a great way to net some free damage at the cost of being extremely unsafe. The good news is the reward lets you walk back or activate discharge. Don't forget that B12 is Mid High so simply staggering with B1 into throw is a great option as well to send the opponent away from you.

DF2: I'm sure you're wondering why exactly we have this special move. Quite honestly, it seems like it is there as an option to send the opponent fullscreen without moving yourself into the corner, but it's primary a combo ender to once again activate discharge safely. For those familiar with Scorpion's Demon Breath ability, you can make it safe through proper spacing. Since the move is -13, a D4, F11, B1, cancelled into DF2 at the right spacing is enough to create a lot of pushback on block. So staggering B1 into D4 cancelled with DF2 is a solid mixup. That being said, reversal specials such as Sub Zero's slide can still punish this so this will be MU specific to avoid taking unnecessary damage. Good thing we have the ability to cancel Electric Fly at the cost of one defense meter.

And that's all I have, I hope this info has been helpful to you all!

@Mandolore1123 @Killaklown13 @kabelfritz @DDutchguy @STB Sgt Reed @All other Raiden Players
 
@DarksydeDash , good post, i agree on a lot of your insights into raijin, but i dont think raijin is a zoner. he loses the zoning battle to almost everyone with a projectile. liu kang, sonya, johnny cage, kano for example - no chance. they can get their projectiles out while raiden is still on startup for both moves. raidens zoning tools are extremely situational and work only after a knockdown or a successful hit. once they avoid one shot, its their turn. its even over after you HIT a DB4 projectile with its +1 or what on hit? also db4 should only be done fullscreen and only when they get too predictable, its so negative on block that a simple dashblock might earn them a full combo punish from midscreen. thats also why there is no real need to jump against raijin and db2 is too slow for an AA on reaction most of the time anyway. so bf1 will still stay the main check, aside of that your job is dashblock in and set up a "db3-scenario", with few exceptions like the jacqui matchup. raidens active zoning can only come into play when they realize they load your gdlk reversal with their shots and start hesitating.

also, db3 discharge is not full but half screen, in both directions though.

about the punishment: 21~db2 is actually slower, shorter and does less damage than 4~db2.
 
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DDutchguy

Stand 4'ing airplanes out of the sky
So I'm stubborn, and stubborn people are often dumb. Dumb enough to mess around with Raijin and not give up completely. So here is everything I have found that has been extremely successful for the Raijin variation:

The Gameplan: The easiest comparison I could make to this variation is how Jade plays. You are a zoner who has short combos outside of Krushing blows, but can send the opponent to the corner very fast via staff spin from long reaching high normals. In this case, Raiden has Electric fly. The good news is that you don't need to worry about your opponent escaping your combos with breakaway, however, this is where their similarities end.

The Purpose: The entire purpose of this variation is to set up discharge and do zoning with BF1 and DB4. The low projectile is extremely reactable but up close the staff low makes this more difficult to react to and so your opponent will want to jump. How fitting since Raiden has a fullscreen anti air with db2 at that spacing that sends them back fullscreen. It should also be of note that on hit, (+50) Raiden has enough time to apply another Discharge should it run out. The hit advantage is so large in fact that in the corner, Raiden can reapply Discharge on the opponent's wakeup and still have enough time block or meaty with B12. For this reason, your main combo punish on the opponent should almost always be: 21, DB2 (AMP) or B31, DB2 (AMP) as these strings are the only ones that allow Raiden to connect his Anti Air Grab in midscreen combos. In the corner, you can use 21, D1 (x3), 243, DB2 (AMP)

The Loop: Discharge, along with being the fastest reversal punish in the game, is also one of the best counter zoning tools. The startup is four frames with the AMP version being safe on block and covering the entire stage with lightning. Yes, THE ENTIRE STAGE. This means if your opponent manages to get in, or if they try to counter zone you back, the reduced chip damage from discharge is there to encourage you to block their projectiles/strings because doing so gives you access to a threat from anywhere, including behind Raiden. On hit, it lets you activate discharge and start the zoning game all over again. Once they're in, you block, build up discharge, send them fullscreen with a reversal discharge and repeat. This means that managing discharge and offensive meter as the opponent gets in is crucial! It should also be of note that the starting animation is very similar to BF1 which is your fast high projectile.

The 50/50: Raiden's B14 is an advancing mid that ends in an overhead, simply canceling B1 into Raiden's DB4, especially when amplified is a great way to net some free damage at the cost of being extremely unsafe. The good news is the reward lets you walk back or activate discharge. Don't forget that B12 is Mid High so simply staggering with B1 into throw is a great option as well to send the opponent away from you.

DF2: I'm sure you're wondering why exactly we have this special move. Quite honestly, it seems like it is there as an option to send the opponent fullscreen without moving yourself into the corner, but it's primary a combo ender to once again activate discharge safely. For those familiar with Scorpion's Demon Breath ability, you can make it safe through proper spacing. Since the move is -13, a D4, F11, B1, cancelled into DF2 at the right spacing is enough to create a lot of pushback on block. So staggering B1 into D4 cancelled with DF2 is a solid mixup. That being said, reversal specials such as Sub Zero's slide can still punish this so this will be MU specific to avoid taking unnecessary damage. Good thing we have the ability to cancel Electric Fly at the cost of one defense meter.

And that's all I have, I hope this info has been helpful to you all!

@Mandolore1123 @Killaklown13 @kabelfritz @DDutchguy @STB Sgt Reed @All other Raiden Players
These are pretty much the same things I found during my brief time with Raijin. Some matchups may have Raijin be a good alternative to Thunder Wave, though I haven't found those yet.
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
So I'm stubborn, and stubborn people are often dumb. Dumb enough to mess around with Raijin and not give up completely. So here is everything I have found that has been extremely successful for the Raijin variation:

The Gameplan: The easiest comparison I could make to this variation is how Jade plays. You are a zoner who has short combos outside of Krushing blows, but can send the opponent to the corner very fast via staff spin from long reaching high normals. In this case, Raiden has Electric fly. The good news is that you don't need to worry about your opponent escaping your combos with breakaway, however, this is where their similarities end.

The Purpose: The entire purpose of this variation is to set up discharge and do zoning with BF1 and DB4. The low projectile is extremely reactable but up close the staff low makes this more difficult to react to and so your opponent will want to jump. How fitting since Raiden has a fullscreen anti air with db2 at that spacing that sends them back fullscreen. It should also be of note that on hit, (+50) Raiden has enough time to apply another Discharge should it run out. The hit advantage is so large in fact that in the corner, Raiden can reapply Discharge on the opponent's wakeup and still have enough time block or meaty with B12. For this reason, your main combo punish on the opponent should almost always be: 21, DB2 (AMP) or B31, DB2 (AMP) as these strings are the only ones that allow Raiden to connect his Anti Air Grab in midscreen combos. In the corner, you can use 21, D1 (x3), 243, DB2 (AMP)

The Loop: Discharge, along with being the fastest reversal punish in the game, is also one of the best counter zoning tools. The startup is four frames with the AMP version being safe on block and covering the entire stage with lightning. Yes, THE ENTIRE STAGE. This means if your opponent manages to get in, or if they try to counter zone you back, the reduced chip damage from discharge is there to encourage you to block their projectiles/strings because doing so gives you access to a threat from anywhere, including behind Raiden. On hit, it lets you activate discharge and start the zoning game all over again. Once they're in, you block, build up discharge, send them fullscreen with a reversal discharge and repeat. This means that managing discharge and offensive meter as the opponent gets in is crucial! It should also be of note that the starting animation is very similar to BF1 which is your fast high projectile.

The 50/50: Raiden's B14 is an advancing mid that ends in an overhead, simply canceling B1 into Raiden's DB4, especially when amplified is a great way to net some free damage at the cost of being extremely unsafe. The good news is the reward lets you walk back or activate discharge. Don't forget that B12 is Mid High so simply staggering with B1 into throw is a great option as well to send the opponent away from you.

DF2: I'm sure you're wondering why exactly we have this special move. Quite honestly, it seems like it is there as an option to send the opponent fullscreen without moving yourself into the corner, but it's primary a combo ender to once again activate discharge safely. For those familiar with Scorpion's Demon Breath ability, you can make it safe through proper spacing. Since the move is -13, a D4, F11, B1, cancelled into DF2 at the right spacing is enough to create a lot of pushback on block. So staggering B1 into D4 cancelled with DF2 is a solid mixup. That being said, reversal specials such as Sub Zero's slide can still punish this so this will be MU specific to avoid taking unnecessary damage. Good thing we have the ability to cancel Electric Fly at the cost of one defense meter.

And that's all I have, I hope this info has been helpful to you all!

@Mandolore1123 @Killaklown13 @kabelfritz @DDutchguy @STB Sgt Reed @All other Raiden Players
Not sure what you mean about df2? Since it's more negative than -13. I assume you mean db2 (summon lightning)? Either way, great write up :D
 

samiorfali

Raiden Player since the 90s
DB3 has three parts:
  • If it has not been activated yet, DB3 gives Raiden lightning hands that reduce chip damage. If you block 3 hits while this mode is activated, you will be charged up. When not charged up, pressing DB3 again does nothing.
  • Once you're charged up, you can press DB3 again for a discharge that does damage. Does a couple % on block and 13.4% when amplified. The main draw that it has 4 frames of startup (3 on reversal), making it the fastest move in the game. Amplified discharge is also safe on block at -5.
  • Side-note, when DB3 is active it gives his DB4 low staff move a projectile. You don't need to be charged up for this to happen.
To give you an idea of the theoretical potential for discharge, I looked at Sub-Zero's strings yesterday. Only his 12 and 33 strings are unpunishable if you do reversal discharge. 33 may still be punishable actually depending on how big the gap is in that string.
So u think Rajin variation is worth it?
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
@DarksydeDash
I was playing Raijin Raiden last night and doing this exact strategy! Good stuff man.

Staggering B1 when up close is essential. B1, B12, B1 Throw, B14, and B1 low staff. I'll definitely have to learn the corner combo cause I just do B31 db2 lmao

Also I like to use F4 a lot as well since it's -4 on block (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong). Do naked F4 and then F4 into low staff. And of course F4 as a great whiff punisher. F4 ex low staff is like 200 damage which is a pretty good bit.

@kabelfritz

If you can get the life lead, I don't think it matters if they outzone you, you still make them come to you unless they have a ground projectile. DB4 while extremely unsafe hits from like almost 3/4 the screen away. Even if they block it, it's -22 I think, from half the screen away. Not sure who all can punish that.

I was doing rather well vs a kano last night and his knives/kano ball are quite a bit faster than raiden's projectiles. Even caught his kano ball on a read with db2 once... it didn't pull him in but basically stopped his ball and flopped him in front of me.
 
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Hitoshura

Head Cage
can you please not judge the "tier" by frame data? raiden has no pressure, that is true. he also is not supposed to, he is a punisher with great range and movement. the character works, no matter how bad the frame data is. just dont try to rushdown.
Exactly.

Knowledge of frame data is essential; however, a lot of players rely on it as though it's a religious text. Not all characters are built the same.
 

DDutchguy

Stand 4'ing airplanes out of the sky
So u think Rajin variation is worth it?
I'm unsure. Raiden's combo damage is severely reduced compared to Thunder Wave, but discharge is likely be the best panic button in the game considering you can make it safe and it's relatively easy to set up again. However, the loss of teleport for two specials that range from bad (area-of-effect staff move) to mediocre (low special) might be the bigger downside.
 
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DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
Not sure what you mean about df2? Since it's more negative than -13. I assume you mean db2 (summon lightning)? Either way, great write up :D
It's the move where he slams the staff in the ground. If you do a D4 into it, it pushes them back quite a distance making it pseudo safe.
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
I'm unsure. Raiden's combo damage is severely reduced compared to Thunder Wave, but discharge is likely be the best panic button in the game considering you can make it safe and it's relatively easy to set up again. However, the loss of teleport for two specials that range from bad (area-of-effect staff move) to mediocre (low special) might be the bigger downside.
I don’t see myself going to try Raijin since I’m enjoying Thunder Wave too much.
 
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Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
Raiden is so bad. He literally gets punished for doing b31~stormcell on HIT if the opponent breaksaway. I'm done with this trash character
Doesn’t Scorpion get punished too when you breakaway when he’s using spear? If you don’t want people to breakaway just punish with 121, or if they are waiting for storm cell to breakaway use b31 superman into corner. I don’t get how Raiden is bad. Sure he suffers from breakwater since storm cell always brings opponents airborne, doesn’t mean he’s trash though
 

DragonofDadashov24

Let’s see whose fire burns hotter
Raiden is so bad. He literally gets punished for doing b31~stormcell on HIT if the opponent breaksaway. I'm done with this trash character
Every character gets punished on hit when breakaway is used. My Liu Kang got but fucked like that once. Scorpion is dead wheb that happens to him so I wouldn’t blame Raiden but the breakaway system itself. It looks like it compensates lack of breakers while standing
 

f24

Don't F*** with a God
Doesn’t Scorpion get punished too when you breakaway when he’s using spear? If you don’t want people to breakaway just punish with 121, or if they are waiting for storm cell to breakaway use b31 superman into corner. I don’t get how Raiden is bad. Sure he suffers from breakwater since storm cell always brings opponents airborne, doesn’t mean he’s trash though
That’s because Raiden isn’t trash. I think Raiden is one of the most balanced characters in an NRS game we’ve ever seen. He’s so balanced that it hurts him, just a little bit because he doesn’t have any stupid shit.

Yeah, there are a few things I’d like improved - better krushing blow triggers (B2 KB is too reachable, electric fly KB never happens, last hit of storm cell a mid) - but I think he’s pretty much fine as is. Peopel are just whining about him not being dummy good,