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Liu Kang balance/change wishlist

MURK

Noob
Universal:

Imo allow his high fireballs to not whiff up close against characters crouch blocking. It should be treated the same as if it was being used long range.

Keep f2 the way it is. If you want an overhead, start utilizing the quick jump options in your pressure.

Just a wish but if they do change f4 (I assume increase the start up), make it a low. It has decent range but not the best range so changing it to a low wouldn't change the defensive gameplan against kang at all. Blocking low against kang is a normal method. Honestly tho, I don't think f4 should be touched at all.

1,2 no longer whiffs on females but as a fair trade off, make it plus 2 or plus 1 on block so that way it isn't used mindlessly. Similar to his d3 in mkx. Will liu go for the non jailing string after or a guaranteed d1? Simple mathematics

Allow flying kick to go over low projectiles and low normals

Fix hitbox issues of course

Tele Variation:

Allow all options of teleport to count towards a combo instead of just the high option

Fix the whiffing of his teleports overhead option. I've noticed that sometimes when the overhead option is used, liu ends up appearing directly behind the opponent even if they don't move.

Allow his teleport overhead to catch opponents neutral jumping

This is a wishful buff but allow his flame buff cancel to combo after it is canceled on hit. Similar to flame fist/dualist back in mkx

Low fireball variation:

First hit of his shaolin stance, 2 start out as an overhead or make it minus 7 on block if the first hit is not changed to an overhead

Allow liu to safely cancel OUT of his shaolin stance without getting punished for it since we're spending defensive meter to do it.

A wishful buff but give his shaolin stance, 2 a mb option to launch for more combo potential


Imo other than these changes and wishful buffs, liu is fine
 

Wrubez

The Flow Instructor
Universal:

Imo allow his high fireballs to not whiff up close against characters crouch blocking. It should be treated the same as if it was being used long range.

Keep f2 the way it is. If you want an overhead, start utilizing the quick jump options in your pressure.

Just a wish but if they do change f4 (I assume increase the start up), make it a low. It has decent range but not the best range so changing it to a low wouldn't change the defensive gameplan against kang at all. Blocking low against kang is a normal method. Honestly tho, I don't think f4 should be touched at all.

1,2 no longer whiffs on females but as a fair trade off, make it plus 2 or plus 1 on block so that way it isn't used mindlessly. Similar to his d3 in mkx. Will liu go for the non jailing string after or a guaranteed d1? Simple mathematics

Allow flying kick to go over low projectiles and low normals

Fix hitbox issues of course

Tele Variation:

Allow all options of teleport to count towards a combo instead of just the high option

Fix the whiffing of his teleports overhead option. I've noticed that sometimes when the overhead option is used, liu ends up appearing directly behind the opponent even if they don't move.

Allow his teleport overhead to catch opponents neutral jumping

This is a wishful buff but allow his flame buff cancel to combo after it is canceled on hit. Similar to flame fist/dualist back in mkx

Low fireball variation:

First hit of his shaolin stance, 2 start out as an overhead or make it minus 7 on block if the first hit is not changed to an overhead

Allow liu to safely cancel OUT of his shaolin stance without getting punished for it since we're spending defensive meter to do it.

A wishful buff but give his shaolin stance, 2 a mb option to launch for more combo potential


Imo other than these changes and wishful buffs, liu is fine
I actually like a lot of these. Especially the MB option with Shaolin Stance 2 for combo potential. I feel like Liu is a little too vanilla right now and could really use a metered launcher. Especially since F3333 is really your only combo opener for real damage. No one uses F2...

...Which brings me to my counter point...F2 I recommended become an overhead in my last post but as a compromise, either make the startup faster or make it an advancing mid. It is straight butt cheeks right now and has almost no utility save for flashy combo extension (with hella damage scaling..more on that in a second) or a gimmicky anti air in the corner.

If F2 being an overhead would be too OP, then it needs to do slightly more damage on top of the suggestions above. Scaling should at least be adjusted at a minimum.

Really like your Shaolin Stance ideas. I think it’s a no brainer that Cancelling should not be so negative. Jacqui can cancel her stings at will but Liu has a gimmick cancel? Math doesn’t add up there. Let us be neutral if it’s gonna cost us a bar. Also reiterating having a MB launcher. Would be really cool do to a combo with F43 DD1(2mb) etc etc

And yes for the love of god leave F4 alone. If the changes above are implemented then MAYBE increase the start up by like ONE frame. Dude has no advancing attacks otherwise and even F4 doesn’t come close to the range of a lot of characters (looking at you Sonya, Geras, Kabal, etc)
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
Premium Supporter
If I were to give Liu Kang a score out of 100, I'd give him an 85. And that's where I wish everyone could be. In that 75-90 range. Don't buff him. He's a solid character with some flaws. And that's what everyone should be at the end of the day. Just fix any hitbox issues.
 

BuffRaiden

Nerf Erron's F4 Already
F4 ought to be 11 frames to give the b1 actual utility. B1 is just a fake out tool right now. He’s a boring character to play and even more boring to play against. I’d like f3 or f2 to be reworked so we’d actually see something other than the linear f4 gameplay we typically see.

But that’s problem with most of these top characters. Very one dimensional.

Although I don’t need think Liu Kang is top, injustice 2 was Justin so much more creative with character design and combo routes.
 

Wrubez

The Flow Instructor
F4 ought to be 11 frames to give the b1 actual utility. B1 is just a fake out tool right now. He’s a boring character to play and even more boring to play against. I’d like f3 or f2 to be reworked so we’d actually see something other than the linear f4 gameplay we typically see.

But that’s problem with most of these top characters. Very one dimensional.

Although I don’t need think Liu Kang is top, injustice 2 was Justin so much more creative with character design and combo routes.
While I don’t disagree (except for nerfing F4), I think the overall theme here is adjustment for variety. Variety keeps us coming back for more. MKX was too rush down focused but I would be lying if I said I didn’t enjoy finding new tech and combo routes because there were SO many.

A lot of folks say that if we just opened up allowing custom characters, a lot of issues would be resolved. Well, that may be true for some of the cast...not so much for Liu.

His nunchaku stance stinks and has no pressure utility, Shaolin vanish is a complete joke, flame buff is cool for damage increase but offers no other variety, and teleport would be so much cooler if it had extension properties like meter burning into a launcher or something (thinking like MKX smoke’s teleport launcher).

The command grab is prob the only non-tourney ability that would be viable...but for pressuring your opponent more than anything. Gives you a touch more variety but could see it being stale at the end of the day.

I get that the meta is focused on neutral and footsies at the expense of long ass combos but some chars (like Liu) become stale fast.

I think it would be a good idea for NRS to review the cast as a whole and decide on what would be the best compromise for balancing variety and the neutral meta. Much, much easier said than done. I’m all for them taking their time to release a fully tested balance patch though if they revisit some aspects mentioned above.

In lieu of a balance patch being released sooner than later - a patch to fix whiffing and hurtbox needs to be released ASAP as that is more of a bug than balance.
 

gam224

The world's least hype player
Premium Supporter
Make flying kick a mid so wu shi doesn’t get shafted. Make his buff in wu shi 2in1 cancellable like flame fist in mkx. 2nd hit of air fireball should get a larger hitbox due to inconsistency. Make energy parry faster. Make it so that Liu only gets access to one kB throw per match.
 

gam224

The world's least hype player
Premium Supporter
Re work Shaolin vanish into being punishable off all options, remove overhead option and repurpose the animation for an ex teleport. The teleport now is just kinda dumb.
 

Lightaero

Liu Kang/Noob Saibot
F2 needs a change, and I still think making it an overhead - even with a hard knockdown instead of a pop up - is the best option. Both in order to make F2 a move people will actually use, and to give Liu Kang the true overhead he needs.

Even if you were to keep the range short, like it is currently, but change it to function similarly to his B2 from MKX would make a huge difference. It should be a move you use to punish people who only block low during your pressure, but still do a reasonable amount of damage and be unsafe enough to require some thought to go into when it's used. Right now there's almost no reason to stand block against Liu Kang, and when you need to you can see it coming from a mile away.

Saying Liu Kang doesnt need an overhead because you can use short hop instead is a ridiculous argument, especially when the entire cast has short hop and jump in overheads. We're discussing a character who's only other overhead option is from a stance that, not only are you forced to commit to, but if you're not getting poked out of it instantly you're going to be punished even if you cancel it by anyone who knows the matchup.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
He has a fucked up hurtbox that makes several characters wiff while he is crouched and crouch blocking, that needs to be fixed. And fix his hitbox issues.
 

gam224

The world's least hype player
Premium Supporter
If we’re giving Liu Kang an overhead it should be a variation / selectable move. I think it would be cool if he got his old mkx back 2 as a variation move that would replace his current back 2.
 

Frenzy

Noob
I’d say fix his whiffing. Make f2 do more damage and have less scaling so it becomes worth doing in combos. I’d like to see either b3 become -5 or b34 have a slightly smaller (but still flawless blockable) gap. Right now characters with 6f pokes can punish b3 stagger and interrupt the gap. For Luohan Quan, I’d like the shaolin stance cancel to be less negative. If he’s going to use a bar to come out of the stance I think it should be slightly plus, neutral, or slightly negative when he uses certain strings (f333, b2,123, and b124 would probably be the strings he’d cancel from). This would also give him the “variety” people want, because it would make him slightly less reliant on f43. For Wu Shi Legend, I’d like energy parry to be faster because it kind of sucks the way it is now. I’d also like Wu Shi Legend to have a hitbox improvement on the overhead and high teleports. At the very least the overhead should get a better hitbox. As his teleport is now, you can neutral jump every option.
 
Re work Shaolin vanish into being punishable off all options, remove overhead option and repurpose the animation for an ex teleport. The teleport now is just kinda dumb.
lol? Asking nerfs for a mid-high mid tier character and asking for the shit variation to get nerfed?
 

gam224

The world's least hype player
Premium Supporter
lol? Asking nerfs for a mid-high mid tier character and asking for the shit variation to get nerfed?
Changed not nerfed. I think a teleport should be a move to capitalize off an opponents projectile/ movement. It shouldn’t be a mix up tool. The variation would become so much better if you could get a gull combo for a read.
 
He is perfectly fine. And a lot of people underestimate him. For me he is definitely top tier.
He have so much easy KB, that he can procs and his FB is so damn powerful. He just need to connect once and do FB and its easy 400+ dmg.
Just watch how many sets ninjakilla is winning with low hp, opponent is like 35-40% hp, and ninjakilla just connect + fb and its game over.
He is very good at zoning too. We see he is better at zoning than Cassie Cage, and he can punish her low shots with a lot of dmg.
We see him beat Frost at zoning too. The most important thing is he is not onehit wonder he is mixed character, that doesnt have much weakness.
I expect a lot of people start using it after CEO and that 2 Liu Kang players land in that top 8. Only character that have 2 player in top 8, thats speak for itself.
Games is always balanced at Pros level.
 
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asmith

Noob
Wu Shi variation suffers from F43. I would change F43 block advantage from -7 to -6. There are characters who can poke Wu Shi after F43 without any hesitation. (Subzero, geras...) If Wu Shi had a mid special move that would also do the trick. Currently if the TP is not on, Wu Shi has no answer after F43.

Also the hitbox of MB-bf1 is ridiculous. If it is a high, then let it be high. What is it with all the whiffs. :(
 

GLoRToR

If you are not having fun doing something, stop it
Wu Shi variation suffers from F43. I would change F43 block advantage from -7 to -6. There are characters who can poke Wu Shi after F43 without any hesitation. (Subzero, geras...) If Wu Shi had a mid special move that would also do the trick. Currently if the TP is not on, Wu Shi has no answer after F43.

Also the hitbox of MB-bf1 is ridiculous. If it is a high, then let it be high. What is it with all the whiffs. :(
Poking out of pressure is a universal design. If anything, it should be -8 so characters with 7f d1 can also poke out.
 

colby4898

Special Forces Sonya Up-player
I would just b13 so the 3 has a further reach, it's annoying landing a perfectly spaced b1 only to have the 3 white.

Preferably also wither make the 3 a mid or remove the gap, but mostly just the range
 

Moms4lif3

Bruh.
He definitely needs NO buffs whatsoever.

Hitbox issues should be addressed for the whole roster, so his hitboxes should be adjusted accordingly if needed. IF needed:

Some of his kicks whiff on crouching opponents if he is not 100% correctly spaced or they can be low-profiled if correctly timed. I don’t see a problem here though in general, the hitboxes are mid but do not cover the whole ground because the legs do not touch the opponent. They DO touch opponents that are airborne easily tho, so it makes up for it by having a high vertical reach.

At the moment I don’t really see anything that should be changed about Liu Kang. He is not top tier but I think he is where this games balance should be at. He has a lot of good stuff but also some drawbacks, that’s how balancing should work.