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Let's agree on what GL needs in the patch

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
If someone legitimately calls Green Lantern top 5 they need to play against Batman, Atrocitud, Aquaman, Black Adam and Catwoman more. I don't think anyone is calling GL top 5, just not in need of any buffs in my ooinion because he is already good without noticeable weaknesses.
well now i'm going to exclusively call Atrocitus Atrocitud
 

Cashual

PSN: Cansuela
Every wakeup has the ability to be baited/read so do me a favor stop asking for his already fine wakeup to be buffed, okay? You don't see me asking for Red Hood's abysmal wakeups to be buffed do you? And his are 10000x worse than GL's, so calm down your wakeup is fine just be smart about it. If Lantern's might has some legit whiffing issues then yes that should be fixed. His damage is on the lower/mid tier side of things which when you consider he toolset, it fine. It's not like he's hitting like Dr. Fate out here. 2231 is something I could see the plus frames on being changed or maybe make his D1 faster. MB Wall shouldn't be plus, we don't want Possessed 2.0 walking around here. Sure, give him less recovery on his dashes, i dont care.
I agree with almost all of what you said outside of your claim that his damage is rightfully so low. I don't really think that's true. It's not like he has average or just slightly below average damage, he is likely the 3rd weakest character in the game in that regard.

For that to be fair (imo) he'd have to do something in the game that almost no other character can do or be significantly better in some key area than the rest of the cast. I just don't see where that's the case. I mean....b1 is amazing. It's a far reaching, fast low that is hit confirmable and does work as a whiff punisher, trip guard, all that. But it's not like GL is guaranteed to open you up time and time again like the very best mix characters.

He's not keeping really anyone full screen all day with oppressive zoning either.

Green lantern has some good setup potential, has two good jump attacks, some above average zoning and space control, a great d2, fast walk speed, safety, and a good midrange neutral. I think he's very solid and I love playing with him and almost never feel hopeless in a MU and frankly I'm not good enough to worry too much about tiers and match ups anyway. That said, I don't understand whereas GL is so good in this game that to compensate he should have almost the literal worst damage output in the game. Hell even if he has the worst output in the game I don't think the gap from most damaging to least should be so large. Hell I'd be happy if the upper half most damaging characters simply got a damage nerf overall. I just feel like I have to open someone up a hell of a lot more than they me to win.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
No reason it should lose to batman's double jump. No I'm not gonna let it go when my move fundamentally does not work properly lol. It's been relegated to a combo extension only and that just feels uninspired.

Take your negativity elsewhere, this is a discussion, not whining.
No, the negativity belongs because, like most threads concerning what a character "needs," it's a non starter that ignores a character's strengths and overall addition to the economy of the game in favor of fitting the character to a player's personal grievances that should have no bearing on balance in the game.

Like this Lantern's Might thing: we have hyperbole to the level of "my move fundamentally does not work properly." What in God's holy name does this even mean? Does the move cause GL to t-pose and crash the game? Do interactibles stop working if Lantern's Might is used? These would be "fundamental" issues.

What I think is happening is that every time the move does not connect, which is almost always an error in the player's assumption of where the move hits, then that for some reason is shuffled into the category of "lol stupid move isn't even working." And that's fine for the recesses of your mind at 2 AM during a 1 and done ranked match, but it doesn't hold up when under serious consideration as a "problem" for GL.

Go to training mode, and test out a bunch of scenarios of where it hits, and where it doesn't. Old school, I know, but we don't have a hitbox viewer so them's the bricks. It's pretty clear after doing that that the move hits in a sort of rectangular region starting from the middle of Lantern's head/face to probably somewhere close to the bottom of the screen. The max extension is just a little beyond his arm, and nothing more. The move also has 4 active frames, so clearly if it's going to be used beyond combos, there's a precision in the use. Unfair? Maybe, compared to top tier derp, but in no way does this move strike me as "broken" or having "hitbox issues." It's just maybe...not as good as IGAU? And maybe they kept the longer range to his trait to make it stand out? Fuudo for thought.

We all know the Fred Marvel schtick by now: for some inane reason, he has decided that he is this great, top level player held down only by his character choice, and that the character should justify the way he plays in the way that he wants. Again, this is all well and good in your head, removed far away from scrutiny, but he has decided not to do that.

As such, threads like this pop up, and it simply exists as a hole where good discussion goes to die because hardly anyone is looking at balance from the perspective of what could actually be beneficial for the game. I'll quote Keits on this subject:

"If winning with your character is fun, then the best 'balance' for you is your hard matchups to get nerfed, & you get buffs. This is, as i said, a selfish view of the product. A game designer cannot think this way."

The discussion will only get better once people get off the train of "this is WHAT'S WRONG WITH GL" and start thinking about where he plays in the overall economy of the game. I very much doubt that time will come to pass.
 

Fred Marvel

It's actually Freddy Marvel
So there's a pretty big consensus that lanterns might needs to be fixed and some of you seem to agree 2231 should be +2? Just trying to be accurate.
I'm not in this thread to argue with anyone I just want us all to come to an agreement on the fixes he needs.

Does no one else really think he should do a little more damage?

Also nerfing the top tier won't jump him up, it didn't in the last game. Other characters will be the new top tier and just less broken hopefully. And like I said I don't want him to be like the top 8 (you know who they are) I want him to be solid and viable like Harley or scarecrow or idk a character who doesn't need buffs but doesn't dominate
 

Fred Marvel

It's actually Freddy Marvel
ANd again this thread is for GL players not people who have never mained him and think he's good. I've played the character for over 4 years almost exclusively at a mid-high level so my opinions don't come from nowhere. @JDM had some great input in this thread I'd like to see more posts like that
 
ANd again this thread is for GL players not people who have never mained him and think he's good. I've played the character for over 4 years almost exclusively at a mid-high level so my opinions don't come from nowhere. @JDM had some great input in this thread I'd like to see more posts like that
2231 should be plus 2 there is no reason it sholdnt considering his options after a d1 check aren't even that great. I really don't think he needs a damage buff since he has such great mix potential on knockdown but since other characters have just as good mix and bonkers damage it does feel pretty shit for GL. A larger vertical hitbox on lanterns might would be nice but wouldn't change him much. I'm not sure what else they could do to help GL outside of changing his basekit and giving him back minigun
 

JDM

Warrior
No, the negativity belongs because, like most threads concerning what a character "needs," it's a non starter that ignores a character's strengths and overall addition to the economy of the game in favor of fitting the character to a player's personal grievances that should have no bearing on balance in the game.

Like this Lantern's Might thing: we have hyperbole to the level of "my move fundamentally does not work properly." What in God's holy name does this even mean? Does the move cause GL to t-pose and crash the game? Do interactibles stop working if Lantern's Might is used? These would be "fundamental" issues.

What I think is happening is that every time the move does not connect, which is almost always an error in the player's assumption of where the move hits, then that for some reason is shuffled into the category of "lol stupid move isn't even working." And that's fine for the recesses of your mind at 2 AM during a 1 and done ranked match, but it doesn't hold up when under serious consideration as a "problem" for GL.

Go to training mode, and test out a bunch of scenarios of where it hits, and where it doesn't. Old school, I know, but we don't have a hitbox viewer so them's the bricks. It's pretty clear after doing that that the move hits in a sort of rectangular region starting from the middle of Lantern's head/face to probably somewhere close to the bottom of the screen. The max extension is just a little beyond his arm, and nothing more. The move also has 4 active frames, so clearly if it's going to be used beyond combos, there's a precision in the use. Unfair? Maybe, compared to top tier derp, but in no way does this move strike me as "broken" or having "hitbox issues." It's just maybe...not as good as IGAU? And maybe they kept the longer range to his trait to make it stand out? Fuudo for thought.

We all know the Fred Marvel schtick by now: for some inane reason, he has decided that he is this great, top level player held down only by his character choice, and that the character should justify the way he plays in the way that he wants. Again, this is all well and good in your head, removed far away from scrutiny, but he has decided not to do that.

As such, threads like this pop up, and it simply exists as a hole where good discussion goes to die because hardly anyone is looking at balance from the perspective of what could actually be beneficial for the game. I'll quote Keits on this subject:

"If winning with your character is fun, then the best 'balance' for you is your hard matchups to get nerfed, & you get buffs. This is, as i said, a selfish view of the product. A game designer cannot think this way."

The discussion will only get better once people get off the train of "this is WHAT'S WRONG WITH GL" and start thinking about where he plays in the overall economy of the game. I very much doubt that time will come to pass.
It is supposed to be a space control anti-air. It does not catch people sometimes in areas it should. In combos it has massive range but in the neutral it's neutered and doesn't work properly. When an anti-air doesn't work as an anti-air that's a fundamental problem with the move. If It's relegated to a combo extension move 100 percent that's dumb and uninspired. Like I said before.

GL should excel on space control. His zoning is not good enough to warrant his current playstyle imo. His damage is weak, his zone control isn't very good, and a better LM would help with that. With a properly working LM, slightly better damage and a +2 2231 (or 6f d1 I guess) he'd be perfect.

Now after saying all that, he's still my main and probably my best or second best character since I click with him so well. But he has clear problems that could and should be helped. And yes I know Fred Marvel's schtick. But just because he said something doesn't mean it's instantly wrong lol.

And btw people no one is saying he's top 5 anymore. They were initially and uplaying him hard like they did in Injustice 1. That stigma seems to carry over to "he doesn't need buffs are you crazy lolol" which is what we're getting now. I don't think he's in dire need of buffs, but those 3 (damage, +2231, LM hitbox fix) are the 3 I would go with. And like DarksydeDash said LM whiffs in certain combos too. It's fucked up.
 

Icefyre

Shadows
Right, so all of you people with perfectly valid reasoning as to why this character doesn't need lots of buffs need to just stay out. This public thread isn't for your viewing pleasure. Fred Marvel only wants to see posts that want GL buffed, because that's obviously exactly what he needs, and nothing else. Fuck all you haterz, this is Fred's house.
 

JDM

Warrior
Right, so all of you people with perfectly valid reasoning as to why this character doesn't need lots of buffs need to just stay out. This public thread isn't for your viewing pleasure. Fred Marvel only wants to see posts that want GL buffed, because that's obviously exactly what he needs, and nothing else. Fuck all you haterz, this is Fred's house.
ok man I'm gonna go in the WW thread and tell people that all their buffs are ridiculous and they need to git gud. brb

it's just a weird thing to do. Obviously GL mains are more experienced and nuanced with their character to understand what the shortcomings of the character are. Sometimes that results in people underselling their character but when there's a general consensus among most of them it's probablyyyy right.
 

Fred Marvel

It's actually Freddy Marvel
THe reason I said people who don't think he needs buffs should leave the thread is because all you guys are gonna do is start arguments and surprise that's exactly what happened. I don't mind people disagreeing with me it happens very often as you know, but I don't want to have to deal with people bashing me for being right when I'm trying to get my character fixed.

If someone could constructively explain to my why GL is viable and would be overpowered with any buffs I'd be open to listen, but no one has done it everyone has just disagreed or been straight up insulting. I also am 100% certain he needs some changes and fixes
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
but I don't want to have to deal with people bashing me for being right when I'm trying to get my character fixed.
If someone could constructively explain to my why GL is viable and would be overpowered with any buffs I'd be open to listen, but no one has done it everyone has just disagreed or been straight up insulting.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
It is supposed to be a space control anti-air.
Is that what it's really supposed to be? They clearly intended it not to be the crazy space control move it was in IGAU. I'm not telling you that it having a better vertical hitbox or even just a better general one would be OP or anything but I feel like a lot of legacy communities, especially GL and WW, are too worried about what was in IGAU instead of what is in INJ2. He's just not the same character.
 

9_Lives

Kombatant
GL might not even be top 15 imo but I don't understand buffing him if like 7-8 characters are getting nerfed. Do we want a balanced game or for GL/Supergirl to switch spots with Black Adam/Catwoman?
This post from start to finish is like exactly how I feel.
 

Meep8345

Apprentice
THe reason I said people who don't think he needs buffs should leave the thread is because all you guys are gonna do is start arguments and surprise that's exactly what happened. I don't mind people disagreeing with me it happens very often as you know, but I don't want to have to deal with people bashing me for being right when I'm trying to get my character fixed.

If someone could constructively explain to my why GL is viable and would be overpowered with any buffs I'd be open to listen, but no one has done it everyone has just disagreed or been straight up insulting. I also am 100% certain he needs some changes and fixes
So we are just supposed to agree?
 

Fred Marvel

It's actually Freddy Marvel
GL might not even be top 15 imo but I don't understand buffing him if like 7-8 characters are getting nerfed. Do we want a balanced game or for GL/Supergirl to switch spots with Black Adam/Catwoman?
youre assuming the top tiers are going to me made into mid tiers and they wont. even if the top tiers are nerfed he wont be top tier if he stays this way. he wont be close he will still lose to most of the characters who beat him now like fate and cyborg and darkseid, even with the buffs i suggested i didnt give him anything to help him get past zoning which is always his biggest issue so he will be fair.
supergirl literallty only needs better damage and she would be viable af