Match-up Discussion Kratos Matchup Discussion Thread

[Alien Substance]

This thread was created to discuss Kratos' matchups, and perhaps find ways to make his bad MUs a little better for him. Because Kratos is Banned-Tier (banned in all tournaments), this thread is of no use to any of you tournament-goers. Unless of course, you're planning on using Kratos in after-tourney casual matches for teh lulz!

When you discuss or list what you think the MUs are, please do so in alphabetical order. They should be listed in either whole numbers or .5 notations.

The current match-up chart for Kratos is as follows:
5-5 vs Baraka
6-4 vs Cyber Sub-Zero
6-4 vs Cyber Cyrax
3-7 vs Ermac
3-7 vs Freddy Krueger
4-6 vs Human Cyrax
5-5 vs Jade
4-6 vs Jax
6-4 vs Johnny Cage
4-6 vs Kabal
7-3 vs Kano
2-8 vs Kenshi
4-6 vs Kitana
4-6 vs Kung Lao
3-7 vs Liu Kang
6-4 vs Mileena
5-5 vs Nightwolf
6-4 vs Noob Saibot
6-4 vs Quan Chi
4-6 vs Raiden
6-4 vs Rain
4-6 vs Reptile
5-5 vs Scorpion
4-6 vs Sektor
6-4 vs Shang Tsung
6-4 vs Sheeva
5-5 vs Sindel
4-6 vs Skarlet
3-7 vs Smoke
4-6 vs Sonya Blade
4-6 vs Stryker
4-6 vs Sub-Zero


148 match-up points in total.

Agree or disagree? Discuss! Now.

Thanks to the Match-up Discussion threads by Konqrr for inspiring me to create this thread.

Edit: The paragraph below was made on September 6th, 2012.
One match-up that I think is quite interesting is the Kabal MU. In the previous MU thread I made before the Server Drop and Data Loss Event occured, I had the Kabal MU listed at 3-7 with the odds towards Kabal. But during the downtime, I had the oppurtunity to play some good Kabals, and now I'm doubting it really is a 3-7; it feels more like a 4-6, maybe even a possible 5-5, but that is unlikely.

 

[Squeaker101]

I'm legitimately interested in this thread, I wanna hear what the community thinks of him aside from "Lol."

Alien Substance - What are your thoughts on the Liu MU? I've probably asked you already, but (forgive me) I forgot. I usually refer to the post, but...

 

[DragonPick]

My matchup experience against Kabal with Kratos is slim, but I doubt it's a 5-5. Does the projectile version of the Golden fleece recover in time for Kratos to block or Golden Fleece the followup from Kabal after an air gas blast? I wish i could test it now, but I can't until later tonight.

 

[Squeaker101]

My matchup experience against Kabal with Kratos is slim, but I doubt it's a 5-5. Does the projectile version of the Golden fleece recover in time for Kratos to block or Golden Fleece the followup from Kabal after an air gas blast? I wish i could test it now, but I can't until later tonight.

Probably not, he's recovery is ridiculous.

Though you should wait for Alien Substance to post, as I'm no Kratos main.

 

[Alien Substance]

I'm legitimately interested in this thread, I wanna hear what the community thinks of him aside from "Lol."

Alien Substance - What are your thoughts on the Liu MU? I've probably asked you already, but (forgive me) I forgot. I usually refer to the post, but...

It is terrible for Kratos, worse than Kung Lao. B+3,2,1 is low-hitting, goes through the Golden Fleece, and can carry to the corner, where Kratos is at a great disadvantage on the recieving side. At fullscreen and probably close to fullscreen, Liu Kang's High Fireballs recover in time for Liu to Dragon Kick Kratos out of his Projectile Parry before he can even launch it. LFBs likely recover in a good time from fullscreen only.

Liu Kang can essentially win, using only B+3,2,1s, HFBs, LFBs, iaFBs, and Dragon Kicks. If the Liu player knows how to zone, and plays a patient-style Kang, then Kratos can prepare to escape the Underworld/Netherrealm. I think Kratos is going to have to play much more patient than he usually has to in this MU.

Against one that especially knows his B+3,2,1s, Kratos is going to have a bad time.

My matchup experience against Kabal with Kratos is slim, but I doubt it's a 5-5. Does the projectile version of the Golden fleece recover in time for Kratos to block or Golden Fleece the followup from Kabal after an air gas blast? I wish i could test it now, but I can't until later tonight.

Hmmmm..........perhaps. From fullscreen, I'm sure Kratos can recover in time to block a Nomad Rush. If the Nomad Rush is done really soon at fullscreen, Kabal's Armor might wear off in time for the Projectile to hit. I'm not sure of it from closer than fullscreen, but I think Kratos will get hit by a Nomad Rush from about jump distance away before Kratos can launch the projectile. This is all speculation of course, this has to be tested. If Kratos is vulnerable from around jump distance away, then this could put a dent in Kratos' game plan against Kabal.

 

[Squeaker101]

It is terrible for Kratos, worse than Kung Lao. B+3,2,1 is low-hitting, goes through the Golden Fleece, and can carry to the corner, where Kratos is at a great disadvantage on the recieving side. At fullscreen and probably close to fullscreen, Liu Kang's High Fireballs recover in time for Liu to Dragon Kick Kratos out of his Projectile Parry before he can even launch it. LFBs likely recover in a good time from fullscreen only.

Liu Kang can essentially win, using only B+3,2,1s, HFBs, LFBs, iaFBs, and Dragon Kicks. If the Liu player knows how to zone, and plays a patient-style Kang, then Kratos can prepare to escape the Underworld/Netherrealm. I think Kratos is going to have to play much more patient than he usually has to in this MU.

Against one that especially knows his B+3,2,1s, Kratos is going to have a bad time.

I don't know, I've had b312 Parried before. o.o I've also learned to respect Kratos' counter-zoning game, as I've fell from it before. You'd be surprised at how much Liu loses when he can't zone. It's ~50% of his gameplay. If Kratos can effectively stop b312 with his Parry, I think it'd be easier. We should try grind this MU sometime, get a rough idea of how it is.

Do you know the size of his hitbox? It could determine some MU's. (Kabal is the only one I can think of atm)

 

[Alien Substance]

I don't know, I've had b312 Parried before. o.o I've also learned to respect Kratos' counter-zoning game, as I've fell from it before. You'd be surprised at how much Liu loses when he can't zone. It's ~50% of his gameplay. If Kratos can effectively stop b312 with his Parry, I think it'd be easier. We should try grind this MU sometime, get a rough idea of how it is.

Do you know the size of his hitbox? It could determine some MU's. (Kabal is the only one I can think of atm)

Probably something to do with a weird hitbox on the B+3.
>Unable to zone as Liu
I've felt that pain with him before.
>Grind the MU
That'd be swelI.
>Hurtbox
I don't know Kratos' hurtbox size. But I know it is a strange one: Kratos is a shrimp compared to the other MK fighters, Kratos hunches down in his stance, and the second hit of the 3 in Johnny Cage's F+3,3,B+3 string whiffs on standing block.

 

[Skitzo]

Kratos beats JC 6-4?

 

[Squeaker101]

>Hurtbox
I don't know Kratos' hurtbox size. But I know it is a strange one: Kratos is a shrimp compared to the other MK fighters, Kratos hunches down in his stance, and the second hit of the 3 in Johnny Cage's F+3,3,B+3 string whiffs on standing block.

FYI: Hurtbox is when you're getting juggled. (I could be wrong, but it's what I read somewhere) Again, I guess we'll have to grind it out and see. : D

Kratos beats JC 6-4?

Kratos top 5.

 

[Alien Substance]

Kratos beats JC 6-4?

Eeyup.

>Zoning
Apollo's Bow causes 12% damage if both arrows hit, Kratos can easily trade projectiles with Cage. Kratos can Golden Fleece JC's Forceballs if he doesn't want to take the 8% damage. When performing an Eclipse Kick on reaction to Apollo's Bow from fullscreen, the double arrows have a good chance of hitting Cage out of his Armor. Johnny has to wait a very short moment before executing an Eclipse Kick.

>Close-Kombat
Johnny has to be careful of getting Parried here; one mistake in blockstring pressure could lead to recieving around 44% damage. Sure Johnny can mix it up with low-pokes, but all Kratos has to do is pick up on the poking patterns during pressure and he is all set to deal massive damage. Cage has to be unpredictable in his low-poke mixups, and he needs to play smart and be extra careful on the pressuring to win. Additionally, Kratos can escape quickly through rapid backwards Hermes Dash Cancels.
----------

@Squeaker101
Hitbox/Hurtbox meanings are confusing.

 

[Roko1985]

One matchup that I think is quite interesting is the Kabal MU. In the previous MU thread I made before the Server Drop and Data Loss Event occured, I had the Kabal MU listed at 3-7 with the odds towards Kabal. But during the downtime, I had the oppurtunity to play some good Kabals, and now I'm doubting it really is a 3-7; it feels more like a 4-6, maybe even a possible 5-5, but that is unlikely.

Roko1985
DragonPick
What do you two say?

I will say 5-5. Kabal can't realy zone him. The arrows takes much damage and they will hit all Kabals projegtiles ,cause they have slow recovering. If Kabal try to dash cancel presure, hi is risking to eat one parry into 40%+ damage. Just don't let Kabal build meter. Trade projegtiles if you can and when he starts to poke you with d3 or d4 you may get a jump in. You still need good reads. You can try to En dash cancel parry Kabals wake up options.

 

[Squeaker101]

@Squeaker101
Hitbox/Hurtbox meanings are confusing.

Why didn't the tag work?

Hitbox - When they're standing/crouching.

Hurtbox - The size of their hitbox when getting juggled. (unsure)

 

[Qwark28]

It is terrible for Kratos, worse than Kung Lao. B+3,2,1 is low-hitting, goes through the Golden Fleece, and can carry to the corner, where Kratos is at a great disadvantage on the recieving side. At fullscreen and probably close to fullscreen, Liu Kang's High Fireballs recover in time for Liu to Dragon Kick Kratos out of his Projectile Parry before he can even launch it. LFBs likely recover in a good time from fullscreen only.

Liu Kang can essentially win, using only B+3,2,1s, HFBs, LFBs, iaFBs, and Dragon Kicks. If the Liu player knows how to zone, and plays a patient-style Kang, then Kratos can prepare to escape the Underworld/Netherrealm. I think Kratos is going to have to play much more patient than he usually has to in this MU.

Against one that especially knows his B+3,2,1s, Kratos is going to have a bad time.


Hmmmm..........perhaps. From fullscreen, I'm sure Kratos can recover in time to block a Nomad Rush. If the Nomad Rush is done really soon at fullscreen, Kabal's Armor might wear off in time for the Projectile to hit. I'm not sure of it from closer than fullscreen, but I think Kratos will get hit by a Nomad Rush from about jump distance away before Kratos can launch the projectile. This is all speculation of course, this has to be tested. If Kratos is vulnerable from around jump distance away, then this could put a dent in Kratos' game plan against Kabal.

Edit: Actually, DragonPick, I have Somberness' Kratos Frame Data copy/pasted into a text file on my PC.

like i said before,the dragon kick is a read,if you can cancel the parry and block it you're punishing him for huge damage.

 

[Alien Substance]

I will say 5-5. Kabal can't realy zone him. The arrows takes much damage and they will hit all Kabals projegtiles ,cause they have slow recovering. If Kabal try to dash cancel presure, hi is risking to eat one parry into 40%+ damage. Just don't let Kabal build meter. Trade projegtiles if you can and when he starts to poke you with d3 or d4 you may get a jump in. You still need good reads. You can try to En dash cancel parry Kabals wake up options.

You bring up a good point. Fleece Projectiles and Apollo's Bow. Though Kratos cannot be constantly shooting arrows at Kabal, due to the Nomad Dash. But a delayed Apollo's Bow when Kabal is knocked down has a good chance of hitting Kabal out of Nomad Charge, as Kratos fires two arrows and Nomad Charge only has one hit of Armor.

NDC pressure is pretty dangerous for Kabal due to the Golden Fleece. Kabal is always going to get Meter when the fighters build Meter from recieving damage. Kratos has to manage his Meter more considerably than usual against Kabal; Breakers to escape damage or EX Specials to deal damage?

This is certainly an interesting MU that could actually be a 5-5. Quite exciting, really; nobody would've ever thought Kabal vs Kratos is a 5-5.

 

[CheapEddie]

Alien Substance definitely agree about JC MU. Its fucked up for Cage. Btw u forgot to say second hit of F33B3 whiffs on standing Kratos, so Spartan can blow up last hit of it with Fleece. Its 6-4 only bcz of Kratoses bad pokes\normals and weak safeties of specials.

 

[GLoRToR]

Jade destroys Kratos I'm afraid to say, guys.
- His deflect skill is washed off by En Armor
- His zoning is negated and he's free if he tries to deflect the counter zoning.
- His stun gets full combo punished and Jade's superior footsies shut him down.
Kratos has to work uphill in this fight, I'd say 6-4 advantage to Jade.

 

[Alien Substance]

Jade destroys Kratos I'm afraid to say, guys.
- His deflect skill is washed off by En Armor
- His zoning is negated and he's free if he tries to deflect the counter zoning.
- His stun gets full combo punished and Jade's superior footsies shut him down.
Kratos has to work uphill in this fight, I'd say 6-4 advantage to Jade.

Don't worry, no one is worried about this MU being in Jade's favor. ;_;

--Jade's Shadow Flash renders Kratos' zoning and counterzoning useless, that's a blow to Kratos' game.
-Head of Helios is full-combo punishable by every member of cast; it doesn't matter if Jade can full-combo punish it as well.
-Hmmmm.......while there are other fighters that have better footsies than Kratos, a good Jade player is one that places greater emphasis on his/her footsie game; no doubt the high importance on footsies for Jade puts another damper on Kratos.

You're probably right. I don't get enough Jade experience to have sufficient knowledge of the MU. But I would like to counter your argument with the fact a mistake from Jade can be punished for around 40% damage, and if the mistake was one where Kratos was able to score a JIP: 55%. Jade will need to be extra cautious on the Meter due to Kratos' Cyrax-like damage output. But with your points, it does seem like Jade has a slight advantage over Kratos, though I have some doubts....

Jade is as jumpable as Smoke if used right. I do agree that Kratos has a higher damage output by around 5% but let's not forget that even I punish for 34% online, somebody who is actually skilled and spot-on with their execution can do 40% with Jade. midscreen.
Jade hasn't been properly researched by any high level players to this day, everybody gave up on her when they saw that i14 is her fastest bnb starter and her 9 frame punish only leads to 18-20% at best.

I would leave this matchup as a 5-5, because 5-5 MUs are cool, but I do believe Jade needs more love, and however little this might do to give Jade more attention, I will change the matchup to be 4-6 with the odds towards Jade. You bring up quite good points here.

Maybe we should've voted more people into maining Jade in that "Let TYM choose your new main for 7 days" thread, particularly the more known skilled players.

 

[GLoRToR]

.

Jade is as jumpable as Smoke if used right. I do agree that Kratos has a higher damage output by around 5% but let's not forget that even I punish for 34% online, somebody who is actually skilled and spot-on with their execution can do 40% with Jade. midscreen.
Jade hasn't been properly researched by any high level players to this day, everybody gave up on her when they saw that i14 is her fastest bnb starter and her 9 frame punish only leads to 18-20% at best.

 

[Qwark28]

Don't worry, no one is worried about this MU being in Jade's favor. ;_;

--Jade's Shadow Flash renders Kratos' zoning and counterzoning useless, that's a big blow to Kratos' game.
-Head of Helios is full-combo punishable by every member of cast.
-Hmmmm.......while there are other fighters that have better footsies than Kratos, a good Jade player is one that places greater emphasis on his/her footsie game; no doubt the high importance on footsies for Jade puts a damper on Kratos.

You're probably right. I don't get enough Jade experience to have sufficient knowledge of the MU. But I would like to counter your argument with the fact a mistake from Jade can be punished for around %40 damage, and if the mistake was one where Kratos was able to score a JIP: 55%. Jade will need to be extra cautious on the Meter due to Kratos' Cyrax-like damage output. But with your points, it does seem like Jade has a slight advantage over Kratos.

IMO that same thing baited by any character is also punished for full combo.

My opinion of a few matchups,i haven't viewed them all,college.

Sub is 6-4 over kratos

his d4 is faster than any of kratos's pokes,and because of having the fastest d4 in the game he's able to reliably get a blockstring while other characters struggle with the 1 frame parry.

you still haven't understood of my viewpoint on what kratos does and why exactly he beats jc,he doesn't beat him because of zoning,or because he can counter ex kick (which you should just block)

fact remains that it's a 1 frame 40% parry,the reason cage loses is because even if he lands a d3 there's still a question of wether to follow it up with a f3 or not,jc's d3 is +2/3,that's a 6-7 frame window in which kratos can parry.

jc has to use d4 which i believe is slower than kratos's d3

parry is also punishable full combo,the damage output between parry combo and parry punish combo is basically the same except cage gains extra meter when he takes the guaranteed f33b3 chip

 

[Alien Substance]

IMO that same thing baited by any character is also punished for full combo.

My opinion of a few matchups,i haven't viewed them all,college.

Sub is 6-4 over kratos

his d4 is faster than any of kratos's pokes,and because of having the fastest d4 in the game he's able to reliably get a blockstring while other characters struggle with the 1 frame parry.

you still haven't understood of my viewpoint on what kratos does and why exactly he beats jc,he doesn't beat him because of zoning,or because he can counter ex kick (which you should just block)

fact remains that it's a 1 frame 40% parry,the reason cage loses is because even if he lands a d3 there's still a question of wether to follow it up with a f3 or not,jc's d3 is +2/3,that's a 6-7 frame window in which kratos can parry.

jc has to use d4 which i believe is slower than kratos's d3

parry is also punishable full combo,the damage output between parry combo and parry punish combo is basically the same except cage gains extra meter when he takes the guaranteed f33b3 chip

>Sub-Zero
I was pondering on the Subby MU recently. In my opinion, I think it comes down to whoever gets the life lead, and Sub-Zero has better tools to keep Kratos out than he does. That D+4 is a useful move for Sub-Zero too.

>Johnny Cage and the Golden Fleece.
Right, right. Forgot to mention that Fleece, I have made a terrible mistake on not including that.

Kratos' D+3 is 13 frames, while Johnny's D+4 is 12 frames, same as Kratos' D+4. 8 frames for Kratos' D+1, but it leaves him at frame disadvantage.

kratos cant keep subzero out,d4 under arrows,sub can machinegun d4 at any distance upclose simply because kratos has nothing to poke with

Kratos will have to bait the D+4 and attempt to whiff-punish with Head of Helios, but then there is the risk of Kratos getting punished if he makes a wrong read.

 

[Qwark28]

>Sub-Zero
I was pondering on the Subby MU recently. In my opinion, I think it comes down to whoever gets the life lead, and Sub-Zero has better tools to keep Kratos out than he does. That D+4 is a useful move for Sub-Zero too.

>Johnny Cage and the Golden Fleece.
Right, right. Forgot to mention that Fleece, I have made a terrible mistake on not including that.

Kratos' D+3 is 13 frames, while Johnny's D+4 is 12 frames, same as Kratos' D+4. 8 frames for Kratos' D+1, but it leaves him at frame disadvantage.

kratos cant keep subzero out,d4 under arrows,sub can machinegun d4 at any distance upclose simply because kratos has nothing to poke with

 

[Qwark28]

>Sub-Zero
I was pondering on the Subby MU recently. In my opinion, I think it comes down to whoever gets the life lead, and Sub-Zero has better tools to keep Kratos out than he does. That D+4 is a useful move for Sub-Zero too.

>Johnny Cage and the Golden Fleece.
Right, right. Forgot to mention that Fleece, I have made a terrible mistake on not including that.

Kratos' D+3 is 13 frames, while Johnny's D+4 is 12 frames, same as Kratos' D+4. 8 frames for Kratos' D+1, but it leaves him at frame disadvantage.

d1s create distance,1 frame is enough for whoever is P1 to F3/Parry but the distance created adds frames

 

[Alien Substance]

I was contemplating on the Kratos vs Kabal matchup a bit more, and with my more developed kombat-mind I thought "Kratos vs Kabal 5-5?!".

lol no, it's actually 4-6 in Kabal's advantage; Kratos comes close to a 5-5 against our infamous burn victim, but not close enough.

From fullscreen, Kabal's zoning can be negated by the Golden Fleece and Apollo's Bow (12% damage. Hits twice, so a non-wakeup EX Dash will get stuffed). Anywhere closer than around fullscreen, and it's the biggest guessing/reactionary game ever.
(Mostly guessing when discussing close-kombat)

NDC pressure is impeded by the Golden Fleece~Full combo punish. Of course, Kabal can just bait out the Parry and punish it, but the Kratos player can anticipate this and blockstring/punish/throw Kabal. What about a full Normal or EX Nomad Dash? Block if you think that's what's going to happen.
Poke? Crossover / Block / Flash Parry.
Throw? Crouch or Parry.
Crossover? Parry or AA.
Tornado Slam/Buzzsaw 50/50? Block/Fuzzy/Parry if you anticipate the Tornado Slam.

Most of Kabal's options also apply against Kratos' own HDC game.
(Further info: http://testyourmight.com/threads/hermes-dash-cancel-blockstring-strategy.25836/ )

From afar, Kabal's zoning is relatively ineffective. Up-close, it's all a huge guessing game that favors Kabal.

What makes this matchup a 4-6, is the fact Kabal is always going to be the better Meter-builder, and Kratos will be the one who has to get out of the NDC pressure for most of this matchup.
Guess right and Kabal will take a blockstring or eats at least 40% damage, unless he has Meter for a Breaker. Guess wrong and Kratos will take damage into the same NDC pressure situation, unless he has Meter and is willing to Break.


Sooooo..........thoughts?


Dec. 28th Edit: I'm starting to believe I was under the influence of 16 Bit's downplay contagion when I typed that last paragraph. While it is true that Kabal can build Meter better than Kratos, he will not necessarily always be to be on top of Kratos in the up-close game, Kratos still has a chance to be a threat when it's his turn to be in the dash-cancel game, not Kabal.

Adding to that, J360's video has corrected a foolish misconception in my mind; Cyber Sub-Zero's anti-wakeup Icy Counter nerf doesn't apply to Kratos' Parry.

Alrighty then!
Kratos vs Kabal 5-5

 

[NYCj360]

5-5 Insuperable can concurr

 

[huh]

I've been playing with Kratos for 3 months now, and I'm able to do most of his combos f42 starters, some HDC F2 combos, occasionally.. And I've been able to pretty much have good fight against most of the roster. However, I really have a hard time matching up against Noob spammers. If I dash/block, I eat a lot of chip damage just to get in. Using the parry, they teleport or just jump and continue spamming. When I get closer, they do the anti-air shadow that pretty much hits me if I poke, or do any melee attack. Besides Kratos having some slow normals.. So, I really don't know how to act with kratos in order to defeat a Noob spammer. What do I do when I close in? Is there any videos showing this matchup?