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Kotal right now

So in other words you want kotal to be buffed so u dont have to be better then your opponent to win? Lmfao
You laughed your ass off at that? You must be easily amused. Like the other poster said, id like kotal to be on reasonably equal grounds. Other characters are alot faster, safer and do more consistent damage. Often they do all 3 better than kotal
 

Moms4lif3

Bruh.
One question: does anyone know how much recovery he has on the god ray? If you do 122 as an ender in the corner (I think it’s like +34 on knockdown) and try to set it up, the opponent has like a full second to get up and punish. There simply is no safe way to set it up unless you’re full screen away.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
There’s simply no reward in playing him, when I win it’s usually because the other player is really bad or doesn’t know ANYTHING about the mu. Playing a character that doesn’t feel rewarding at all is no fun dude.
And what's the point of the weekly visits to bitch about him? Either play him or don't. If you play him, it's been 2 months, get over it. If you don't, why are you still here again?
 

Moms4lif3

Bruh.
And what's the point of the weekly visits to bitch about him? Either play him or don't. If you play him, it's been 2 months, get over it. If you don't, why are you still here again?
Read my posts, I didn’t bitch. There is no reason to pick him up, that IS the situation right now. I explained a couple of reasons why and I believe them to be valid. I feel the character could be better with a few tweaks. I play him, but it’s not nearly as fun as it could be. I wish it was more fun. That is why I’m here, I want the character that I like to play to be actually fun to play. You do not seem to grasp the difference between bitching/crying for buffs and reasonable arguments as to why a character is in a bad place in the meta right now. No character should be in such a bad spot, period. If you don’t agree and are willing to accept that some characters belong in the bottom tier forever, good for you, I’d like a well balanced game where all characters are on roughly the same level.
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
I still play him but also started playing other chars on the side. He is fun to play for me, even thou he is "limited".

But there is nothing wrong with liking the character and "no getting over" how bad he currently is.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Read my posts, I didn’t bitch. There is no reason to pick him up, that IS the situation right now. I explained a couple of reasons why and I believe them to be valid. I feel the character could be better with a few tweaks. I play him, but it’s not nearly as fun as it could be. I wish it was more fun. That is why I’m here, I want the character that I like to play to be actually fun to play. You do not seem to grasp the difference between bitching/crying for buffs and reasonable arguments as to why a character is in a bad place in the meta right now. No character should be in such a bad spot, period. If you don’t agree and are willing to accept that some characters belong in the bottom tier forever, good for you, I’d like a well balanced game where all characters are on roughly the same level.
I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the brigade of salty would-be mains e.g matador.
 

VSC_Supreme

TYM's #1 L taker.
Kotal in his current tournament variation state is disappointing. The most fun I've had playing him recently is with the damage totem.

IMO if ascension had the damage totem in stead of God Ray, we'd see a lot less complaints for Kotal.
 
Everything sends the opponent flying across the stage, why?
Kotal in his current tournament variation state is disappointing. The most fun I've had playing him recently is with the damage totem.

IMO if ascension had the damage totem in stead of God Ray, we'd see a lot less complaints for Kotal.
My working theory is almost every string and kombo ender for Kotal ends with the opponent relatively far away, so you knock them down and have time to pop a totem. Damage Totem + Blood Totem + Ground Cat is what I'm running currently, gives you less kombo potential but good tools. Ground Cat has corner carry which is nice. It feels like I have a real gameplan: knock em down, knock em to the corner, keep your totems up. Playing in the corner gives more kombo options.
 
To the extremists that say he is unplayable, have y'all played against a good kotal before?

Honestly curious because that's when I typically understand a characters strength, not the other way around. Again this is just for me and how I learn, but maybe something to consider for others.
At a certain point you have to recognize this is a pedantic argument. When people are saying "unplayable" they are not literally saying you can't play him, or even can't win with him, they're saying they don't enjoy pushing that particular boulder uphill because of stupid gaps in his design. When you're reading someone's posts you need to not just laser-focus on one word and try to pretend it's representative of the entirety of their argument.
 
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MagicMan357

"130 ms is more legit than Labbing" - TYM
Hands down i think kotal is the worst in the game and ill explain why. He exposes my main issue with the game. Limited or non-sensible options.

If you really pay attention to kotals normals and strings, you get the feeling hes gonna really tear shit up with his sword but instead we get strings that should juggle that dont. There also isnt anymore combo re-bounders like mkx or Inj (excluding lui kang i guess) which i understand making juggles less long but it weakens OPTIONS and this literally gives kotal NO options.

He has to pick a move to get any legit combos started when his toolset has atleast 2 launchers! Maybe they thought about the damage and health stack but theyre already broken asf and they should work on that. I havent studied all of his frame data but it seems all he can do is jabs and d1. Another thing, why dont most of his special moves with the sword combo? WTF kind of ghetto mix-up crap is that? And his command grab i believe gives him more damage, but why? Once again he's so limited that even his kustom loadouts feel like trash.
 
He has to pick a move to get any legit combos started when his toolset has atleast 2 launchers! Maybe they thought about the damage and health stack but theyre already broken asf and they should work on that. I havent studied all of his frame data but it seems all he can do is jabs and d1. Another thing, why dont most of his special moves with the sword combo? WTF kind of ghetto mix-up crap is that? And his command grab i believe gives him more damage, but why? Once again he's so limited that even his kustom loadouts feel like trash.
B22 is actually a launcher that can get you some stuff (there's another string that you can only kombo off of in the corner, as well), but generally yes he's way more limited without Kahn Cut in Ascension variation.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
IMO if ascension had the damage totem in stead of God Ray, we'd see a lot less complaints for Kotal.
Yeah but then you are taking maybe the best thing about Totemic(the normal Sun ray) and giving it to Ascension. Ascension having God Ray is basically a nerf.

That said, I really wish that the totems were just a base part of his gameplay or more relevant in tourney variations.
 
@CorneliusBrutus first off the post wasn't directed at anyone, but since you mentioned it let me ask what substance have I missed from this thread.

Don't matter how you want to slice this cake, the cake is filled with nothing but baking powder and other inedible materials and is thus a flan cake. He's an incomplete character, filled with so many issues that it's not funny.
Hes bottom 2 imo. You only win with this character by outplaying and being better than your opponent. Nearly everything he has is punishable and/or super slow. I have revisited him a few times and i just never have fun because it feels like an uphill battle.

Its a shame because he was my favorite new character in mkx. Hes a total bitch in mk11 story mode so he lost cool points for me there too
Right now we are playing the Public Test Realm version of Kotal. When the balance patch happens Kotal will be complete and will be the games first free DLC character.
Saying Kotal can do anything is up-playing him and he basically can't do anything

Kotal is as far as I am concerned the legitimate worst character in the game. Even if you don't agree, you'd have to say he's bottom 3 unless you are delusional.

Can't downplay an effectively rotten character.
Kotal right now = crap

He is in the same D'vorah situation: waiting for a decent balance patch, in order to receive some well deserved buffers from NRS, hehe :D
I asked a very straight forward question about how people are analyzing character strengths. I did not quote anyone before, I did not mention a name period. Everyone here is saying he is incomplete, which to me means unplayable. But then we do not talk about match ups at all or the state of the game. Most people here just zero in on the top tier and make a comparison. They are outliers and should not be the model. But when I compare him to characters below the notable top tier I do not see a large gap in his skill set. Go ahead scour the forums and play the cast. . . you hear a recurring theme here. I do not even deny he is not top tier. I am just asking if anyone that uses more than one character has played against a good Kotal so that we can get match up knowledge and information. Ask around, I just care about in game experience and broadening our knowledge base. The question still stands. . . but no one has really answered. I know I have played @Qwark28 and while we were playing we both noted how awkward it was dealing with his far lunging buttons. I've even asked for Kotal players to join a conversation so that we can test match ups live and either get better or decide that a match up is truly a problem. I test match ups out as often as I can, but I can't use every character as much as I try. That is why I ask for your help on TYM to break down match ups. My problem is there are too many players that do not interact with each other here to get better. If you just play kustom variations or Kombat League and then come here to talk about how bad Kotal is, it isn't helpful. Put up some vids or lets get some sets among ourselves to get a better understanding.
 

VSC_Supreme

TYM's #1 L taker.
Yeah but then you are taking maybe the best thing about Totemic(the normal Sun ray) and giving it to Ascension. Ascension having God Ray is basically a nerf.

That said, I really wish that the totems were just a base part of his gameplay or more relevant in tourney variations.
I agree, God Ray sucks, Idk why it doesn't work the way it did in MKX. But I also think a lot of his specials suck, but Dmg totem recovers fairly quickly and the buff allows you to put some fear in your opponent.
 
@AK Harold I feel like the thread has had plenty of analysis.

Good things about Kotal discussed here:
  • Good reach on some strings and buttons for playing footsies
  • Easiest input and solid command grab (in one variation)
Bad things about Kotal discussed here:
  • Few safe strings
  • Few fast mids
  • Unexpectedly bad buttons (D2, B4)
  • Hitbox problems (tbf many MK11 characters have this to a degree)
  • Combo enders leave Kotal at an awkward distance from his opponent and/or switch sides
  • Base kit missing too many tools, lending too much weight to be carried by the variation abilities, which leads me to --
  • Variations and abilities are poorly constructed and may need streamlining -- there's a lot of variables here, but stuff like Cat + air cat taking two slots (maybe people disagree, that's my personal bugaboo), Ascension's God Ray modifier being a nerf, not leveraging his totems, some abilities could probably be baseline etc. Again, lots of possibilities here, and much of it is up to personal opinion
Characters can and should exist with drawbacks, it's just good design, but most people here feel like he has a disproportionate amount relative to his strengths. I don't think I'm even at the point where focusing in on individual matchups can grant much insight, but by all means there's a living matchup thread for specific discussion there. Or, as this thread was a general temperature-taking inquiry that has morphed into a larger conversation, maybe you can post here about the many ways we are playing Kotal incorrectly and guide the conversation that way.
 
@CorneliusBrutus again it is not about me telling you how you are doing it wrong because.

A. I have no measure of what your skill is or how you approach a match since you refuse to display or discuss either in detail

B. I have literally said twice in a row that I am asking what people are doing to see what's effective not preaching what I think is the best way to play kotal

C. At this point even if I could tell you, you would steer the conversation to talking about how bad kotal is instead of talking about the points I make.

A few points. For positives.

Kotal excels in mid range we all agree on that. So when you knock down or back you maintain this range. This deters wake ups because you will blow it up by taking no action.

B4 frames are not great, but the move itself is a wall that kills forward advancing moves and is good for footsies with throws.

He has two, yes two throw kb options. This is ridiculously overlooked. Most characters would kill for just one direction. Does massive damage for a 50 50 or stored as a 10 f punish.

He also has a counter hit 11f kb which is very accessible.

Ascension has some of the best damage in the game from an 8f punch. He also has quite high meterless damage for what it's worth. Close to Sonya but from multiple strings to confirm from.

His strings are obviously designed to whiff punish or take advantage of walking. His only unsafe string that you would use often is f34 in instances that you are going to be blocked.

His command grab is a mid, this is extremely potent considering the damage buff he can get and positioning.

He has one of the best wave dash in game if not the best because his buttons force respect at awkward ranges.

He is one of the few characters that can actually punish delay wake ups with his meaty unblockable.

The bars

Lack of mids that can combo. I agree but imagine if Sonya had sick mids too, it's the trade off for the damage potential. At least we can whiff punish and f2 to combo hard. F1 being mid would bless us but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Bad buttons. Most characters have em, take you pick. Our worst is probably d3. B4 is definitely not one.

Hitboxes you already understand most characters have this. For now think of it as a feature not a mistake. Many games have character specific combos and punishes. Gotta play the game as it is.

Positioning, many characters have to give up damage for this. We have to give up an exceptional amount in comparison.

Base kit and variations which moves should be added to base kit that wouldn't break either variation. I'd love his grab or combo cut for totemic.

For Ascension I don't know what move you would add to it.

Again if any of you are on PSN get at me and let's play. This is the original message, to ask for games and test match ups. And again avoiding trying to network and learn.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Again, you either play kotal or not.

Those of us who like him play him, those of us who don't don't.

If you don't play kotal on the regular because he's bad or not fun for you or whatever, don't come here once a week and cry about how you played him for 3 games and started spontaneously puking from your eyeballs.

Because those sort of people tend to be those that didn't even give the character a chance by playing him for at least a couple weeks or just didn't have the fundamentals/needed characters that get things for free.

At the same time, some of us are dedicated to making this character work. And he's a bottom 3 char, but he's not terrible. The character gives you the tools you need to win, even if they're not easy to use. 6-4 matchups never hurt nobody and 99% of the people who gave up on him by week 1-2 are those sort of lazy whiners.

If you think a char who has it a little rough, but nowhere near as rough as previous NRS games, is just that unplayable for you on a purely balance perspective, without hiding that under "I don't like him" , but STILL wanna complain, you have no reason to post, and nobody cares about your post because you're actively adding garbage posts to sift through. I think we'd all rather read through posts be equally dedicated players and contribute to a better understanding of the character instead of "man I tried to play kotal this week too and I just couldn't deal with a 6-4, back to XYZ and waiting for buffs!!!!".
 
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Moms4lif3

Bruh.
I feel like kotal has a lot of tools that should be good but aren’t. They are simply not reliable for the most part and do not work in situations where you would want or need them to work.
B22 is actually a launcher that can get you some stuff (there's another string that you can only kombo off of in the corner, as well), but generally yes he's way more limited without Kahn Cut in Ascension variation.
yes, but it also has slow startup, is a high and is punishable on block. You cannot throw it out safely unless you know for sure you have the whiff punish. So it’s pretty useless in most situations honestly.