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Kotal Kahn Video Thread

Metzos

You will BOW to me!

had a FT10 with @Metzos noob

this is basically how to play the matchup, I consider it a VERY difficult 6-4 bordering on 7-3 for many reasons.

That set wasnt a good reflection of the MU imho, but whatever. Relying on yolo fb's and random cancels is not the way to judge the MU. Imo its a solid 7-3 in Noob's favor.

I was dropping combos left and right cause i was going for the optimal ones online, plus the fact i was getting hit like an idiot.

But yeah, in the end its a very difficult MU for KK.
 

AK Harold

Warrior
I think you are way too aggressive in this mu. Noob benefits from you attacking into him too much. Just duck and practice flawless on the clone. You are using max distance f2 too much. Try closing just slightly more space so you can prevent him from back walking and punishing. F2 in itself is handing yourself to the noob for free damage. If you get to f4 range then you can mix his dash throws with it.

Also, if y'all are training partners, should really show him how to punish B2 properly. It was used a lot and not as a punish.

Throws
Your tick throws we're getting blown up more than working. You rarely used regular throw to store the kb. As a. Command grab char with throw kb you need to establish it early and save it for 35ish so you can avoid fatals. On block need to use your command grab more. I don't think you did it once. You rarely amp your grab and went for reset. Go back and count out the times you did get something out of it besides a block. Then tally the damage loss. I understand you felt uncomfortable in the neutral, but if you overcome that first then you should take the damage more often then not. I would reserve he non amp for your moments you want or need the damage potential. Simply reverse how often you do it. It's essentially the same mentality of a reset, but you aren't getting anything solid from it.

D1 game
He had an obvious inclination to D1 after hit or block. Try using walk b4 more. It punishes most D1 and put them right at your feet to do it again or throw etc. This will open up your throw game a lot more. Just from the set he always poked after or jumped. Force some wake ups so he can't break away so much.

F4 probably need to threaten this more especially in this match up. Noob doesn't have many threats from this position and leaves you in a much better spot then f2 or B2 which is where he can actually mix you.

Overall was good to watch and I learned a lot. Thanks for footage, I know it's not easy putting yourself out there.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I think you are way too aggressive in this mu. Noob benefits from you attacking into him too much. Just duck and practice flawless on the clone. You are using max distance f2 too much. Try closing just slightly more space so you can prevent him from back walking and punishing. F2 in itself is handing yourself to the noob for free damage. If you get to f4 range then you can mix his dash throws with it.

Also, if y'all are training partners, should really show him how to punish B2 properly. It was used a lot and not as a punish.

Throws
Your tick throws we're getting blown up more than working. You rarely used regular throw to store the kb. As a. Command grab char with throw kb you need to establish it early and save it for 35ish so you can avoid fatals. On block need to use your command grab more. I don't think you did it once. You rarely amp your grab and went for reset. Go back and count out the times you did get something out of it besides a block. Then tally the damage loss. I understand you felt uncomfortable in the neutral, but if you overcome that first then you should take the damage more often then not. I would reserve he non amp for your moments you want or need the damage potential. Simply reverse how often you do it. It's essentially the same mentality of a reset, but you aren't getting anything solid from it.

D1 game
He had an obvious inclination to D1 after hit or block. Try using walk b4 more. It punishes most D1 and put them right at your feet to do it again or throw etc. This will open up your throw game a lot more. Just from the set he always poked after or jumped. Force some wake ups so he can't break away so much.

F4 probably need to threaten this more especially in this match up. Noob doesn't have many threats from this position and leaves you in a much better spot then f2 or B2 which is where he can actually mix you.

Overall was good to watch and I learned a lot. Thanks for footage, I know it's not easy putting yourself out there.
Really appreciate the feedback because I've been kinda stuck lately.

I'll rewatch the vid in a bit, but I wanna explain why I do things first and how I view the matchup.

I agree on the aggressiveness if it was the first couple of games, from the middle of the set and on I tried to play as passively as I've ever played, often reaching timeouts. If you mean that I let myself in at -7 with F24, I agree but I really think it's important to stress this tool to my opp so they worry 24/7, I often only had to block a 11 or an occasional throw, but if they're blocking the F24 it lets you do other things instead. I just don't see those things vs Noob you know? Vs other chars I'd wavedash command grab, f34, wavedash j1 etc. I just hate how most random buttons noob throws out confirm into big damage, I think the character is just autopilot 50% dmg footsies vs those unfortunate chars to not be able to punish B11+3 and with no good mids.

In most matchups I make a distinction between normal throw and command throw, e.g vs erron black or SK where your grab or D1 would normally whiff but your throw wouldn't. In this one, I haven't blocked a thing that I think I can throw after without him either being out of range or poking. In this matchup, there's no threat for me landing a D1 on hit, Metzos always either mashes D2 or neutral jump and that's a legit mixup because the only response is F4, which is 7%. He also challenges small + situations constantly, hence the lack of tick throws. In the beginning you see a JK where I was like +2 and he poked right after, making my cg whiff IIRC. I just don't see situations that give me the range and the + frames to do anything outside of D1, where he D2/Jumps. So I use it once there's respect for things like F2, F3, F4, etc.

The above is why I do regular command grab. I've been going back and forth between what the best thing to do is, week 1 I was thinking I can wavedash into oki so I should do the normal, week 2-3 that I should only do EX because anything after normal is risky and not legit, and now I've been convinced the last 2 weeks that there's a lot of staggering and mixups after normal.

It generally annoys me how much of an idiot the NS player can afford to be. That's why I don't see where I could B4 either, do you have any timestamps for that? I'm afraid to walk back incase I eat 40%.

My general mindset towards this matchup is that if there's 1 thing I have that makes me semi competitive is my F2, that's why I try to use it a lot.

I also have told him about B2 but he's a bit slow. My other training partner just jabs in between b22/3 and doesn't let me do it, metzos is generally the one a little more unfamiliar with capitalising on things like that.

Let me know your thoughts, I'll rewatch it now.
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
If you're referring to your own KBs, I agree. If you're referring to my own, I've been threatening D1 command grab or D1 KB since day 1 and you in particular have blocked it on one occasion. If you're getting hit by something for 37 days straight without punishing once, maybe it's time to accept that it's not a gimmick..

But yeah, it's always something like "I got hit by gimmicks" "Getting hit randomly" "Didn't play well" "Dropping combos"
Truth hurts i know. Its still yolo. If you see in the video, my own FBs were based on reads, or in some occasions, on reaction to something you did. You were just doing d1s or strings to FBs or full combo punishable specials on block. What is that called? Yeah you are right its not a gimmick its called randomness. In order to punish something i have to block it first. Learn to write.

I m not going to get into an argument with you because it wont lead anywhere i know.

As for your last sentence. "i got hit by gimmicks." Yeah they were gimmicks.

"Getting hit randomly." W00t? Unless you mean the yolo fb or special cancels on block, then yeah thats random.

"Didnt play well." I didnt say that anywhere in my post, but yeah that wasnt my best set tbh and you know that. I had dropped NS for quite sometime cause i was lvling up Shao Kahn.

"Dropping combos." I could go for the non optimal combos which still do above 35% dmg, but unlike you, i wanna lvl up, not win.

Post edited.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Truth hurts i know. Its still yolo. If you see in the video, my own FBs were based on reads, or in some occasions, on reaction to something you did. You were just doing d1s or strings to FBs or full combo punishable specials on block. What is that called? Yeah you are right its not a gimmick its called randomness. In order to punish something i have to block it first. Learn to write.

I m not going to get into an argument with you because it wont lead anywhere i know.

As for your last sentence. "i got hit by gimmicks." Yeah they were gimmicks.

"Getting hit randomly." W00t? Unless you mean the yolo fb or special cancels on block, then yeah thats random.

"Didnt play well." I didnt say that anywhere in my post, but yeah that wasnt my best set tbh and you know that. I had dropped NS for quite sometime cause i was lvling up Shao Kahn.

"Dropping combos." I could go for the non optimal combos which still do above 35% dmg, but unlike you, i wanna lvl up, not win.

Post edited.
It's literally exactly like you to have excuses every single time you lose man, I give up. I can't remember a single time you haven't made a multitude of excuses.

You've never blocked more than a single D1 KB in your life, you spam neutral jump and D2s no matter what character you're against and you're talking about yolo. Whatever dude.

And I don't care if it wasn't your best set. I've literally uploaded me getting my ass pounded in matchups I don't know since day 1 when I started streaming, how the fuck you gonna say I only want to win when we've personally sat down offline for 10+ hours playing a matchup in which I only won 1 game out of 5 at best?

Whatever dude, believe what you want. It's cool if you want to complain about dropping combos online in 3f of lag, but some of us are going to travel and play this game competitively, and I'm tired of listening to bitching every time we play.
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
It's literally exactly like you to have excuses every single time you lose man, I give up. I can't remember a single time you haven't made a multitude of excuses.

You've never blocked more than a single D1 KB in your life, you spam neutral jump and D2s no matter what character you're against and you're talking about yolo. Whatever dude.

And I don't care if it wasn't your best set. I've literally uploaded me getting my ass pounded in matchups I don't know since day 1 when I started streaming, how the fuck you gonna say I only want to win when we've personally sat down offline for 10+ hours playing a matchup in which I only won 1 game out of 5 at best?

Whatever dude, believe what you want. It's cool if you want to complain about dropping combos online in 3f of lag, but some of us are going to travel and play this game competitively, and I'm tired of listening to bitching every time we play.

I am calling you officially a liar. Seriously.

Yes i havent, cause only a scrub would do that so many times in such a short number of matches. Liar.

No, i spam d2s and neutral jump against KK cause the reward is in my favor 9 times out of 10, or mostly when i play Shao Kahn, cause the reward ONCE AGAIN IS IN MY FAVOR because of his dmg output off a jk. Learn the fucking difference, scrub. I m not getting full combo punished if i just neutral jump something. Once again, liar.

I wrote what i wrote because you started saying lies (again) that i said i wasnt playing good, which i didnt even mention in my first post. You assumed that. But then again, lies all over.

That set was in the second or third day of the release of the game Qwark.... I remember saying that this MU was a solid 7-3 in NS's favor and you told me that its too early to judge that fast and you were bitching to me when i told you to switch characters. Guess who was right? Again.


If you are tired of listening to facts (not bitching), then lvl up. Ok kid? Whenever you cant defend against something, you resort to yolo stuff to win. If you go abroad with that mentality, you will get blown up.

I dont give a shit if i lose, but i do give a shit if someone calls me out and is talking bs, like you are right now.
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
Damn, that escalated pretty quickly. You both should chill like Harold said.

I find that jumping vs Kotal is amazing no matter what character you're playing. It beats most of his option and at worst you will lose like 7 to 15% while when you hit njk and convert of it - some characters can go up to 40%.

Side observation, you got pretty good Kotal Qwark but i think you get annoyed/mentaly blocked way to quickly which leads you very often to making simple mistakes and losing sets. You get really pissed when people press buttons after they're like -1 to -4f which happen quite often, especially online, that with conjuction of really bad d1 that Kotal has makes you salty very quickly. Like i said just an observation, your Kotal is good, probably better then my.

also Metzos has a really nice SK.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room

ranked sessions + games with a KL

I get insanely salty playing this game lately. Kotal has the very unfortunate combination of no decent mids, very bad pokes, low active frames and a game where people pressing buttons is punished with more difficulty than MKX/9. I can't stand winning a set like 15-9 while at the same time I hit my opp with D1 4 times in a row just to prove a point.

Feels like you have to do so much more to win with this character.
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink

ranked sessions + games with a KL

I get insanely salty playing this game lately. Kotal has the very unfortunate combination of no decent mids, very bad pokes, low active frames and a game where people pressing buttons is punished with more difficulty than MKX/9. I can't stand winning a set like 15-9 while at the same time I hit my opp with D1 4 times in a row just to prove a point.

Feels like you have to do so much more to win with this character.
The thing is everytime u get hit u complain. Even if ur opponent made a read on you, you get triggered and said he got lucky or whatever excuse you had.
Its never ever your fault.

Its not only that i dont like but also the namecalling like retard or idiot or whatever is pretty bad.
Reading that discusion u had with metzos i absolutely understand his anger.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
The thing is everytime u get hit u complain. Even if ur opponent made a read on you, you get triggered and said he got lucky or whatever excuse you had.
Its never ever your fault.

Its not only that i dont like but also the namecalling like (soap bar in my mouth) or idiot or whatever is pretty bad.
Reading that discusion u had with metzos i absolutely understand his anger.
You mentioned this at a time where I was playing the random lao player who would literally mash D2 after my D1s no matter how many times I punished him, 20 games in a set, or mash D2 after a 2nd hit, catch whiffs with J2 and then go into divekick instead of a full combo, mash D3 3 times in a row. Yeah, that's completely random, it's not reads, it's autopilot behaviour the other person is doing over and over, and that's why when I stopped being salty I won almost 10 in a row. I didn't even say anything other than he's just pressing buttons ad nauseum, and we said ggs afterwards.

I'll tone it down because I understand it's not exactly entertaining or relaxing to watch, but to clarify something important...

When I play with my scene it's not at all like this and we're all in voice talking etc for nearly 8 years now.

Completely different than faceless ranked with randoms in 130 ms, of course it's easy to identify with what someone else says when you only see one side of the story, but maybe keep in mind that 8 year friendships are slightly more complicated than judging someone for raging online.
 
Last edited:

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
You mentioned this at a time where I was playing the random lao player who would literally mash D2 after my D1s no matter how many times I punished him, 20 games in a set, or mash D2 after a 2nd hit, catch whiffs with J2 and then go into divekick instead of a full combo, mash D3 3 times in a row. Yeah, that's completely random, it's not reads, it's autopilot behaviour the other person is doing over and over, and that's why when I stopped being salty I won almost 10 in a row. I didn't even say anything other than he's just pressing buttons ad nauseum, and we said ggs afterwards.

I'll tone it down because I understand it's not exactly entertaining or relaxing to watch, but to clarify something important...

When I play with my scene it's not at all like this and we're all in voice talking etc for nearly 8 years now.

Completely different than faceless ranked with randoms in 130 ms, of course it's easy to identify with what someone else says when you only see one side of the story, but maybe keep in mind that 8 year friendships are slightly more complicated than judging someone for raging online.
No its not the kung lao player only, pretty much everyone u play againstin rankee. But you do you. Have fun with your stream.
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
My Ascension Kotal is still very much a work in progress, but I thought I'd start streaming now to show my growth over time. I also talk during the stream about what I should be doing differently to give a sense of what I'm shooting for in my game play. Hope it helps/people enjoy it:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/434271657
 
My Ascension Kotal is still very much a work in progress, but I thought I'd start streaming now to show my growth over time. I also talk during the stream about what I should be doing differently to give a sense of what I'm shooting for in my game play. Hope it helps/people enjoy it:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/434271657
Nice Kotal I think I've ran into you in ranked. I notice that you use b22 after j1 a lot. Is it better than f12?
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Nice Kotal I think I've ran into you in ranked. I notice that you use b22 after j1 a lot. Is it better than f12?
B22 is a terrible string to use in anything outside of whiff punishes.

The entire string is guaranteed to end in something punishable if your opp knows the matchup.
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
Thanks, @kula0103. I think I've only played one Kotal online before, so maybe it was you!

As for B22 after NJ1, it's the optimal starter for Totemic. However, for Ascension, I should be doing F24, but I'm still working on reprogramming that muscle memory.
 

AK Harold

Warrior
I believe you can d3 the f212 string bafter first hit, this will force the f22 option more which is punished on block with F1.