Match Footage Knockdowns in relation to rounds won (Infiltration vs. Momochi)

Discussion in 'Fighting Philosophy' started by Protagonist_1, Aug 9, 2014.

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    Recently I was watching a couple of SF4 matches, and I pondered to myself:

    I wonder how the number of knockdowns correlates to rounds won?

    I decided to rewatch Momochi vs. Infiltration at CEO playing USF4, and took record of all the knockdowns that occured within the match, and who won. Here are the results (and the match if you want to see it):



    Knockdowns per round (winner of round in gold) (NOTE: knockdowns that were the final blow of the round are included also)

    Match 1:
    R1: Momochi-1/Infiltration-4
    R2: Momochi-1/Infiltration-3

    Match 2:
    R1: Momochi-3/Infiltration-4
    R2: Momochi-4/Infiltration-0
    R3: Momochi-2/Infiltration-4

    Match 3:
    R1: Momochi-2/Infiltration-2
    R2: Momochi-3/Infiltration-3
    R3: Momochi-6/Infiltration-2

    Match 4:
    R1: Momochi-4/Infiltration-5
    R2: Momochi-1/Infiltration-5

    Match 5:
    R1: Momochi-3/Infiltration-2
    R2: Momochi-1/Infiltration-4
    R3: Momochi-3/Infiltration-2

    Match 6:
    R1: Momochi-3/Infiltration-3
    R2: Momochi-0/Infiltration-2
    R3: Momochi-1/Infiltration-4

    Match 7:
    R1: Momochi-2/Infiltration-4
    R2: Momochi-4/Infiltration-5

    Match 8:
    R1: Momochi-0/Infiltration-5 (Perfect)
    R2: Momochi-1/Infiltration-6

    Total Knockdowns:
    Infiltration: 71
    Momochi: 45

    For all rounds, the person with the most knockdowns won the match (unless knockdowns were even). I'm pretty curious to try this with other matches in SF4 as well, just to see if it is coincidence (I highly doubt it).

    TL;DR
    The more you're on your feet, and the better you are at putting your opponent on their but, the higher chances you have of winning in SF4.


    Still TL:DR:
    Don't get knocked down

     
    #1
  2. HGTV Soapboxfan

    HGTV Soapboxfan "Always a Pleasure"

    Nobody responded to this? This is really interesting. You should do it with injustice as well, although I'd expect similar results.
     
    #2
  3. Thanks @HGTV Soapboxfan, I plan to do this as well. I would assume this correlation would apply to most fighting games, not only SF4 as well, although it might not be as consistent. It should be known though that this is a correlation, so it would increase your chances of winning, but not guarantee you the win, considering winning a round is based off of many other variables as well. :D
     
    #3
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  4. Barrogh

    Barrogh Meta saltmine

    Steam:
    barrogh
    I don't know much about SF of characters in question, but I don't remember SF being famous for sick standing resets, but is somewhat known for BS knockdown setups; plus it's not like being knocked down is something that puts you into advantageous situation there anyways. Maybe that may explain some correlation.

    Plus another thing is that combos typically end in KD (?), at this point it becomes even easier to see correlation.
     
    #4
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  5. The PantyChrist

    The PantyChrist Rest in Pantiez

    You're threads are always interesting
     
    #5
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  6. coolwhip

    coolwhip Noob

    I'm curious how this works in MK9, where standing resets were a better option than a knockdown in many cases, and wake-up attacks were at times quite powerful. In Injustice, I think the player with the most knockdowns will usually win. At least that's how I envision it when I think of characters like Flash, Catwoman, Wonder Woman, Bane, etc...
     
    #6
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  7. BRUTALITY

    BRUTALITY Banned

    i think this confirms what most already believed. interesting nonetheless.
     
    #7
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  8. NRF CharlieMurphy

    NRF CharlieMurphy Kindergarten Meta

    Unless Bane

    cuz Bane.
     
    #8
  9. NRF CharlieMurphy

    NRF CharlieMurphy Kindergarten Meta

    Wouldn't you consider a standing reset a type of KD?
    then again... IDK.

    at least on a KD you have a chance to guess

    standing reset eliminates all your options.
    interesting.

    I'd love to see how often Kung Lao won based on his KD's. I think he's the only one that really would make sense in MK to know those stats.
     
    #9
  10. Street Fighters footsies revolves heavily off of okizeme (also known as oki). One of the reasons why footsies is so strong in SF4 is being knocked down puts you at a severe disadvantage as opposed to standing. Because of this, both opponents try their best to stay standing (because being knocked down can lead to potential damage to your opponent). Of course, there are other reasons why footsies are emphasized as well (good normals, strong anti-airs, good walk speed to dash distance ratio, etc.), oki is just one of them.

    A good example of this was when Auturo analyzed a set between Daigo and Infiltration and why Daigo couldn't wake up DP to anti-air akuma's demon flip when he got knocked down. My memory is a bit fuzzy on the explanation, but it had to do with the hitbox of DP vs. the demon flip which would stuff it, so it lead to a complete guessing game:

    (34:00- you can see how critical infiltration landing sweeps was in this match)


    I do agree with you that combos lead to a knock down, so the more combos landed compared to wins could also be the reason (the correlation mentioned in the OP should be taken with a grain of salt). There are a lot of variables that lead to wins, I was just surprised that not one match had a person score less knockdowns and win. Thanks for the response, I plan to do this with injustice as well when I get the chance :D
     
    #10
    NRF CharlieMurphy likes this.
  11. Very interesting point. I think this is where some of the belief that "mk9 didn't have footsies" came from when the game was early released, because oki wasn't as strong (you would rather keep your opponent standing than knock them down), which went against the tradition mindset of footsies (scoring a knockdown for more potential damage).

    For example, a Kabal player would want to keep you standing and potentially chip you out, build meter, or mix a person up for another potential combo then knock them down.

    Although the mindset of "traditional footsies" is subjective because it mainly refers to SF4's footsies. I honestly feel all games have their own unique neutral game, it's up to the player to understand how it works, and how to take advantage of it.

    Due to school work, I haven't had the time to do an analysis of an MK9 matches knockdowns to rounds won or injustice, but I would like to. Hopefully in the near future. :)
     
    #11
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  12. @MylesWright_

    @MylesWright_ I'll be back 3ing

    It never occurred to me that getting knockdown more meant you were losing
     
    #12
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  13. coolwhip

    coolwhip Noob

    I view a standing reset differently to a KD for precisely the reason you mentioned. After a standing reset, unless you're not at a large enough frame disadvantage (which is the case after Mileena's jumping neck bite thing for example), you can't do anything but block (say after Sub's b121, Kabal's F4, Ermac's F4, Cage's nut punch, though that even gave a safe jump), so really, there's not a whole lot you can do other than maybe guess/react to a throw mix-up. With KD's, you have the mind games on wake-up, both for you and your opponent.

    Definitely agree with Kung Lao. After 2,4 grab (hard knockdown version, without the just frame), both low hat and F2 otg. Plus, you have ex teleport after a knockdown (tele 2 otg's, whiffing grab to retain armor, etc...), or whiffing dive kicks to land right in your face and continue pressure (god damn I love that character!).

    Though I do think there are other characters worth analyzing in that regard in MK9. Jax being one. He too, benefited immensely from knockdows (ground pound, ground pound cancels, armoring through wake-up attacks, whiffing dash punches, etc...).
     
    #13
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2014
    Protagonist_1 likes this.
  14. Circus

    Circus Tell me where you want it

    PSN:
    JTCircus
    I seriously love these kinds of statistics. Good shit @Protagonist_1
     
    #14
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  15. NRF CharlieMurphy

    NRF CharlieMurphy Kindergarten Meta

    Mk is so great that it doesn't play by the rules in this nature.

    the biggest thing I would love to see would be how Bane fares in Injustice with KD AGAINST him and his loss rate.
    I'm willing to bet knocking him down doesn't matter.
     
    #15
  16. THTB

    THTB #IDoMachines

    XBL:
    x THTB x
    Steam:
    THTB614
    Reptile has probably the best oki offense in MK9.
     
    #16
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  17. Barrogh

    Barrogh Meta saltmine

    Steam:
    barrogh
    You will probably see how strong someone's wake-up game is (although it's already should be statistically accounted for in matchup numbers since you don't wake up in the vacuum anyways, but against certain character). Still, when it comes into play it means you got hit already.

    Also since Bane was mentioned... Come to think of it, if you are to judge wakeup capability, you should account for when it actually matters (if opponent wishes to press, if downed character actually does something off his KD etc.). Without context it boils down (if we ignore damage output differences) to "one who gets hit more is often the one who loses match".
     
    #17
  18. This thread is ancient, but after seeing some analysis by Sajam I may try to get back to this at some point. Good times
     
    #18
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