Kitana's core issues and how the developers can overcome them.

[John_NX]

Hi everyone. I've been meaning to create this thread for a while now but i honestly never gotten to do it. As a kitana main i'd like to talk about the issues that kitana is having at the moment im writing this thread (7/12/19) since we dont know what the future holds for us.

General issues:
Playing this game for over 7 months now and playing with people of ALL skills, i've come to realise why and how some characters make it up so far into the tier list and why and how some characters win easier or have an easier time in general. I'd like to compare those "advantages" with kitana.

- Shimmies (Hope i wrote it correctly). In this game, where it is already hard for most of the cast to open up the opponent, having a shimmy does wonders. Characters like Cassie, Scorpion, Baraka, Erron, Jacqui, Cetrion, Liu Kang, Kabal etc have a lot of potential to open up their opponent with shimmies using their 111 or 112 or whatever the character has, since the opponent might think you are going for a throw as the animation between S1 and throw is similar OR they are trying to counter you with their moves. Kitana DOES NOT have any shimmy potential outside her Highborn variation (where you might be able to cancel her s12 into a throw). Her only "shimmy" option is her B2 (Starts at 17 frames so rip) , which im not gonna lie, it catches a lot of people off guard.

- Mix ups. Now...this is definitely not JUST a kitana problem, but she is also affected by it. Outside of "Fanfare" (which offers NO mixup potential). The only variation that gives her "true" mixups is "Fearless" , Highborn to some degree as well, and even if she SUCCEEDS to mix up the opponent, not only does it leads to poor damage but it also requires a bar for it. That variation also takes away your ability to make punishes hurt in general and its mainly used for zoning, in a game where zoning isnt the best. Not having either shimmies or mixups (or they are too costly), when some characters i've mentioned before either have mixups or shimmies, REALLY hurts kitana and those 2 issues can be particularly seen on a high-mid level where the opponent is more than ready for whatever you do.

- Pokes. Aside from shimmies and mixups, kitanas pokes are also bad in general. The only good poke she has is d3 (and yes that shit of a poke low profiles, its annoying i know). However even if her D3 is good, the range is awful. Her D1 is 9 frames...like 9 frames (and its -7 on block, so you cant mash it). Her D4 is meh and you need to space yourself correctly most of the time for your opponent to be "Afraid" of it. Also not mashable. HOWEVER.... i want to say that i dont want to see kitanas pokes change and you might as well ask WHY? Because this is how EVERY characters pokes should be like. Not mashable and used to gain space. Not being able to do D1,D1,D1,D1,D4,D4,D4,D4 5 times in a row. IF they were to change her poke frames, i'd definitely like to see her D1 faster and her D4 faster as well, or are less minus on block.

- Neutral control. Kitana does not dominate the neutral at all. She sure does cover space with her B231 until the opponent jumps. Then we all know what happens. Aside from her B231, her B14-B131 are her other whiff punishers or combo starters. However...the range is really limited and you REALLY have to be on point to whiff punish with B1. Sometimes trying to whiff punish with B231 doesnt work because of its slow start up and B14 doesnt cover a lot of space so...you have to be on point as i said.

Recent buffs:
I've seen a lot of discussion on TYM, Reddit and other websites, that the recent buffs Kitana received are either "undeserved" "Unnecessary" "Overpowered". Even 16bit said that Kitana was the "Most changed character" in that patch and quite honestly...i dont see it how that is true or how people say those comments about her buffs. YES, the changes did help kitana in general but those were QOL changes and not specific changes to her frame data that she desperately needs. If anything i believe she got some changes that should have been BASE, without having to make those changes. It's also quite funny because she was nerfed on day 1 and they removed a lot of things they gave her on the October patch.


How to fix and buff Kitana:
First of all, let me start by saying that by no means kitana is "low tier" or that "she sucks". Because if this is what you understood...you are completely mistaken. She is balanced but she definitely needs some help here and there.

General buffs:

• S1 has now reduced recovery to 14-15 frames.
• 12 has reduced recovery as well.
• Maybe make 12D2 plus on block (?).
• S2 is now 9-10 frames to allow for different punishment options.
• S4 is now made somewhat useful.
• B4 now has increased range. It serves absolutely no purpose and the range is god damn awful.
• Β1 has increased range and is now 11 frames.
• B2 is now 15 frames or keep it as it is at 17.
• B231 now knocks the opponent down if it catches them mid-air.
• F2 doesnt get low profiled anymore.
• Fan toss has more advantage on hit. Making it easier to convert mid screen or in the corner.
• Make ground war base for all variations FFS.

Variation changes:
As long as the things i've mentioned happen to a certain degree then i suggest the following:

Fan Fare (this variation highlights Kitanas frame data weaknesses):

• IF ground war is made base then maybe add upwards fan to allow for more damage and conversions.
• Royal protection can now be amplified to absorb multiple projectiles OR make us be able to hold it down to absorb more than one projectile.
• B231 KB is now triggered if the whole string is a kounter or a punish (Variation specific)

Highborn :

• Slightly increase the raw teleport damage from 50->80
• Razors chip damage toned down a little bit.
• Gutted is now -10 on block and the KB triggers if every attack from the "Half blood stance" ability has been performed successfully.
• Less plus frames on block from the seeking sai.
• Less advantage hit on razors.

Fearless :
- Fan nado can now be amplified to connect it with strings like 12, B231 or to connect it mid-air.

In conclusion, i believe those changes would greatly help Kitana, without making her overpowered or a pain in the @$$ to fight.

Discuss.

 

[xKhaoTik]

S2 is now 9-10 frames to allow for different punishment options.

This. Definitely this. Fearless would benefit from this GREATLY.

B231 now knocks the opponent down if it catches them mid-air.

Considering the attack animation of the last hit is in an upwards motion, it wouldn’t make sense for it to knock down. I’ve always said that b2 should splat, like how Sonya’s b12 does. Or let b2 juggle like how Sindel’s F4 does

Highborn

You gutted highborn lol

Fan nado can now be amplified to connect it with strings like 12, B231 or to connect it mid-air.

Yes.

 

[Dramatique]

Fearless :
- Fan nado can now be amplified to connect it with strings like 12, B231 or to connect it mid-air.

This with combination of minor buffs to pokes and hit advantage on fans would make Fearless like actual Kitana we like. But i honestly want in to connect without amplifying, would've been great.
Also B1 being 11 frames would been amazing and help alot.

 

[M2Dave]

I was watching Starcharger's video yesterday and I am reading your thread now and I am genuinely stunned and perplexed. Again, aside from @xKhaoTik, none of you make any sense to me whatsoever because none of your issues apply to Highborn.

- Shimmies (Hope i wrote it correctly). In this game, where it is already hard for most of the cast to open up the opponent, having a shimmy does wonders. Characters like Cassie, Scorpion, Baraka, Erron, Jacqui, Cetrion, Liu Kang, Kabal etc have a lot of potential to open up their opponent with shimmies using their 111 or 112 or whatever the character has, since the opponent might think you are going for a throw as the animation between S1 and throw is similar OR they are trying to counter you with their moves. Kitana DOES NOT have any shimmy potential outside her Highborn variation (where you might be able to cancel her s12 into a throw). Her only "shimmy" option is her B2 (Starts at 17 frames so rip) , which im not gonna lie, it catches a lot of people off guard.

Kitana's shimmy is 1,2 xx razors, which is safe on block, if not neutral or advantageous, and +16 on hit if you confirm and stop after the first razor.

- Mix ups. Now...this is definitely not JUST a kitana problem, but she is also affected by it. Outside of "Fanfare" (which offers NO mixup potential). The only variation that gives her "true" mixups is "Fearless" , Highborn to some degree as well, and even if she SUCCEEDS to mix up the opponent, not only does it leads to poor damage but it also requires a bar for it. That variation also takes away your ability to make punishes hurt in general and its mainly used for zoning, in a game where zoning isnt the best. Not having either shimmies or mixups (or they are too costly), when some characters i've mentioned before either have mixups or shimmies, REALLY hurts kitana and those 2 issues can be particularly seen on a high-mid level where the opponent is more than ready for whatever you do.

All characters in this game have a mix up using their throws and strikes. While Kitana has no krushing blows on either throw and the strikes are slower in contrast to certain other characters, she has the ability to perform damaging ground combos that leave the opponent at a significant disadvantage.

b+1,4 xx razors does 22% of damage and is more than +20 on hit. If you throw afterward, you do 36% of inescapable damage. If the opponent attempts to neutral crouch, you do 44% of damage with another b+1,4 xx razors, which loops the scenario.

How do these options qualify as "poor damage that requires bar"?

- Pokes. Aside from shimmies and mixups, kitanas pokes are also bad in general. The only good poke she has is d3 (and yes that shit of a poke low profiles, its annoying i know). However even if her D3 is good, the range is awful. Her D1 is 9 frames...like 9 frames (and its -7 on block, so you cant mash it). Her D4 is meh and you need to space yourself correctly most of the time for your opponent to be "Afraid" of it. Also not mashable. HOWEVER.... i want to say that i dont want to see kitanas pokes change and you might as well ask WHY? Because this is how EVERY characters pokes should be like. Not mashable and used to gain space. Not being able to do D1,D1,D1,D1,D4,D4,D4,D4 5 times in a row. IF they were to change her poke frames, i'd definitely like to see her D1 faster and her D4 faster as well, or are less minus on block.

So you would like to keep the best low-profiling poke in the game in addition to buffing d+1 and d+4? Why?

- Neutral control. Kitana does not dominate the neutral at all. She sure does cover space with her B231 until the opponent jumps. Then we all know what happens. Aside from her B231, her B14-B131 are her other whiff punishers or combo starters. However...the range is really limited and you REALLY have to be on point to whiff punish with B1. Sometimes trying to whiff punish with B231 doesnt work because of its slow start up and B14 doesnt cover a lot of space so...you have to be on point as i said.

Kitana has strong neutral control with fan toss, amplified fan toss, aerial fan toss, jump kick, and razors. In general, she controls the pace of the match up very well against most characters while also being formidable up close.

In conclusion, i believe those changes would greatly help Kitana, without making her overpowered or a pain in the @$$ to fight.

Those changes would greatly hurt Kitana as you are normalizing the character's best variation.

Recommending hitbox fixes is welcome, but I suggest you allow NRS to balance the game instead of playing the developer by recommending nonsensical, bizarre, and/or purposeless buffs.

 

[John_NX]

This. Definitely this. Fearless would benefit from this GREATLY.
Considering the attack animation of the last hit is in an upwards motion, it wouldn’t make sense for it to knock down. I’ve always said that b2 should splat, like how Sonya’s b12 does. Or let b2 juggle like how Sindel’s F4 does

You gutted highborn lol

Yes.

I also agree with the B231 changes that you suggest. Its pretty much what i also suggested.
I "gutted" highborn only because shes probably gonna get universally buffed and ANY buff thats given to her will automatically buff highborn. We dont need to be braindead. Also... the "gutted" nerf is because i'd like for them to change the KB requirement

 

[John_NX]

I was watching Starcharger's video yesterday and I am reading your thread now and I am genuinely stunned and perplexed. Again, aside from @xKhaoTik, none of you make any sense to me whatsoever because none of your issues apply to Highborn.



Kitana's shimmy is 1,2 xx razors, which is safe on block, if not neutral or advantageous, and +16 on hit if you confirm and stop after the first razor.



All characters in this game have a mix up using their throws and strikes. While Kitana has no krushing blows on either throw and the strikes are slower in contrast to certain other characters, she has the ability to perform damaging ground combos that leave the opponent at a significant disadvantage.

b+1,4 xx razors does 22% of damage and is more than +20 on hit. If you throw afterward, you do 36% of inescapable damage. If the opponent attempts to neutral crouch, you do 44% of damage with another b+1,4 xx razors, which loops the scenario.

How do these options qualify as "poor damage that requires bar"?



So you would like to keep the best low-profiling poke in the game in addition to buffing d+1 and d+4? Why?



Kitana has strong neutral control with fan toss, amplified fan toss, aerial fan toss, jump kick, and razors. In general, she controls the pace of the match up very well against most characters while also being formidable up close.



Those changes would greatly hurt Kitana as you are normalizing the character's best variation.

Recommending hitbox fixes is welcome, but I suggest you allow NRS to balance the game instead of playing the developer by recommending nonsensical, bizarre, and/or purposeless buffs.

Okay lets see..
As you said, im not talking about ONLY highborn in this thread. Yes its the only variation that offers kitana shimmies and yes it does lead to unblockable damage as you mention but you HAVE to spend resources on it, when other characters dont spend to open you up. And past the highborn discussion, what about her other variations?
You also mention that kitana has strong neutral control with her tools etc etc AND RAZORS. So you are talking about highborn again and i'll say it again...this isnt a HIGHBORN discussion. Also its not just kitana that has tools in the neutral, its pretty much the entire cast. What im trying to say is that there are characters at the moment that do what kitana does 2 times better. For example, kabal.
Poke wise, i said i dont want them to buff her pokes. I said what i would like ONLY IF. And how exactly am i "hurting" her when im also buffing and nerfing her at the same time?
You also claim to have seen Starcharges video who highlightes her issues EVEN better than i do and yet you are "Stunned"? By what thing exactly? Him telling the truth? Do you even play Kitana to see how shes doing and what she lacks or what she does well? Also stop with the attitude "Booo why are you making a thread when you dont know what you are talking about" you sound like what im saying is absolutely wrong. So if you think my "buffs" and suggestions are "Braindead" then try to reason.

 

[xKhaoTik]

I also agree with the B231 changes that you suggest. Its pretty much what i also suggested.
I "gutted" highborn only because shes probably gonna get universally buffed and ANY buff thats given to her will automatically buff highborn. We dont need to be braindead. Also... the "gutted" nerf is because i'd like for them to change the KB requirement

I see what you’re saying. The nerfs you suggested for Highborn would ruin Highborn tho. Razors IS Highborn. You hit with razors and now the opponent has to guess between an attack or throw. If you nerf that, you take away a big part of Highborn’s gameplay.

But at the same time, Kitana is in a weird spot because any type of universal buff she gets just makes Highborn better.

I wish they would just sit down and focus on the other 2 variations. Highborn is boring af but it’s the best of what we have and I don’t think they should nerf it.

I’m also really shocked at how no one mentioned Lift being breakable. That needs to go ASAP

 

[John_NX]

I see what you’re saying. The nerfs you suggested for Highborn would ruin Highborn tho. Razors IS Highborn. You hit with razors and now the opponent has to guess between an attack or throw. If you nerf that, you take away a big part of Highborn’s gameplay.

But at the same time, Kitana is in a weird spot because any type of universal buff she gets just makes Highborn better.

I wish they would just sit down and focus on the other 2 variations. Highborn is boring af but it’s the best of what we have and I don’t think they should nerf it.

I’m also really shocked at how no one mentioned Lift being breakable. That needs to go ASAP

Okay, yeah i understand what you mean...I'm just afraid that if she gets similar buffs to what I mentioned...it's gonna become crazily good and I don't want ANY character , including my main to be braindead. So that's why I mentioned nerfs. Maybe don't touch the plus frames on hit...but she must be fair.
Also...the lift is a meterless launcher. Maybe that's why? I'm not sure either lmao.

 

[M2Dave]

Okay lets see..
As you said, im not talking about ONLY highborn in this thread. Yes its the only variation that offers kitana shimmies and yes it does lead to unblockable damage as you mention but you HAVE to spend resources on it, when other characters dont spend to open you up. And past the highborn discussion, what about her other variations?
You also mention that kitana has strong neutral control with her tools etc etc AND RAZORS. So you are talking about highborn again and i'll say it again...this isnt a HIGHBORN discussion. Also its not just kitana that has tools in the neutral, its pretty much the entire cast. What im trying to say is that there are characters at the moment that do what kitana does 2 times better. For example, kabal.
Poke wise, i said i dont want them to buff her pokes. I said what i would like ONLY IF. And how exactly am i "hurting" her when im also buffing and nerfing her at the same time?
You also claim to have seen Starcharges video who highlightes her issues EVEN better than i do and yet you are "Stunned"? By what thing exactly? Him telling the truth? Do you even play Kitana to see how shes doing and what she lacks or what she does well? Also stop with the attitude "Booo why are you making a thread when you dont know what you are talking about" you sound like what im saying is absolutely wrong. So if you think my "buffs" and suggestions are "Braindead" then try to reason.

If the discussion does not revolve around Highborn, then stop trying to ruin the variation. I am not telling you anything different than what KhaoTik is telling you above.

I believe Fan-Fare and Fearless are limited and could use some buffs that are specific to each variation. I know what would make them strong without implementing any universal changes, but the last thing the Kitana forum needs is another buff thread.

What NRS will definitely not do is what you (and Starcharger) are suggesting, which is giving Kitana 20 buffs in one single patch. You are either ignorant of the fact of or you fundamentally misunderstand how NRS have been patching this game since its release. No character has ever received such quantity of buffs in one patch. I mean, what do you expect? Kitana to be treated like Takeda in Mortal Kombat X?

If you want NRS to take this thread seriously, make a couple of suggestions for Fan-Fare and Fearless that are feasible.

 

[Baconlord]

Okay lets see..
As you said, im not talking about ONLY highborn in this thread. Yes its the only variation that offers kitana shimmies and yes it does lead to unblockable damage as you mention but you HAVE to spend resources on it, when other characters dont spend to open you up.

Wait hold up. What resources does highborn need to spend?

 

[DarkSado]

-I personally think they should remove the parry move from FF and replace with Ediena twist also change the input to down down-back back that way it will make Ground War even better since those the only 2 special move can be use grounded.

• Increase the damage output of FF.
• make her other string useful like 212 being 9 frames would help.

 

[John_NX]

Wait hold up. What resources does highborn need to spend?

Doesn't Highborn need to spend defensive resources to keep up the pressure and to do shimmies?

 

[Baconlord]

Doesn't Highborn need to spend defensive resources to keep up the pressure and to do shimmies?

not really. razors is one of the few tools in this game that can give you plus frames without spending any meter, the only thing you can really spend meter on in her pressure is with sai cancel but that's only a small part of her pressure.

 

[Edmund]

changes I’d like to see to fearless:

1. More options to combo into fan Nado
2. Change the KB on her twist or remove it and add a KB to one of her throws
3. Allow for more follow up after landing a Amplified Fan Toss in the air
4. Make some of her dial in strings less dial in OR give more use to the variety we have access to (such as being able to land an amplified air toss fan after connecting the move where kitana kicks the opponent into the air, i forget the input now)

 

[xKhaoTik]

Doesn't Highborn need to spend defensive resources to keep up the pressure and to do shimmies?

Yea and no. Razor pressure is better than sai cancel pressure.

 

[Starcharger28]

Hi everyone. I've been meaning to create this thread for a while now but i honestly never gotten to do it. As a kitana main i'd like to talk about the issues that kitana is having at the moment im writing this thread (7/12/19) since we dont know what the future holds for us.

General issues:
Playing this game for over 7 months now and playing with people of ALL skills, i've come to realise why and how some characters make it up so far into the tier list and why and how some characters win easier or have an easier time in general. I'd like to compare those "advantages" with kitana.

- Shimmies (Hope i wrote it correctly). In this game, where it is already hard for most of the cast to open up the opponent, having a shimmy does wonders. Characters like Cassie, Scorpion, Baraka, Erron, Jacqui, Cetrion, Liu Kang, Kabal etc have a lot of potential to open up their opponent with shimmies using their 111 or 112 or whatever the character has, since the opponent might think you are going for a throw as the animation between S1 and throw is similar OR they are trying to counter you with their moves. Kitana DOES NOT have any shimmy potential outside her Highborn variation (where you might be able to cancel her s12 into a throw). Her only "shimmy" option is her B2 (Starts at 17 frames so rip) , which im not gonna lie, it catches a lot of people off guard.

SC: All true. B2 isn't really a good shimmy move at all given the startup that you touched up on as well as the fact that 0 on block for her at any range is completely pointless given the nature of her grounded normals (D1, 3, 4, etc), movement, et al.

- Mix ups. Now...this is definitely not JUST a kitana problem, but she is also affected by it. Outside of "Fanfare" (which offers NO mixup potential). The only variation that gives her "true" mixups is "Fearless" , Highborn to some degree as well, and even if she SUCCEEDS to mix up the opponent, not only does it leads to poor damage but it also requires a bar for it. That variation also takes away your ability to make punishes hurt in general and its mainly used for zoning, in a game where zoning isnt the best. Not having either shimmies or mixups (or they are too costly), when some characters i've mentioned before either have mixups or shimmies, REALLY hurts kitana and those 2 issues can be particularly seen on a high-mid level where the opponent is more than ready for whatever you do.

SC: True yet again. Her mixup game in Fearless is also fairly telegraphed since every and anything she does is a reactable Low-high fuzzy while her mixup game in highborn is dependent on stance changes (That you can hit her out of) and hitting the opponent with the razors to really get the pressure on.

- Pokes. Aside from shimmies and mixups, kitanas pokes are also bad in general. The only good poke she has is d3 (and yes that shit of a poke low profiles, its annoying i know). However even if her D3 is good, the range is awful. Her D1 is 9 frames...like 9 frames (and its -7 on block, so you cant mash it). Her D4 is meh and you need to space yourself correctly most of the time for your opponent to be "Afraid" of it. Also not mashable. HOWEVER.... i want to say that i dont want to see kitanas pokes change and you might as well ask WHY? Because this is how EVERY characters pokes should be like. Not mashable and used to gain space. Not being able to do D1,D1,D1,D1,D4,D4,D4,D4 5 times in a row. IF they were to change her poke frames, i'd definitely like to see her D1 faster and her D4 faster as well, or are less minus on block.

SC: The only 2 ways in hell I'd say that it would be ok to leave her grounded normals as they are is if:

1. everyone else's are changed to be the exact same in nature (Frames wise. Which won't happen)
2. If the suggested changes mentioned recently come to fruition that more than make up for that weakness (Another TBC)

Outside of that, I'd much prefer her to be able to play the game much better in that regard so that she's given an equal chance to win.


- Neutral control. Kitana does not dominate the neutral at all. She sure does cover space with her B231 until the opponent jumps. Then we all know what happens. Aside from her B231, her B14-B131 are her other whiff punishers or combo starters. However...the range is really limited and you REALLY have to be on point to whiff punish with B1. Sometimes trying to whiff punish with B231 doesnt work because of its slow start up and B14 doesnt cover a lot of space so...you have to be on point as i said.

SC: From her normals perspective, yes, it's nearly impossible to dictate much of anything from midscreen. Her specials, however, can equalize things depending on what variation is used and how well the corresponding matchup is being played. That said, her ability to really instigate or initiate any kind of pressure that the opponent has to respect, leaves much to be desired (Especially when compared to her past iterations in MKX & 9 Respectively. But that's a different story). F2, B2, B3, B1, D4, D1, etc. are just to exploitable and can find ways to do more harm than good.

Recent buffs:
I've seen a lot of discussion on TYM, Reddit and other websites, that the recent buffs Kitana received are either "undeserved" "Unnecessary" "Overpowered". Even 16bit said that Kitana was the "Most changed character" in that patch and quite honestly...i dont see it how that is true or how people say those comments about her buffs. YES, the changes did help kitana in general but those were QOL changes and not specific changes to her frame data that she desperately needs. If anything i believe she got some changes that should have been BASE, without having to make those changes. It's also quite funny because she was nerfed on day 1 and they removed a lot of things they gave her on the October patch.

SC: 1) Folks on Reddit, of all places, are usually idiots of the worst kind. 2) Some of the folks on here (Especially if they think that this character is viable in a high level environment offline without having competed with her) are no better. 3) Yes, most of the changes made for her up to now have been nothing more than fixes rather than true buffs for her character. 4) Base changes are without question the only way to get her going in the right direction alongside a couple of variation specific changes.

How to fix and buff Kitana:
First of all, let me start by saying that by no means kitana is "low tier" or that "she sucks". Because if this is what you understood...you are completely mistaken. She is balanced but she definitely needs some help here and there.

General buffs:

• S1 has now reduced recovery to 14-15 frames. (QOL change/good little buff)
• 12 has reduced recovery as well. (On whiff or on block?)
• Maybe make 12D2 plus on block (?). (Great change. Since 12D2 has 2 major gaps for flawless blocks, This would do her some favors depending on the block adv)
• S2 is now 9-10 frames to allow for different punishment options. (Good change but would only reap benefits if 21434 was air sp cancellable)
• S4 is now made somewhat useful. (Agreed Wholeheartedly)
• B4 now has increased range. It serves absolutely no purpose and the range is god damn awful. (The move sucks but I'd much rather have another normal get buffed than this one. like B3 for example)
• Β1 has increased range and is now 11 frames. (Intriguing change! I would have said no to only 11 (Because 9-10 would be better suited for it) frames but with further range, this would be interesting.)
• B2 is now 15 frames or keep it as it is at 17. (If you did this then you'd have two 15f Forward advancing mids. Make B2 Splat airborne opponents and you're good)
• B231 now knocks the opponent down if it catches them mid-air. (See above but just apply to B2)
• F2 doesnt get low profiled anymore. (HALLELUJA!)
• Fan toss has more advantage on hit. Making it easier to convert mid screen or in the corner. (Would be nice to see this with both versions. However if fannado got buffed to be able to be cancelled out of anything, then make air fan more adv on hit in air and call it a day. Definitely)
• Make ground war base for all variations FFS. (Would be nice for Fearless but kind of unneccesary for Highborn. Still, it should have been done on day one)

Variation changes:
As long as the things i've mentioned happen to a certain degree then i suggest the following:

Fan Fare (this variation highlights Kitanas frame data weaknesses):

• IF ground war is made base then maybe add upwards fan to allow for more damage and conversions. (Interesting idea but not the most pressing (Just imo))
• Royal protection can now be amplified to absorb multiple projectiles OR make us be able to hold it down to absorb more than one projectile. (Absolutely agree with this. If Erron Black can have scud shot auto parry anything like this, why not let us have this ability with resources?)
• B231 KB is now triggered if the whole string is a kounter or a punish (Variation specific) (Would be nice but I'd much rather apply this to F234. Getting that KB is a true pain)

Highborn :

• Slightly increase the raw teleport damage from 50->80 (Not necessary (just IMO))
• Razors chip damage toned down a little bit. (I'm torn on this one but I think it's good as is. Especially since there are ways around the razors that are being exposed)
• Gutted is now -10 on block and the KB triggers if every attack from the "Half blood stance" ability has been performed successfully. (I don't agree with the Gutted change but I do agree with the KB ability change)
• Less plus frames on block from the seeking sai. (The only way this would be done is if it fell faster after she tosses it. Which would actually be more of a buff than anything.)
• Less advantage hit on razors. (As much as I hate this variation (It's aesthetic among other things), Can't greenlight this one chief. That would wreck this variation as it stands)

Fearless :
- Fan nado can now be amplified to connect it with strings like 12, B231 or to connect it mid-air. (Absolutely Yes to the overall idea, no on the execution. Amplifications don't improve startup times of the base moves. Just make it to where she can hit confirm into Fan nado from those normals and everything else and she's golden)

In conclusion, i believe those changes would greatly help Kitana, without making her overpowered or a pain in the @$$ to fight.

Discuss.

Gave my $.02 about your list of changes In Blue. Overall, You hit a lot of good points on the head and if anyone in this forum has used her in any high level offline scenario AT ALL, they'd know the truth to this. There's a reason why even Sonic said that Kitana isn't that high of a threat. That said, great thread breh.

 

[John_NX]

Gave my $.02 about your list of changes In Blue. Overall, You hit a lot of good points on the head and if anyone in this forum has used her in any high level offline scenario AT ALL, they'd know the truth to this. There's a reason why even Sonic said that Kitana isn't that high of a threat. That said, great thread breh.

Thank you so much for the constructive feedback! A lot of questionable nerfs I have listed are because if she gets universal buffs, she also needs to be normalised in some other ways. And to answer your question on Reducing the recovery on her S12, I would suppose whiff? Also a question, how would you buff fanfare?

 

[John_NX]

Yea and no. Razor pressure is better than sai cancel pressure.

I find highborns pressure with razors to be way too inconsistent for me to rely on.

 

[Skylight1]

I find highborns pressure with razors to be way too inconsistent for me to rely on.

There's a YouTube video by MKS where he delves into all of her issues and how highborn seems to be bad because of it and one of the issues he touched was how inconsistent razor pressure was.

 

[DarksydeDash]

You do not touch Highborne.

The variation is good but any positive changes or nerfs is unneeded for that variation.

I agree with most of the frame data changes (especially b2 grounding airborne opponents) but Fearless doesnt need a combo off most of Kitana's strings because that's what the corner is for, and most of.her damage comes from raw fannados anyway.

Fanfare is what needs help the most and while that parry change would help, it doesn't fix the variation's core problems.

So, the only major buffs we need are fanfare exclusively and all I feel.it would need is this:

- opponent can't break away from fan lift anymore

- Allow Ground war to be amp'd on block and be like -8 with pushback.

There's a YouTube video by MKS where he delves into all of her issues and how highborn seems to be bad because of it and one of the issues he touched was how inconsistent razor pressure was.

Actually the randomness is why its so good. I dunno how many razors will hit you at this time, due to if you're stand or crouch blocking, I don't know the frame data because it's super random outside the corner, I don't know how long I'm gonna hold the button in neutral or forward, and at anytime, I can just cancel it with stance while you're guessing.

 

[Konqrr]

Highborn :

• Less advantage hit on razors.

Dear God no... This is her only saving grace in Highborn TBH. If you get caught, you have to hold the next incoming attack. This variation has NO damage without this move and the advantage on hit makes it worth it.

 

[Tony at Home]

Kitana buff thread

"Nerf her best variation"

Fucking what

 

[John_NX]

Kitana buff thread

"Nerf her best variation"

Fucking what

If she receives the QOL buffs that I've given her, Highborn will be crazily good. Besides, I'm fine with not touching her plus frames after Razors and Sai, but gutted in my opinion needs to be punishable as long as they change the KB requirements. As it stands it's already -7 with pushback.

 

[DixieFlatline78]

Let's nerf her best variation to bring the other two up to speed

Wack

Kitana's just a boring character tbh and I could give a fuck less if shes low tier. Her design in this game is so uninspired and generic. The only interesting thing about her is her godawful hurtboxes

Also:

Her only "shimmy" option is her B2 (Starts at 17 frames so rip) , which im not gonna lie, it catches a lot of people off guard.

Sounds like it's a pretty good shimmy then

 

[Starcharger28]

You do not touch Highborne.

The variation is good but any positive changes or nerfs is unneeded for that variation.

I agree with most of the frame data changes (especially b2 grounding airborne opponents) but Fearless doesnt need a combo off most of Kitana's strings because that's what the corner is for, and most of.her damage comes from raw fannados anyway.

Fanfare is what needs help the most and while that parry change would help, it doesn't fix the variation's core problems.

So, the only major buffs we need are fanfare exclusively and all I feel.it would need is this:

- opponent can't break away from fan lift anymore

- Allow Ground war to be amp'd on block and be like -8 with pushback.



Actually the randomness is why its so good. I dunno how many razors will hit you at this time, due to if you're stand or crouch blocking, I don't know the frame data because it's super random outside the corner, I don't know how long I'm gonna hold the button in neutral or forward, and at anytime, I can just cancel it with stance while you're guessing.

We aren't even 20 minutes into this new day and I'm reading this hyper-uneducated take on these variations... WTF?