Match-up Discussion Kenshi Matchup Discussion Thread

[Konqrr]

I realize that there might be a matchup thread already in this forum, but the point of this thread is to discuss matchups to make the Matchup Chart as accurate as possible.

The Matchup Chart thread:
http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?3075-Mortal-Kombat-(2011)-Matchup-Chart

When you discuss or list what you think the matchups are, please do so in alphabetical order. Also, they should be listed in either whole numbers or .5 notations.

The current Matchup Chart for Kenshi is as follows:
vs Baraka
vs Cyber Sub-Zero
vs Cyrax
vs Ermac
vs Freddy Krueger
vs Jade
vs Jax
vs Johnny Cage
vs Kabal
vs Kano
vs Kitana
vs Kung Lao
vs Liu Kang
vs Mileena
vs Nightwolf
vs Noob Saibot
vs Quan Chi
vs Raiden
vs Rain
vs Reptile
vs Scorpion
vs Sektor
vs Shang Tsung
vs Sheeva
vs Sindel
vs Skarlet
vs Smoke
vs Sonya Blade
vs Stryker
vs Sub-Zero

 

[xxteefxx]

Konqurr. Awsm work on doing this in every thread. thnx

hmm i will post up a biased / not very accurate numbers. though, the ones i am sure of or played them a lot or in progress, i will put "*" Astrix mark on them

Kenshi VS Opponent:

6-4 vs Baraka * (positive of this number)
5.5-4.5 vs Cyber Sub-Zero*
5-5 vs Cyrax
6-4 vs Ermac * (positive about this number)
?? vs Freddy Krueger
5 -5vs Jade
6-4 vs Jax *
5-5 vs Johnny Cage *
5-5 vs Kabal * (still in progress)
6-4 vs Kano* (Positive about this number)
6-4 vs Kitana*
4-6 vs Kung Lao *
4-6 vs Liu Kang * (Positive about this number)
6-4 vs Mileena * (positive about this number)
4-6 vs Nightwolf * (still in progress with Lord of the flies)
5-5 vs Noob Saibot
5-5 vs Quan Chi *
5-5 vs Raiden
5-5 vs Rain*
5-5 vs Reptile*
6-4 vs Scorpion (still in progress)
4-6 vs Sektor (still in progress)
?? vs Shang Tsung
6-4 vs Sheeva*
6-4 vs Sindel *
?? vs Skarlet
3-7 vs Smoke* (still in progress)
5-5 vs Sonya Blade*
6-4 vs Stryker* (positive of this number)
6-4 vs Sub-Zero* (positive of this number)

 

[Ashenar]

How do you get these numbers just wondering.

 

[xxteefxx]

hmmm...setting on my ass all day every day, going places,practice mode and online playing MK9 with kenshi lol

pretty much it's experience. everyone should do that so we can get basic understanding of how/what are the match ups scores....or do you think their might be another way?

 

[Ashenar]

Ahh that's cool man. Was just wondering about the process is all. Keep up the good work I guess?

 

[Eight]

Konqurr. Awsm work on doing this in every thread. thnx

hmm i will post up a biased / not very accurate numbers. though, the ones i am sure of or played them a lot or in progress, i will put "*" Astrix mark on them

Kenshi VS Opponent:

6-4 vs Baraka * (positive of this number)
5.5-4.5 vs Cyber Sub-Zero*
5-5 vs Cyrax
6-4 vs Ermac * (positive about this number)
?? vs Freddy Krueger
5 -5vs Jade
6-4 vs Jax *
5-5 vs Johnny Cage *
4-6 vs Kabal * (still in progress)
6-4 vs Kano* (Positive about this number)
6-4 vs Kitana*
4-6 vs Kung Lao *
5-5 vs Liu Kang * (Positive about this number)
6-4 vs Mileena * (positive about this number)
4-6 vs Nightwolf * (still in progress with Lord of the flies)
5-5 vs Noob Saibot
5-5 vs Quan Chi *
4.5-5.5 vs Raiden
5-5 vs Rain*
5-5 vs Reptile*
6-4 vs Scorpion (still in progress)
4-6 vs Sektor (still in progress)
?? vs Shang Tsung
6-4 vs Sheeva*
6-4 vs Sindel *
?? vs Skarlet
4-6 vs Smoke* (still in progress)
5-5 vs Sonya Blade*
6-4 vs Stryker* (positive of this number)
6-4 vs Sub-Zero* (positive of this number)

Bolded my changes. Otherwise, I agree.

 

[xxteefxx]

hmmm , why would u give Lui kang 5 - 5? while kabal 6 - 4? or smoke 6 -4?

if it's for projectile, then kenshi counters both kabal projectile games. kabal is really not that great at range VS kenshi due to Projectile reflect/absorbtion, TKS and telefurry/ SC, and Armor mitigation. Making Kabal solely going offensive....and this is the Problem for kenshi

i think the problem with kenshi is offensive character and up close, correct? even smoke, you made him a bad matchup for kenshi because smoke nature is so aggressive.

so how come, Kabal and Smoke in this case have upper favor, while a Char like lui kang, very melee aggressive is 5 - 5?

care to explain?

 

[G4S MinotaurLord]

I agree that the Raiden matchup is difficult and that Smoke isn't as horribly in Smoke's favor as you originally stated. From my experience, Raiden's TP and EX Superman cause huge problems for Kenshi (individually, not as a teleport into superman strat obviously). Also, if I remember correctly, Smoke can't shake Kenshi's projectiles...I played a match online today and it looked like when the Smoke played tried to do that he just got hit, so either he let go right before or you can't shake it. Can anyone confirm this?

Also, I did the Shang matchup at some point today and it seemed pretty simple. I don't think Kenshi has problems with projectile-oriented characters with no wakeup game. Just my 2 cents.

 

[EVB SomeCubanGuy]

Konqurr. Awsm work on doing this in every thread. thnx

hmm i will post up a biased / not very accurate numbers. though, the ones i am sure of or played them a lot or in progress, i will put "*" Astrix mark on them

Kenshi VS Opponent:

6-4 vs Baraka * (positive of this number)
5.5-4.5 vs Cyber Sub-Zero*
5-5 vs Cyrax
6-4 vs Ermac * (positive about this number)
?? vs Freddy Krueger
5 -5vs Jade
6-4 vs Jax *
5-5 vs Johnny Cage *
5-5 vs Kabal * (still in progress)
6-4 vs Kano* (Positive about this number)
6-4 vs Kitana*
4-6 vs Kung Lao *
4-6 vs Liu Kang * (Positive about this number)
6-4 vs Mileena * (positive about this number)
4-6 vs Nightwolf * (still in progress with Lord of the flies)
5-5 vs Noob Saibot
5-5 vs Quan Chi *
5-5 vs Raiden
5-5 vs Rain*
5-5 vs Reptile*
6-4 vs Scorpion (still in progress)
4-6 vs Sektor (still in progress)
?? vs Shang Tsung
6-4 vs Sheeva*
6-4 vs Sindel *
?? vs Skarlet
3-7 vs Smoke* (still in progress)
5-5 vs Sonya Blade*
6-4 vs Stryker* (positive of this number)
6-4 vs Sub-Zero* (positive of this number)

Looks accurate. Only difference is I'd say Cyrax is 4-6 due to Net trade being in his favor, his damage output compared to Kenshi's, and Kenshi having to constantly stay mobile to avoid bombs (since he is stationary during any TK move, a random bomb will usually hit.)

Also Reptile is 4-6 since B+2~TK Shoulder frame trap doesn't work because of Elbow Dash. In face Elbow Dash alone gives Kenshi a lot of problems. It's also one of the only moves in the game that can punish TK Shoulder on block.

 

[The_Riddler]

Looks accurate. Only difference is I'd say Cyrax is 4-6 due to Net trade being in his favor, his damage output compared to Kenshi's, and Kenshi having to constantly stay mobile to avoid bombs (since he is stationary during any TK move, a random bomb will usually hit.)

Also Reptile is 4-6 since B+2~TK Shoulder frame trap doesn't work because of Elbow Dash. In face Elbow Dash alone gives Kenshi a lot of problems. It's also one of the only moves in the game that can punish TK Shoulder on block.

I disagree, I think Kenshi v. Reptile is 5-5. Once Kenshi scores a knockdown, he can do a pretty good job of keeping Reptile away. Reptile cannot outzone Kenshi, and if he tries to elbow dash, Kenshi can use a combination of Flurry and anticipatory TKS.

 

[fooloo]

the sindel matchup is funny because most sindels sit back and shoot fireballs at you while you can just reflect them. you'll build way more meter from all the reflections than sindel does fireballs

 

[JacopeX]

Up close, Kenshi has few options to get Liu Kang off when initiating his pressure game (which is one of the best in the game). And if he were to tackle Liu Kang to a distance, it would give Liu Kang a hard time zoning Kenshi from a medium-far distance. Liu Kang can get close with an Ex. Flying dragon kick if timed correctly on whiff of Kenshi's specials. This is pretty much what Kenshi is supposed to keep from happening and the best thing to do is keep Liu Kang at least at a medium distance. Kenshi's close range offense is pretty decent but Liu Kang has the edge. But Kenshi does not have to stay close in otder to land any attack on Liu Kang that is not special. Medium range would do just fine.

5-5

 

[EVB SomeCubanGuy]

I disagree, I think Kenshi v. Reptile is 5-5. Once Kenshi scores a knockdown, he can do a pretty good job of keeping Reptile away. Reptile cannot outzone Kenshi, and if he tries to elbow dash, Kenshi can use a combination of Flurry and anticipatory TKS.

That's true, but Reptile is such a versatile character that he doesn't need to zone in order to win matchups. TKS does beat Elbow Dash, but from my experience Flurry does not. Plus if TKS whiffs you get Elbow Dashed anyway. Reptile can also EN Dash to escape TKS pressure on wakeup I believe, which if you don't get hit by it, still puts him in your face. And if Reptile gets a knockdown, one Dash an he's right next to you on your wake up with a free jump in which basically means trouble since that's Kenshi's biggest weakness. Yeah it's true about Kenshi being able to control the match if he gets the knockdown, but the same can be said about Reptile, and from my experience it's much easier for Reptile to score a knockdown. I can see the argument for it being 5-5 tho...guess it's more like 4.5-5.5 then

 

[SwiftTomHanks]

Kabal adds an aspect that so far no other character does for Kenshi that I've seen... he can't reflect his low projectile! This little aspect makes the fight noticeably more difficult than others.

Mileena can throw a projectile and bait that you will reflect it; starting a roll or teleport right afterwords that WILL hit you if you reflect. While I don't think she has a huge advantage, Kenshi absolutely doesn't have a 6-4.

Other character's I've been fighting against offline:
Reptile: 5-5 (easier to zone, though he can punish your string that is advantage on block to everyone but him and Sonya)
Cage: 5-5 (reflect shitty projectiles, armor against pressure, good zone allowed)
Kung Lao: 5-5 (reflect low hat, bait teleport with a lift man, armor against pressure)
Kitana: 6-4 (reflecting fans disables her zone AND you have armor moves against her pressure AND she can't punish your shoulder dash or lift man)
Sub Zero: 6-4 (reflecting freeze really shuts down a huge aspect of his game)
Sonya: 6-4... maybe 5-5? (not sure why Sonya can get out of Kenshi's frame advantage trap, but she does 100% of the time)

 

[The_Riddler]

That's true, but Reptile is such a versatile character that he doesn't need to zone in order to win matchups. TKS does beat Elbow Dash, but from my experience Flurry does not. Plus if TKS whiffs you get Elbow Dashed anyway. Reptile can also EN Dash to escape TKS pressure on wakeup I believe, which if you don't get hit by it, still puts him in your face. And if Reptile gets a knockdown, one Dash an he's right next to you on your wake up with a free jump in which basically means trouble since that's Kenshi's biggest weakness. Yeah it's true about Kenshi being able to control the match if he gets the knockdown, but the same can be said about Reptile, and from my experience it's much easier for Reptile to score a knockdown. I can see the argument for it being 5-5 tho...guess it's more like 4.5-5.5 then

I feel like a lot of Reptile's game rests on getting a knockdown and releasing an EX slow forceball, then going in to pressure. Kenshi's EX Rising Karma is great for countering this due to multiple hits of armor, which leads to a launch and a decent combo and, most importantly, a knockdown. Then Kenshi can re-gain control of the match and Reptile has to find a new way in. A mid-TKS will stop an EX Dash from long range on Reptile's wakeup after a combo ending with Spirit Charge. Overall, it's a guessing game and a battle of positioning, but in my opinion it's 5-5.

 

[Evil_Riu48]

as of today based on all my offline fights with him

kenshi vs
cage 6-4
noob 5-5
sub 6-4
rain 6-4
kitana 6-4 ( this matchup is 7-3 if the kitana player does not know how to IAF )
raiden 4-6
cyrax 5-5
smoke 5-5
kabal 4-6
reptile 5-5

many people think scorpion is a bad matchup for kenshi. . . i personally do not think he is but i have yet to fight a good scorpion so i can not talk about that matchup

 

[Ashenar]

Just finshed playing some rounds with MK9 ULTRA GOD and his scorpion pretty much mopped the floor up with me it was hard to get reads and the presure from the ex telepunch and the 50/50 mix up with overhead or sweep was completely hard to guess up.

 

[Vilén]

Konqurr. Awsm work on doing this in every thread. thnx

hmm i will post up a biased / not very accurate numbers. though, the ones i am sure of or played them a lot or in progress, i will put "*" Astrix mark on them

Kenshi VS Opponent:

6-4 vs Baraka * (positive of this number)
5.5-4.5 vs Cyber Sub-Zero*
5-5 vs Cyrax
6-4 vs Ermac * (positive about this number)
?? vs Freddy Krueger
5 -5vs Jade
6-4 vs Jax *
5-5 vs Johnny Cage *
5-5 vs Kabal * (still in progress)
6-4 vs Kano* (Positive about this number)
6-4 vs Kitana*
4-6 vs Kung Lao *
4-6 vs Liu Kang * (Positive about this number)
6-4 vs Mileena * (positive about this number)
4-6 vs Nightwolf * (still in progress with Lord of the flies)
5-5 vs Noob Saibot
5-5 vs Quan Chi *
5-5 vs Raiden
5-5 vs Rain*
5-5 vs Reptile*
6-4 vs Scorpion (still in progress)
4-6 vs Sektor (still in progress)
?? vs Shang Tsung
6-4 vs Sheeva*
6-4 vs Sindel *
?? vs Skarlet
3-7 vs Smoke* (still in progress)
5-5 vs Sonya Blade*
6-4 vs Stryker* (positive of this number)
6-4 vs Sub-Zero* (positive of this number)

There are an absence of good Nightwolf players for me to know myself. Why is that matchup out of Kenshi's favor?

 

[xxteefxx]

Kenshi vs Nw is Nw wolf due to these basic reasons.

-cr+4 doesnt duck under his shoulders due to it's speed and short hit box
-In general, kenshi cannot low poke on jumpers form close, it doest change hit box. this might be a little bet of trouble due to shoulder charge smash to corner. so corner game is a little annoying
-Shoulder can duck under TKS. so if TKS were predicted, NW can approach easily. also it passes throw Tele furry
-EX shoulder is really good. this is anti Armor moves from Kenshi, due to the fast 2 hits from shoulder as well as Armor vs armor. so its all about speed. most of the time, NW will catch kenshi first
-NW is a great zoner and anti zoner due to his shoulder, Thunder and f+3,1 combo. in pressure and corner, he simply rapes Kenshi
- So risky to footsie with 2,1~ RK or and other due to shoulder and its safety on block
-Block RK is very punishable into traps and incomng big damage from NW due to his Fast uppercut, fast f+3,1 TC and again...shoulders


veyr annoying matchup in general...i am still working on it though. so far, from like FT5. i was able to win only 2 matches. If there's an offline source for me against such char like NW, i would've been able to judge better.

 

[The_Riddler]

teef, would you mind giving your opinion on the Kenshi vs. Raiden match-up?

 

[xxteefxx]

Hey riddler. Ya sure.

First of, i must say, i am not experienced in this match at ALL! i really find few Raidens in general (Especially online). Even when i wrote the matchup, i didnt astric raiden because i am still un certian about the matchup.

though couple of things i must say.

-VERY annoying match! raiden's teleport and torpedo EATS through all of Kenshi core game(range/zoning). EX torpedo goes through any armor even TKS in zoning game. TKS can stop/stuff regular Torpedo on startup. so kenhsi stopping torpedo from far away will be a little risky for kenshi(unless u are predicting torpedo and punishing it with either block or EX RK).
kenshi will have to use Med range TKS to stop Raidens torpedo's (not the far one). making it a guessing game, cause if raiden did teleport out of TKS, Kenshi will be Punished most of the time

-Armor RK can be a VERY good punisher against teleports. It stuff Torpedo's and any attack follow up after teleport. as well that EX RK is comlpetely safe on block. whether goin footsies or not to stop Raidens Teleport, as soon as raidens safe, he can be a major threat to kenshi.

-Any ex Teleport in the game have this annoying feature, were frame inputs after Raiden is on ground are delayed ,due to the fact that ur character will be switching positions twice! it's this stupid in game bug. so seriously, EX teleport is a BIG threat to kenshi. puting in mind that kenshi's cr+4 is aint that fast, u will be forced to poke with cr+1....and the attributes on this attack, is not as beneficial like either cr+3 or cr+4 (as well that it's easily blocked high)

- Vacinity trap and inf. block string works on kenshi due to his hitbox! which is so SO annoying as well...it keeps Kenshi pressured EASILY! not only that, it has a good potential of mix ups with teleport, which most of the time, throw off Kenshi!


that's all i know ... so srry!
I am still working on this matchup, though currently focusing on other characters first (like reptile, Shang, kabal,NW, Smoke and kung!) ....those are basic must know if i am goin to attend tournaments with kenshi.

and yes, i should be playin this matchup more often >_> lol....hope i was helpful by any means riddler with those few inputs i mentioned.

 

[REYTHEGREAT]

It looks like kenshi can hold his own pretty good then. Hey teef, I use raiden, not the best but if you want experience on that match up add me and I'll gladly play you.

 

[The_Riddler]

Hey riddler. Ya sure.

First of, i must say, i am not experienced in this match at ALL! i really find few Raidens in general (Especially online). Even when i wrote the matchup, i didnt astric raiden because i am still un certian about the matchup.

though couple of things i must say.

-VERY annoying match! raiden's teleport and torpedo EATS through all of Kenshi core game(range/zoning). EX torpedo goes through any armor even TKS in zoning game. TKS can stop/stuff regular Torpedo on startup. so kenhsi stopping torpedo from far away will be a little risky for kenshi(unless u are predicting torpedo and punishing it with either block or EX RK).
kenshi will have to use Med range TKS to stop Raidens torpedo's (not the far one). making it a guessing game, cause if raiden did teleport out of TKS, Kenshi will be Punished most of the time

-Armor RK can be a VERY good punisher against teleports. It stuff Torpedo's and any attack follow up after teleport. as well that EX RK is comlpetely safe on block. whether goin footsies or not to stop Raidens Teleport, as soon as raidens safe, he can be a major threat to kenshi.

-Any ex Teleport in the game have this annoying feature, were frame inputs after Raiden is on ground are delayed ,due to the fact that ur character will be switching positions twice! it's this stupid in game bug. so seriously, EX teleport is a BIG threat to kenshi. puting in mind that kenshi's cr+4 is aint that fast, u will be forced to poke with cr+1....and the attributes on this attack, is not as beneficial like either cr+3 or cr+4 (as well that it's easily blocked high)

- Vacinity trap and inf. block string works on kenshi due to his hitbox! which is so SO annoying as well...it keeps Kenshi pressured EASILY! not only that, it has a good potential of mix ups with teleport, which most of the time, throw off Kenshi!


that's all i know ... so srry!
I am still working on this matchup, though currently focusing on other characters first (like reptile, Shang, kabal,NW, Smoke and kung!) ....those are basic must know if i am goin to attend tournaments with kenshi.

and yes, i should be playin this matchup more often >_> lol....hope i was helpful by any means riddler with those few inputs i mentioned.

Thanks a lot. I appreciate it, and if you go into this match-up more in depth, post in here and we can share ideas.

 

[RWDY Nori]

I just noticed something REALLY stupid vs Kabal (might need to test this vs all chars w/a projectile). BF3 does NOT hit kabal AT ALL when he does his fireball!! It will whiff everytime, so now Kenshi's only way to keep him out is those overhead sword shit things, don't know what they are called. I'm calling this match right now 7-3 Kabal. One of his greatest zoning tools is useless

 

[xxteefxx]

This kabal matchup is annoying. But to be honest, not that horrible . i would give it 5- 5 for now, while i know it's 6 -4 actually. though my usual kabal friends are the top either online or offline, so i play against them a lot.

The problem i dont see it Zoning at all. it feels the same as if it's a projectile war against Noobsaibot, though it's toned down. Kabal up close is just too much!
and online as well doesnt help at all to fuzzy guard or react correctly against his MASSIVE guessing game(offense game).

The saws are annoying. Though One good reflect of energy ball can make Kenshi TKS. and then it's all guessing game from both side. IF Kabal tried to saw again , Kenshi will TKS again. if he tried to dash, now u will have to change the TKS into shorter distance. so it's both side monopoly.

If it did get annoying, Use armor Spirit Charge.....so in zoning game, it feels like a 50 / 50 to me. dont forget Kabal will only use meter for EX Saw on wake up or EX dash from far away. other than that, there are no other use! so kenshi Having meter will always be on his rule on far game.

now the annoyment comes when u either finish ur meter from zoning game (which is a BIG mistake), and that kabal approaches. this is were it gets HEAVY! kabal can just TEA BAG kenshi all day in close range. whether meter or not, kabal close range is nasty!

as for Telefurry....hmm i dont see it THAT great of a tool. yes it's usefull, but as well as VERY punishable by a lot of the cast. (whether EX or not)
Kabal for instant, can dash and catch kenshi. Mil can roll/teleport. Jade can kick closer or armor matigate in general. cyrax can air throw escape. Kitana Wave dash. Reptile Elbow dash. Subs can Slide.Skarlet wave Dash regular or ex....etc
so in my opinion, TKS prediction > Telefurry....atleast u can have control on were to hit and not get punished severely after in most cases. telefurry regular has the same Push back /stun effect of TKS and doesnt knock as well as duckable...so whats the point?

I see Telefurry very character specific in high level game. yes i know that it's useful and might play a stuff in and gambling game or forcing opponent to duck...and yes i know it's free against a lot of character that cant approach like baraka,sheeva..etc

but again, not to get out of the subject..Kabal matchup is ANNOYING for sure.