What's new

General/Other - Kano KANO IS LIKE, BOTTOM ZERO GUYS

FlappyDaniel

Snappin' spines all day e'ry day.
You're implying that any character is "Broken tier" right now, I would disagree with that first of all. Some are "High tier" but there are none that are just SO much better that they're broken.

if anything bringing the "lows" more in line with the "Highs" is more likely to make everybody "Mid"
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
I'm just saying what would be a better option. I would rather have the top characters nerfed... than everyone else also being broken tier. Then the game is no fun fighting against any character.
Well I don't know if I'd consider any character "broken" right now, but I agree I'd rather have the top brought down the the down brought up. It would make the game more technical as opposed to "hold my 5 second long pressure". But I would also like to win the lottery.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Most people ARE fine with Kano being mid tier, Youphykis. I don't think I've seen a post that says otherwise. The argument has been where he is, not That he should be tippy top tier.

And less than the norm.
Well the people that think he's low tier aren't fine with him being mid tier lol. And if people weren't fine with him where he stands then why are they asking for buffs?
I don't mind Kano being mid tier, I just want him to be a permanently viable mid tier at worst. Not slipping down the ladder patch after patch. Not to go up against Top tiers and have to face uphill battles in the majority of the MU's. Not to be complacent with his current version until everyone masters MU's and sees how lesser his toolset is in comparison to so many cast members. It's true I don't play him nearly as much as before, but that's because I want to win, and Tanya is more suited for that. I want to play him more like I used to, but the time+reward is not on the same level as many other characters, so I had to make a decision. My main issue resides in if I can get destroyed against a Raptor's Takeda, and then switching to Tanya makes it competitive, there is a clear gap in the character.

Now while I've said I don't think he needs "huge buffs", I definitely think he needs "some buffs". He has already slid down with buffs to Kenshi, Kitana, Shinnok, etc. Imagine if Tremor is good (highly likely), and in the next couple of patches he goes untouched (again), while the Goro's and Jacqui's get buffs. Then what? Patches are over and he's bottom 5? In what possible scenario does this work out for Kano long term if he gets "nothing" in the way that Grundy did?
If it's an "uphill battle" for you against the top tiers then you're not approaching some of these matchups properly. "uphill battles" happen when the matchup is like 3-7 bad which is not the case against any top tier I can think of. You made the decision to switch to a top tier, that does not mean Kano should be made top tier. Your wish is not NRS' command. I've said it before and I'll say it again, someone has to be mid tier so why can't you accept that that's Kano? ESPECIALLY when you've switched mains anyway.

For the love of god, you losing to one guy in one matchup does not make Kano bad. You switched to a top tier and did better, that's just logic. Anyone can do that, but that does not mean Kano is shit. Good players win matchups, stop relying on your character to win for you. I personally don't know the Takeda matchup inside out so I'm not going to talk extensively like I know it off by heart but I doubt it's as bad as you're making it out to be. I can see how Shirai Ryu would be a problem because he has a teleport but as I said I haven't played him in sets of 100 so I won't say anything for sure. Saying you lost the matchup and it's the character's fault, not yours, is a really scrubby excuse though (especially when we're only 3 months into the game's life) but I'm not here to take shots at you 'cause you're cool so we'll just not use the Takeda matchup as an argument because it's probably not been looked into enough yet.

If Jacqui gets touched Kano is most definitely getting touched that's not even an argument, Jacqui never gets anything good lol. (Side note: You might read this sentence wrong like I did when I reread it but you get what I mean haha)

Even if Kano does end up bottom 5, he's still viable. This is the most balanced game so far so overcoming matchups is not as hard as it was before. If you want to play to win and switch to a top tier then fine but why come and continue to complain about a character you chose to drop? Play Tanya, enjoy her, leave the Kanos to enjoy our character. If we think he's fine what's the problem? If the best players in the world think he's fine what's the problem? (Actually don't focus on that question too much, wasn't the greatest list but you get my point)
 
Who cares if it wouldn't make him top 10? Someone has to be mid tier, what's your problem with it being Kano? Why go the easy route of getting him buffed instead of just working on the matchups like Steve and Showtime and Flappy and I at least are doing? The thing that's making even less sense to me is why the majority of the people who've dropped the character for another are still complaining? They've made it clear they want to play other better/top tier characters yet somehow that isn't enough? What's the problem if you're not even playing him (most of the time anyway)? The Kanos that are sticking with him as a main are fine to do that because we think he's fine, he's not unviable or broken so what's the problem? Some of you want luxury buffs because it'd suit you and that's not a good enough reason. Fixes are fine, buffs aren't necessary because he doesn't lose every matchup and he isn't the worst in the game.

No it didn't, he doesn't play Commando Kano lol.

Well (and these are just a few examples) look at Kano's footsie tools compared to Raidens, Kano outshines him there. Kano can zone out/outzone D'Vorah and Jax pretty easily too. It's not about how many things the top tiers do better it's about what Kano can do that he does better than the top tiers. How he can control space well, how he has a great anti-air in a game where anti-airs are considered pretty shit in general, the damage he can do in Cutthroat and the stuff he can interrupt and punish with EX Buff into this damage, the armour-breaking zoning in Cybernetic, the 20% parries in Commando. So what if he's not the best character in the game? He works (mostly) and that should be enough, people shouldn't be relying on their character to win for them.

When you insinuate I think he needs less do you mean I think he should be nerfed or that you think I think he needs stuff but not as much as you guys are suggesting? And yes, Saltshaker and I, we cool ;)
Check out Krayzie's old streams. Tyrant was playing Commando Kano against Awesomo's Jax.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Well the people that think he's low tier aren't fine with him being mid tier lol. And if people weren't fine with him where he stands then why are they asking for buffs?

If it's an "uphill battle" for you against the top tiers then you're not approaching some of these matchups properly. "uphill battles" happen when the matchup is like 3-7 bad which is not the case against any top tier I can think of. You made the decision to switch to a top tier, that does not mean Kano should be made top tier. Your wish is not NRS' command. I've said it before and I'll say it again, someone has to be mid tier so why can't you accept that that's Kano? ESPECIALLY when you've switched mains anyway.

For the love of god, you losing to one guy in one matchup does not make Kano bad. You switched to a top tier and did better, that's just logic. Anyone can do that, but that does not mean Kano is shit. Good players win matchups, stop relying on your character to win for you. I personally don't know the Takeda matchup inside out so I'm not going to talk extensively like I know it off by heart but I doubt it's as bad as you're making it out to be. I can see how Shirai Ryu would be a problem because he has a teleport but as I said I haven't played him in sets of 100 so I won't say anything for sure. Saying you lost the matchup and it's the character's fault, not yours, is a really scrubby excuse though (especially when we're only 3 months into the game's life) but I'm not here to take shots at you 'cause you're cool so we'll just not use the Takeda matchup as an argument because it's probably not been looked into enough yet.

If Jacqui gets touched Kano is most definitely getting touched that's not even an argument, Jacqui never gets anything good lol. (Side note: You might read this sentence wrong like I did when I reread it but you get what I mean haha)

Even if Kano does end up bottom 5, he's still viable. This is the most balanced game so far so overcoming matchups is not as hard as it was before. If you want to play to win and switch to a top tier then fine but why come and continue to complain about a character you chose to drop? Play Tanya, enjoy her, leave the Kanos to enjoy our character. If we think he's fine what's the problem? If the best players in the world think he's fine what's the problem? (Actually don't focus on that question too much, wasn't the greatest list but you get my point)
I can see a few MU's becoming ugly as the game continues. It's hard to place numbers this early, but I can see Jax, Shinnok, Ermac, Liu, and Kenshi become, displeasing, in the future. Where as I can't really see Kano have a definitive advantage against any of the top or high tiers. Maybe Sonya? But that's possibly it. That's where I get my "uphill battles" comment from. Against the say Top 15, Kano appears to have either even or disadvantage MU's, with possibly 1 advantage MU??? We've seen how that story ends for characters in other games. You're right in the sense that if people are ok with that then they should play him, as long as they understand that is the case. I clearly wasn't, hence the Tanya switch.

I used that example to show the gap in the characters. Kano can't win the way Tanya can, because Kano has inferior tools in comparison. It's unanimous that Tanya is Top 5. For sake of argument let's say Kano is mid tier. Now I've never thought anything bad of the Takeda/Kano MU. Thought it was pretty even and only one Takeda (a very very skilled one) can beat me so convincingly in the MU. But how can I switch to a Top 5 and turn a 7-25 destruction of Kano to a 18-20 close set with Tanya? Am I that much better with Tanya than Kano? Is the MU actually not even? Is Tanya 8-2 against Takeda and only my lesser skill in comparison to his didn't win the set? Or, is it that the character is that much better allowing me to play better competitively? I remember Dave had something similar happen in Kano/D'Vorah to Tanya/D'Vorah when playing Honeybee. I used these examples to point out that either we were playing Kano incredibly wrong, or Tanya is that much better than Kano. And if she is that much better, then the gap should be moved a little closer between them, and between him and the top tiers. Unless you rather have less tools which is a different conversation altogether.

We both know Jacqui's next patch note will say something like "Jacqui's 121 string is now +2 from +1, to be in line with the rest of the standing 1 strings" lol. But someone is getting buffed next. Likely Goro, with possibly Takeda or Reptile may have already been in the works. Whoever it ends up being(s), there will be even more characters saying goodbye to Kano on their way up. Currently, maybe he is viable, 3 months into the game with limited MU exp and patches remaining. But what about in December? March? Next EVO? If he is surpassed by a few more characters he'll be undoubtedly low tier, because they will be the mid, high, and top. Currently, the game is balanced because it is not broken down yet. How many low tier characters can win in Injustice? No one was going to win with post patch Scorpion or Green Arrow. Tools too inferior to the cast. How many in MK9? No one was going to win with Stryker or KANO (lol), tools too inferior. How many low tiers win in most fighting games in general? Hell the only fighting game I can think of where low tiers can win is Tekken, and even then it's tough and rare. If he slips any further down, the dream is permanently dead. Time will solidify this from opinion into fact.
 

Vilén

too smart to play MKX
Maybe so, but when characters that are widely considered "fair and viable" are asking for buffs to "compete"... that tells me that the top is too busted.
Alternatively, those people might also be huge pussies.

This is the only place in the FGC where the majority of people posting clearly believe that tiers are the end all, be all of skill.

To the point that anyone doing well with any character will translate into a double-digit page discussion about whether or not that character is "top tier", because that's obviously the only way anyone could be doing well.

People asking for buffs to a "fair and viable" character isn't an indication that the top tier is too strong. The statement is inherently contradictory. If there's a "fair and viable" character that is not top tier, then the top tier is not too strong. Just from a realistic, logical and grammatical standpoint. You can't have "fair and viable" characters that aren't top tier in a game where the top tier is too strong.

Quan Chi is generally considered top five by everyone with a copy of this game and a pulse. There is still a campaign for this character to receive a reliable wakeup attack and/or a six frame d1. People are bugging for buffs on a character whose one negative is that you must block occasionally.

The problem with a lot of matchups is that most of the roster breaks down to having one solid variation, one meh variation and one "LOL why did they even bother?" variation. Shit would look very different if every character actually had all three of their variants performing as advertised. You'd be able to approach a lot of matchups very differently.

The thing that makes the top tier appear busted is the ugly reality that sometimes matchup knowledge means jack fuckin' shit. At some point you will simply lose the coin toss and end up in the corner with 40% of your health getting torn out of your asshole on the way there. That's barely a balance issue, it's a far-reaching design flaw. You can't nerf that in a meaningful without totally trashing the character. Then D'Vorah's #1 and it's a fight between "nerf D'Vorah" and "no, execution requirements = balance hurdydurdyduhr."

I just don't see any avail in handing out more nerfs. I also don't buy the argument that "if everyone was buffed to top tier guidelines the game wouldn't be any fun", it's bullshit because I've seen it in practice through years and years of Guilty Gear (won't speak to Xrd, can't be bothered with that game yet). Every character in that game was a walking impotent rage inducing clusterfuck. Absolutely no one had anything worse than a 6-4 matchup even on the worst day. MK will never be able to touch that. This was accomplished with the relatively simple premise of "this character plays like __________, so we're going to give this character everything they need to play like ___________"

Characters slip through the cracks in every title, though. Vanilla Accent Core Johnny had no positive matchups but he was never dealing with anything worse than a 4-6, which is completely fucking winnable in all respects. The only real justification for nerfing the top tier at this point over buffing clearly useless character is "because easy."

If anyone thinks this game's top tier is more unmanageable and a bigger problem than the amount of characters that just outright serve no real purpose at a competitive level, you are a dead-eyed agenda pusher at best and a whiney, disingenuous little shit at worst. The idea that if you nerfed Kung Lao, Raiden, Quan, Tanya, D'Vorah et cetera and did nothing else, that your Takedas, Jacquis, Goros, Jasons and Mileena's would somehow be any better, you're drunk. The shitty characters will still be shitty if they're left to be shitty. They'll just have other shitty characters to keep them company on Shit Mountain.

It will always be a problem in NRS titles because they see nothing wrong with some characters having everything and other characters having nothing. The top tier are the top tier mostly because they're put together well. There are just clearly some characters and variations designed with no love. That's the bigger issue.

You can't pretend that relativity isn't a factor on tier lists. It doesn't matter how you nerf or buff, there will always be top and bottom. Which means there will always be complaints.

Personally I'm of the contention that this game is utterly unsalvageable. I doubt they're done patching so maybe we can get "The Patch That Saved MKX" somewhere down the line, but... my hopes are low.
 
Last edited:

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Alternatively, those people might also be huge pussies.

This is the only place in the FGC where the majority of people posting clearly believe that tiers are the end all, be all of skill.

To the point that anyone doing well with any character will translate into a double-digit page discussion about whether or not that character is "top tier", because that's obviously the only way anyone could be doing well.

People asking for buffs to a "fair and viable" character isn't an indication that the top tier is too strong. The statement is inherently contradictory. If there's a "fair and viable" character that is not top tier, then the top tier is not too strong. Just from a realistic, logical and grammatical standpoint. You can't have "fair and viable" characters that aren't top tier in a game where the top tier is too strong.

Quan Chi is generally considered top five by everyone with a copy of this game and a pulse. There is still a campaign for this character to receive a reliable wakeup attack and/or a six frame d1. People are bugging for buffs on a character whose one negative is that you must block occasionally.

The problem with a lot of matchups is that most of the roster breaks down to having one solid variation, one meh variation and one "LOL why did they even bother?" variation. Shit would look very different if every character actually had all three of their variants performing as advertised. You'd be able to approach a lot of matchups very differently.

The thing that makes the top tier appear busted is the ugly reality that sometimes matchup knowledge means jack fuckin' shit. At some point you will simply lose the coin toss and end up in the corner with 40% of your health getting torn out of your asshole on the way there. That's barely a balance issue, it's a far-reaching design flaw. You can't nerf that in a meaningful without totally trashing the character. Then D'Vorah's #1 and it's a fight between "nerf D'Vorah" and "no, execution requirements = balance hurdydurdyduhr."

I just don't see any avail in handing out more nerfs. I also don't buy the argument that "if everyone was buffed to top tier guidelines the game wouldn't be any fun", it's bullshit because I've seen it in practice through years and years of Guilty Gear (won't speak to Xrd, can't be bothered with that game yet). Every character in that game was a walking impotent rage inducing clusterfuck. Absolutely no one had anything worse than a 6-4 matchup even on the worst day. MK will never be able to touch that. This was accomplished with the relatively simple premise of "this character plays like __________, so we're going to give this character everything they need to play like ___________"

Characters slip through the cracks in every title, though. Vanilla Accent Core Johnny had no positive matchups but he was never dealing with anything worse than a 4-6, which is completely fucking winnable in all respects. The only real justification for nerfing the top tier at this point over buffing clearly useless character is "because easy."

If anyone thinks this game's top tier is more unmanageable and a bigger problem than the amount of characters that just outright serve no real purpose at a competitive level, you are a dead-eyed agenda pusher at best and a whiney, disingenuous little shit at worst. The idea that if you nerfed Kung Lao, Raiden, Quan, Tanya, D'Vorah et cetera and did nothing else, that your Takedas, Jacquis, Goros, Jasons and Mileena's would somehow be any better, you're drunk. The shitty characters will still be shitty if they're left to be shitty. They'll just have other shitty characters to keep them company on Shit Mountain.

It will always be a problem in NRS titles because they see nothing wrong with some characters having everything and other characters having nothing. The top tier are the top tier mostly because they're put together well. There are just clearly some characters and variations designed with no love. That's the bigger issue.

You can't pretend that relativity isn't a factor on tier lists. It doesn't matter how you nerf or buff, there will always be top and bottom. Which means there will always be complaints.

Personally I'm of the contention that this game is utterly unsalvageable. I doubt they're done patching so maybe we can get "The Patch That Saved MKX" somewhere down the line, but... my hopes are low.
I was talking about the Kano players asking for buffs which implies that the top tier are so top that kano can't compete.

Not gonna lie though... didn't read all that. lol
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
I can see a few MU's becoming ugly as the game continues. It's hard to place numbers this early, but I can see Jax, Shinnok, Ermac, Liu, and Kenshi become, displeasing, in the future. Where as I can't really see Kano have a definitive advantage against any of the top or high tiers. Maybe Sonya? But that's possibly it. That's where I get my "uphill battles" comment from. Against the say Top 15, Kano appears to have either even or disadvantage MU's, with possibly 1 advantage MU??? We've seen how that story ends for characters in other games. You're right in the sense that if people are ok with that then they should play him, as long as they understand that is the case. I clearly wasn't, hence the Tanya switch.

I used that example to show the gap in the characters. Kano can't win the way Tanya can, because Kano has inferior tools in comparison. It's unanimous that Tanya is Top 5. For sake of argument let's say Kano is mid tier. Now I've never thought anything bad of the Takeda/Kano MU. Thought it was pretty even and only one Takeda (a very very skilled one) can beat me so convincingly in the MU. But how can I switch to a Top 5 and turn a 7-25 destruction of Kano to a 18-20 close set with Tanya? Am I that much better with Tanya than Kano? Is the MU actually not even? Is Tanya 8-2 against Takeda and only my lesser skill in comparison to his didn't win the set? Or, is it that the character is that much better allowing me to play better competitively? I remember Dave had something similar happen in Kano/D'Vorah to Tanya/D'Vorah when playing Honeybee. I used these examples to point out that either we were playing Kano incredibly wrong, or Tanya is that much better than Kano. And if she is that much better, then the gap should be moved a little closer between them, and between him and the top tiers. Unless you rather have less tools which is a different conversation altogether.

We both know Jacqui's next patch note will say something like "Jacqui's 121 string is now +2 from +1, to be in line with the rest of the standing 1 strings" lol. But someone is getting buffed next. Likely Goro, with possibly Takeda or Reptile may have already been in the works. Whoever it ends up being(s), there will be even more characters saying goodbye to Kano on their way up. Currently, maybe he is viable, 3 months into the game with limited MU exp and patches remaining. But what about in December? March? Next EVO? If he is surpassed by a few more characters he'll be undoubtedly low tier, because they will be the mid, high, and top. Currently, the game is balanced because it is not broken down yet. How many low tier characters can win in Injustice? No one was going to win with post patch Scorpion or Green Arrow. Tools too inferior to the cast. How many in MK9? No one was going to win with Stryker or KANO (lol), tools too inferior. How many low tiers win in most fighting games in general? Hell the only fighting game I can think of where low tiers can win is Tekken, and even then it's tough and rare. If he slips any further down, the dream is permanently dead. Time will solidify this from opinion into fact.
*cough*Reptile made top 8 at EVO*cough*

Let's put it this way, I've theorised that the most vocal communities end up getting affected a lot in the second patch after the beginning of their outcry so Kano, Jax and Sub Zero are next to be affected if I'm right :p
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
*cough*Reptile made top 8 at EVO*cough*

Let's put it this way, I've theorised that the most vocal communities end up getting affected a lot in the second patch after the beginning of their outcry so Kano, Jax and Sub Zero are next to be affected if I'm right :p
Lololol!!!

Jax? Getting nerfed you mean? Trust me I'm the first person to say he is ridiculous and being overlooked. Top 3 imo. But I haven't really seen anyone talk about him too much in comparison to Sub for example. Was it in the Jax forums or somewhere else?
 

Gweedo888

Apprentice
Kano is the only character not represented in Evo's top 64. Therefore he is the worst in the game.

Discuss.

Except there's no reason to, because the results of one tournament that one time have spoken.

Salt goes here.
Who even plays Kano anymore?

Kinda sad because Cutthroat has alot of potential. Not so much for cybernetic, and lmao commando.
Kuff Bano.
Predator was banned from EVO for being released too late. Kano should have been banned for being too underpowered.

Also, I'm offended I wasn't tagged in the OP.
coach Steve noobe Adonis all played and got into winners finals outta pools or close to the top 16
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Actually, what you said was this-

coach Steve noobe Adonis all played and got into winners finals outta pools or close to the top 16
In which I replied with this-

You should know your facts before you make post.
Followed by this-

I know do since I know all of them and how they did I'm not the one that goes around making dumbass post and being part of the stupidity that is plaguing this site so it's whatever
It's impossible for me to have a discussion with you based on this history. All I can do is advise you to make sure your facts and information are accurate before you make a stand.
 

DFC

Cutthroat Truther
I think this is the same guy that said that Kano players should level up instead of NRS fixing 112 and the like.
 
I know do since I know all of them and how they did I'm not the one that goes around making dumbass post and being part of the stupidity that is plaguing this site so it's whatever
Tried reading multiple, MULTIPLE, times.

Tried adding commas, periods, semicolons, or even exclamation points.

Tried rearranging the words.

Can't make sense of this post to save my life. Is it English?

Kano undeniably needs help in patch form. I hope he gets it. But no one can say with any volition or examples of people who play him that he is fine. Coach Steve is my personal favorite to watch and learn from. However, his ability to do well is knowing match ups and unbelievable reflexes. Just because Kung Lao is the favored top player in the game does not mean 95 percent of the people playing him are able to play him at that level. Tiers and attention to characters is usually largely based on tournament or other top play. The lower rank and abilities of any character is glaringly multiplied in ugliness with the majority of people who don't play at top levels. Kano is doomed to be forgotten by the vast meta without some help. He's the only one I "enjoy" playing the game with, so I hope it happens.
 
Last edited:

thlityoursloat

kick kick
What do you all think of 2F4 being an HDK overhead? Imo the last hit looks like a legit overhead. It almost makes as much sense being a mid as Shinnok's S3 being mid (srsly lol). Commando Kano is also missing a B2 and F2, maybe one of those could be an overhead? It doesn't have to be a starter, just something you can use to condition your opponents to block high, like Liu Liu's B2.