Joker MU Chart 12-3-17

[Vengeance135]

All my personal opinion, not that very many people play him (except us OG Joker players), or know how to play against him lol. I'll leave a brief description for the ones THAT ARE NOT EVEN, if you want to go in depth just let me know!

Hellboy- No clue, not enough exp. Someone Help me

Sub-Zero 4-6: Sub favor. Outdamages joker, better button (better neutral), can navigate jokers zoning easily, dumps on joker on knockdown, especially in the corner.

Swamp Thing 6-4: Jokers Favor. This one's simple, joker can zone swamp out extremely hard.

Cyborg 5-5

Catwoman 4-6 Catwomans favor: shes got better damage, better neutral, better pressure, better wake ups, better jump attacks, better anti-air, better mobility, I mean better everything.

Flash 4-6: Flashs favor- better damage, better corner game, strong anti air, stronger conversions, better neutral, better trait.

Green Lantern 5-5

Harley Quinn 5-5

Batman 4-6: Batman Favor- better damage, better neutral (trait contributes), strong anti air, stronger jump attacks, better pressure, can counter zone.

Red Hood 4-6: Red Hood favor- I'll say this again, he's a better joker.

Superman 4-6: Superman favor- better neutral, better pressure, better damage, good anti-air and stronger corner game.

Joker- 10-0: there's absolutely nothing joker can do in the mirror.

Atrocitus 5-5

Gorilla Grodd no clue, haven't really had enough exp. I feel joker wins but idk, someone help me

Deadshot 4-6: Deadshots Favor- his nerf definitely helped but joker can still be outzoned pretty efficiently and joker cant really bully deadshot on wake up.

Poison Ivy 4-6: Ivys Favor- she's got a better neutral and can efficiently keep joker out. Jokers saving grace is if he can get her in the corner.

Starfire 4-6: Starfire Favor- she has a stronger neutral, better damage and can efficiently keep joker out.

Black Manta 4-6: Black Mantas Favor- strong mobility to navigate around jokers zoning, better neutral, better pressure, and suffocated joker in the corner.

Super-Girl 3-7: Her Favor- this MU is absolutely terrible and the joker community on discord agree with this. She does everything way better then joker. Jokers way to win, make reads and don't fuck up.

Green Arrow 4-6: Arrows Favor- simple, Arrow can efficiently keep joker out.

Dr. Fate 3-7: Fates Favor- this MU is absolutely terrible as well. Fate outzones him free. His finger blasts as I call them, mixed with orb, trait, ankhs all force joker to play his way everywhere up until he gets close.

When joker is close, the shoulder move and huge ankh move (I'm sorry I can't remember the names atm lol), or even just blocking one of jokers moves and pushblocking him away can effectively keep joker from approaching without making a proper read. Fate also has a stronger neutral. The only way joker can win is if he corners fate and can keep him there, otherwise it's gg. @OmGxBdON also agrees this MU is this bad for joker.

In short, Fate pretty much dictates how this match goes.

Blue Beetle 4-6: Beetle Favor- this one I've been diving into a bit more recently thanks to @Vex and I'm finding this to be a very difficult MU for joker. Beetle outranges joker, ignores jokers zoning and can actually punish most of what joker throws out.

Firestorm 4-6: Firestorm Favor- Firestorms damage output mixed with space control pits joker at a disadvantage all over the stage except the corner.

Aquaman 6-4: Jokers Favor- joker pretty much dictates how this MU will pan out the moment he gets away from aquaman.

Black Canary 5-5 @x TeeJay o pretty much solidified my belief in this MU.

Darkseid 4-6: Darkseid Favor- Darkseid outdamages joker, has better mobility, better mix ups and a decent zone game vs Joker.

Wonder Woman 3-7: WW Favor- she has a stronger neutral, better damage, can actually counter zone joker on a health lead, better space control, wake ups that ignore jokers setups and absolutely obliterates joker once he's in the corner.

Black Adam 4-6: Adams Favor- better neutral, better damage, better trait, string cointerzoning tools, free ways in.

Captain Cold 5-5

Robin 5-5

Scarecrow 4-6: Scarecrows Favor- I actually almost changed my mind and thought 5-5 until myself and @foxof42 played. Once he started utilizing the teleport and punishing my gunshots, I then realized joker isn't safe to zone. Aside for that, scarecrow outdamages joker, has a better neutral, strong air 2 airs, and way better range.

Cheetah 4-6: Cheetah Favor- still whiff issues, outdamages joker, better mobility and bullies joker on knockdown. She can have a life lead and force joker to come to her.

Bane 5-5

Brainiac no clue, someone play me

Raiden no clue, someone play me

Wins: 2

Losses: 20

Even: 8

Someone Help Me's: 4

 

[Vigilante24]

Just when I thought it was okay to play Joker again. I miss him

 

[Vengeance135]

Just when I thought it was okay to play Joker again. I miss him

He's still fun to play though lol

 

[Vigilante24]

He's still fun to play though lol

Haha you right. Green Lantern has problems and he's boring in this game. Joker is worse but is at least fun to play. Maybe I should play him again despite the worse MU chart of the 2.

 

[Crusty]

Pardon my prying, but are you sure RH vs Joker is 4-6?

I watch SF vs George and you saw how that happened. I think at highest possible level, its 5-5.

 

[DeftMonk]

Joker's complete lack of forward advancing strings makes certain matchups rough as well. Certain situations where any other char could punish for a grip of damage, joker can just go for d3 or d2. A lot of these matchups that uve listed as 4-6 or 6-4 are pretty damn close... feels more like 4.5-5.5 but I guess that's not really an option in these type threads haha.

Pretty much agree with everything except I think swampy is even after patch and honestly haven't had much problems from a darkseid in awhile. Definitely not enough to say it's in his favor (maybe I'm just trying to be an optimist). I always felt scarecrow was pretty even too.

 

[DeftMonk]

Pardon my prying, but are you sure RH vs Joker is 4-6?

I watch SF vs George and you saw how that happened. I think at highest possible level, its 5-5.

Ya and George was playing like sonic on his best day while sonic was looking pretty shit honestly. Block string into low can should not open up the supposed best player in nrs scene... much less multiple times a match.

I mean sonic is amazing for sure, but it seems like he has been off a bit since eleague be it because lack of desire or too much mvc:I...just my opinion. I would reccomend just playing some jokers Crusty, and then formulate ur own opinion rather than watching footage of one set.

 

[Crusty]

Ya and George was playing like sonic on his best day while sonic was looking pretty shit honestly. Block string into low can should not open up the supposed best player in nrs scene... much less multiple times a match.

I mean sonic is amazing for sure, but it seems like he has been off a bit since eleague be it because lack of desire or too much mvc:I...just my opinion. I would reccomend just playing some jokers Crusty, and then formulate ur own opinion rather than watching footage of one set.

Fair enough. I don't deny RH has an advantage in the mu.

However, RH is best described as doing something any playstyle competently as opposed to just being a master at one particular one.

What I'm getting at is, while Red Hood's overall tools are better, Joker's HTB's and setplay is significantly better. Red Hood's is just enough to give anyone trouble, but Joker's teeth are so much better than landmines for setplay. Because one launches meterless and leads into absurd damage and the other doesn't lead to much without meter. Also, Joker in general has better damage than RH from his setplay without much resources. RH needs more than one bar of meter to significantly drain your health. But these are just my thoughts.

 

[Tweedy]

Yall are the biggest downplayers of all time.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I don’t know anything about Joker but it’s hard to believe that he’s THIS shitty.

 

[DeftMonk]

Ya might as well change the more close 4-6s to 5-5 homie hahaha

 

[Vengeance135]

Yall are the biggest downplayers of all time.

Hey if you know something I don't then let me know lol saying we are downplayers without a single explanation is pretty redundant. If I'm missing something then by all means correct me, I'm open to the discussion lol

 

[Vengeance135]

Ya might as well change the more close 4-6s to 5-5 homie hahaha

I'm not really sure what to change lol if they have an advantage, then they have the advantage lol I almost thought scarecrow was a 5-5 but it really isn't. He can legit punish jokers gunshot with teleport on read. That with all his other advantages in the MU, how can it be even?

 

[Vengeance135]

Fair enough. I don't deny RH has an advantage in the mu.

However, RH is best described as doing something any playstyle competently as opposed to just being a master at one particular one.

What I'm getting at is, while Red Hood's overall tools are better, Joker's HTB's and setplay is significantly better. Red Hood's is just enough to give anyone trouble, but Joker's teeth are so much better than landmines for setplay. Because one launches meterless and leads into absurd damage and the other doesn't lead to much without meter. Also, Joker in general has better damage than RH from his setplay without much resources. RH needs more than one bar of meter to significantly drain your health. But these are just my thoughts.

Hey thanks for actually replying with content and not a dumb comment lol jokers teeth are great for set play. With that being said, there's a lot of ways jokers setups can be ignored, like pushblock and delayed wake up, which really hurts joker since he has a shitty neutral. Also, depending on the setup, some of jokers setups actually leave him punishable if blocked, while a lot of red hoods setups leave him safe or plus.

While red hood does have to spend a bar to get a launch with mine, he doesn't need meter to convert off a successful mine explosion and if they block he has strings to go for continued pressure or to open you up, while joker really doesn't. Outside of teeth, the only way he can open you up is through gimmicks. Hey George was doing blockstrings ending in teeth and Sonic was letting him do it. Sonic could have d1 lunged out or d1 lunged into him to punish which he didn't.

I played red hood for a little bit to have as a secondary, he was boring to me lol

 

[DeftMonk]

I'm not really sure what to change lol if they have an advantage, then they have the advantage lol I almost thought scarecrow was a 5-5 but it really isn't. He can legit punish jokers gunshot with teleport on read. That with all his other advantages in the MU, how can it be even?

One thing about that matchup is we have parry and scarecrow suffers imo when chars can parry since his start up is slow on lots of his stuff. I do agree with your chart for the most part, but I get tired of people like tweedy popping in here and saying we downplay when I am sure he is probably of the opinion superman/batman should never open you up unless you suck...but heygeorge opened sonic with a 29 frame start up low move so it must open up everyone right? Funny thing was unless I dont remember correctly he wasn't even opening him up with 212 can was 32 or 21 which you can just neutral jump punish as it doesn't even jail.

 

[Vengeance135]

One thing about that matchup is we have parry and scarecrow suffers imo when chars can parry since his start up is slow on lots of his stuff. I do agree with your chart for the most part, but I get tired of people like tweedy popping in here and saying we downplay when I am sure he is probably of the opinion superman/batman should never open you up unless you suck...but heygeorge opened sonic with a 29 frame start up low move so it must open up everyone right? Funny thing was unless I dont remember correctly he wasn't even opening him up with 212 can was 32 or 21 which you can just neutral jump punish as it doesn't even jail.

I feel you bro lol the main problem is people speak like joker is good but lack actual MU knowledge which is why they lose.

There are very few people here that know the joker MU and those that do know where and why he struggles.

 

[Vengeance135]

Fair enough. I don't deny RH has an advantage in the mu.

However, RH is best described as doing something any playstyle competently as opposed to just being a master at one particular one.

What I'm getting at is, while Red Hood's overall tools are better, Joker's HTB's and setplay is significantly better. Red Hood's is just enough to give anyone trouble, but Joker's teeth are so much better than landmines for setplay. Because one launches meterless and leads into absurd damage and the other doesn't lead to much without meter. Also, Joker in general has better damage than RH from his setplay without much resources. RH needs more than one bar of meter to significantly drain your health. But these are just my thoughts.

Also something you may not know, when joker is right next to you and you block teeth you can pushblock the block stun of teeth and no matter what joker is doing, it will get nullified UNLESS it's an armored move, which is only f/b3 and bounce cancels. I was thinking of making a post on this because apparently a lot of people don't know this. This is a big deal to characters that have a stronger neutral.

 

[PetulantWaste]

Yall are the biggest downplayers of all time.

After you wrote that Joker outzones Superman and that it's basically a 5-5 I'm pretty sure you have that title.

 

[TamedLizard]

Well at least this is more promising than that Bonehawks MU chart with no winning matchups lol.

 

[Vengeance135]

Well at least this is more promising than that Bonehawks MU chart with no winning matchups lol.

Don't get me wrong, the 4-6's are manageable but those characters still have the advantage.

Jokers design is weird and, in a lot of ways, not fit for this game imo, especially when universal mechanics of the game like delayed wake up and pushblock help his opponents avoid his strengths.

Joker takes a ton of commitment, MU specific knowledge, mixed with the players ability to make good reads to be effective.

 

[TamedLizard]

Don't get me wrong, the 4-6's are manageable but those characters still have the advantage.

Jokers design is weird and, in a lot of ways, not fit for this game imo, especially when universal mechanics of the game like delayed wake up and pushblock help his opponents avoid his strengths.

Joker takes a ton of commitment, MU specific knowledge, mixed with the players ability to make good reads to be effective.

Oh I know. Been playing him almost exclusively for a couple weeks now. I won't pretend like I know 100% what's up in that short time, but it doesn't take a genius to take note of his shortcomings. Especially when you walk into MUs like Superman, Adam, Batman, or Darkseid vs a competent defensive player.

But god this character is still so much fun regardless. After co-maining Bo, an enjoyable set play character is what I've been longing for since release.

Not too worried about defensive options vs him in the corner though tbh. It's getting them there that's the real task. Pushblock attempts can be punished, as can delay wake-up and tech roll. Yeah it's all read based, but he has what he needs to put the fear of god in you on knockdown in the corner or after a bgb.

 

[Vengeance135]

Oh I know. Been playing him almost exclusively for a couple weeks now. I won't pretend like I know 100% what's up in that short time, but it doesn't take a genius to take note of his shortcomings. Especially when you walk into MUs like Superman, Adam, Batman, or Darkseid vs a competent defensive player.

But god this character is still so much fun regardless. After co-maining Bo, an enjoyable set play character is what I've been longing for since release.

Not too worried about defensive options vs him in the corner though tbh. It's getting them there that's the real task. Pushblock attempts can be punished, as can delay wake-up and tech roll. Yeah it's all read based, but he has what he needs to put the fear of god in you on knockdown in the corner or after a bgb.

I agree about the knockdown kind of. I think if you familiarize yourself with his setups and/or have a character with a good wake up, good forward advancing string, good d1 specials or understand how to block, it's not that difficult to deal with, especially when you can block teeth and pushblock the block stun. That completely shuts down what joker was doing UNLESS the joker knew you would pushblock and bounce canceled using the armor to eat the push block.

His HTB's aren't what they used to be, if it's too close to an unlockable, the game autoblocks for you or negates the setup completely and of course, joker has to account for a delayed wake up before throwing teeth. So essentially, it has to be a high low or low high with nothing to tight in frames.

Joker is one of the strongest corner characters for sure but when you know the timing of teeth and his overhead options, it can become manageable.

Myself personally, and the bulk of our community don't really have a problem blocking jokers stuff a huge majority of the time.

 

[DubiousShenron]

@Vengeance135 Fate wins 3-7 cause he has better zoning? Fate is obviously supposed to have better zoning than Joker so let’s reset it to 5-5.

Want to try again?

Edit: So Fate 3-7s all the characters with lesser zoning tools cause he out zones them? You should be ashamed of yourself honestly..

 

[Vengeance135]

@Vengeance135 Fate wins 3-7 cause he has better zoning? Fate is obviously supposed to have better zoning than Joker so let’s reset it to 5-5.

Want to try again?

Edit: So Fate 3-7s all the characters with lesser zoning tools cause he out zones them? You should be ashamed of yourself honestly..

Oh you're right I'm sorry, I was tired af when I did the description lol more in depth overview:

His finger blasts as I call them, mixed with orb, trait, ankhs all force joker to play his way everywhere up until he gets close.

When joker is close, the shoulder move and huge ankh move (I'm sorry I can't remember the names atm lol), or even just blocking one of jokers moves and pushblocking him away can effectively keep joker from approaching without making a proper read. Fate also has a stronger neutral. The only way joker can win is if he corners fate and can keep him there, otherwise it's gg. @OmGxBdON also agrees this MU is this bad for joker.

In short, Fate pretty much dictates how this match goes.

Thanks again for catching my stupid mistake lol. Is there anything else that I should be ashamed of? Lmao

 

[DubiousShenron]

His finger blasts as I call them, mixed with orb, trait, ankhs all force joker to play his way everywhere up until he gets close.

When joker is close, the shoulder move and huge ankh move (I'm sorry I can't remember the names atm lol), or even just blocking one of jokers moves and pushblocking him away can effectively keep joker from approaching without making a proper read. Fate also has a stronger neutral. The only way joker can win is if he corners fate and can keep him there, otherwise it's gg. @OmGxBdON also agrees this MU is this bad for joker.

In short, Fate pretty much dictates how this match goes.

Thanks again for catching my stupid mistake lol. Is there anything else that I should be ashamed of? Lmao

Okay Doctor Fate is going to zone every character in the game, lets get that out there first. Just because Fate is zoning you doesnt mean it's a bad MU -- please try to understand this. So joker gets zoned by Fate like every other character, he has to respect the F2 like every other character and he has to deal with the wakeup like every other character (except not really cause he has teeth to throw down).

So every point you've made does not relate to joker v fate specifically (zoned out, beaten by f2, has to deal with wakeup). Every character has these problems against Doctor Fate, as they should, its up to you as a player to find specific answers with your character. All the points you made are relevant to why Doctor Fate is a good character and on the other side you essentially say nothing about the Joker as a character and what his gameplan is. You seem to have a tenuous understanding of what the joker is supposed to do in general since you offer no insight.

This is your breakdown of the MU:

Doctor Fate's fireballs (joker has no options)
Fate's f2 (no options)
Fate's Wakeup (no options)

So why see why its tough to believe you or even think you have the right intentions here..