General/Other - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage post patch destiny

[ismael4790]

What changes do you guys think the actor will get in the next patch? And which ones would you like to see?

Will A-List lose his throne of best variation? You think Stunt Double will keep his famous htbs? Will Fisticuffs resurrect?

Discuss, all three variations!

 

[Scott The Scot]

Assuming that there will be a next patch...

I think the only adjustment A-List needs is to have dem fireballs nerfed (I only play A-list so don't know if it affects the other variations). His rushdown is very good, having 8% fireballs on-top of that is pretty mental. Scale it back to like 5% or something I guess.

Spoiler: Some nonsense about F34 charge on whiff. I wouldn't actually touch it at all.

I know a lot of people cry about being able to charge F3,4 and instantly run cancel out of it even when it whiffs but honestly I think that's fine. Whiff punishing isn't always easy and it's something that YOU need to practice doing. The F3 is still whiff punishable, you just have to know the spacing of F3 for when it will whiff and then practice doing it.

If I had a gun to my head and was forced to decide on a nerf for F34 then I'd let them shoot me. However that's not fun to discuss lol so what I'd actually hypothetically do is either make Cage have to charge longer before cancelling out of it on whiff OR make it so cage has to dash out of it for a certain amount of frames before he can actually run. This makes whiff punishing F3(4) easier for the opponent.

But yeah that's the only change I'd make to A-List and my suggestion to a non existing problem. Not sure if any buffs to Fisticuffs would indirectly change A-List or whatever but yeah. That's my 2 cents.

TL;DR - A-List fireball should be 5%, not 8%.

 

[ismael4790]

Assuming that there will be a next patch...

I think the only adjustment A-List needs is to have dem fireballs nerfed (I only play A-list so don't know if it affects the other variations). His rushdown is very good, having 8% fireballs on-top of that is pretty mental. Scale it back to like 5% or something I guess.

Spoiler: Some nonsense about F34 charge on whiff. I wouldn't actually touch it at all.

I know a lot of people cry about being able to charge F3,4 and instantly run cancel out of it even when it whiffs but honestly I think that's fine. Whiff punishing isn't always easy and it's something that YOU need to practice doing. The F3 is still whiff punishable, you just have to know the spacing of F3 for when it will whiff and then practice doing it.

If I had a gun to my head and was forced to decide on a nerf for F34 then I'd let them shoot me. However that's not fun to discuss lol so what I'd actually hypothetically do is either make Cage have to charge longer before cancelling out of it on whiff OR make it so cage has to dash out of it for a certain amount of frames before he can actually run. This makes whiff punishing F3(4) easier for the opponent.

But yeah that's the only change I'd make to A-List and my suggestion to a non existing problem. Not sure if any buffs to Fisticuffs would indirectly change A-List or whatever but yeah. That's my 2 cents.

TL;DR - A-List fireball should be 5%, not 8%.

I think nrs should be careful nerfing universal tools, in general. Fisticuffs has already received some collateral nerfs which aim was to fix problems of the other two variations, and this is really unfair.
A forceball nerf would be another example of this.

Imo they should focus on adjustments just involving specific variation tools.

 

[Scott The Scot]

I think nrs should be careful nerfing universal tools, in general. Fisticuffs has already received some collateral nerfs which aim was to fix problems of the other two variations, and this is really unfair.
A forceball nerf would be another example of this.

Imo they should focus on adjustments just involving specific variation tools.

Yeah that's what I said, I was talking about only A-List since I wasn't sure if the forceball was universal. I know one of the variations have straight forceballs rather than curved but again, I've only every played A-list lol

I just feel like A-List is fine the way it is and the only thing that's silly is that he has good zoning capabilities ontop of that lol

 

[ismael4790]

Yeah that's what I said, I was talking about only A-List since I wasn't sure if the forceball was universal. I know one of the variations have straight forceballs rather than curved but again, I've only every played A-list lol

I just feel like A-List is fine the way it is and the only thing that's silly is that he has good zoning capabilities ontop of that lol

Stunt double is the one with the straight shitty forceball xD

A-List and fisticuffs share forceball. I don't know if they could nerf one and keep the other intact...

 

[trufenix]

a safe fist bump option from mid screen / point blank would be a god send. No need to turn him into Liu Kang or Reptile though.

Edit: I can only speak on Fisticuffs, the other two are boring.

 

[ismael4790]

a safe fist bump option from mid screen / point blank would be a god send. No need to turn him into Liu Kang or Reptile though.

Edit: I can only speak on Fisticuffs, the other two are boring.

Agree: at the moment, all strings on hit or on block canceled into fistbump don't give Fisticuffs any advantage, which is hilarious.
Actually Flame Fist Liu it's a good reference on what Fistbump and an hypothetical Ex Fistbump should be.

Also, I think Fisticuffs (if speedbag is not improved) could use some kind of parry or command grab, or a new string. Now he feels very limited.

 

[Scott The Scot]

Also, I think Fisticuffs (if speedbag is not improved) could use some kind of parry or command grab, or a new string. Now he feels very limited.

What if Fisticuffs had a command grab that did no initial damage, but high scaling, and allowed you to link some sort of normal if timed correctly? I completely stole that idea from Yang in SFIV lol but it would be neat. KInd of broken when he has a meterless restand though lol.

 

[ismael4790]

What if Fisticuffs had a command grab that did no initial damage, but high scaling, and allowed you to link some sort of normal if timed correctly? I completely stole that idea from Yang in SFIV lol but it would be neat. KInd of broken when he has a meterless restand though lol.

I don't play sf, but sounds good!

Yeah, combining the restand with the command grab might be dangerous. Imo the parry would be better, and would help him introducing mindgames after the speedbag gap where people trying to armor would get caught by the parry.

Also I think he needs some kind of new string, maybe involving f3. He's the only variation that has no way to safely hit confirm f3 into a combo. A-List can do it with cancels, and StuntDouble with mimic uppercut. Fisticuffs has to commit to exnutpunch if he wants damage. Also, he's the only variation that has to spend meter to make 113 string semisafe.

If exfistbump existed, it should make things like f3~exfistbump f3~nutpunch a combo. Or 113~exfistbump f3~nutpunch.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Johnny Cage:
- Hurtbox on D+4 slightly increased.

A-List:
- F+3 can no longer be cancelled on whiff.
- Shadow Kick now has 6 frames of added delay before you can cancel out of it on block. (this does not affect any current dash cancel combos and there is no delay on Hit)

Fisticuffs:
- EX version of Fistbump added that has faster recovery and lasts longer.
- Throw now stacks separately with both Red Johnny and Fistbump. This results in a 20% throw if you have Red Johnny active AND Fistbump active at the same time.

Stunt Double:
- Second hit of EX Rising Mimic is now a mid.

 

[trufenix]

Agree: at the moment, all strings on hit or on block canceled into fistbump don't give Fisticuffs any advantage, which is hilarious.
Actually Flame Fist Liu it's a good reference on what Fistbump and an hypothetical Ex Fistbump should be.

Also, I think Fisticuffs (if speedbag is not improved) could use some kind of parry or command grab, or a new string. Now he feels very limited.

I don't need advantage on FB. I just need a way to turn it on and not get full combo punished for it. As it stands, I think B+2 xx FB in completely open space is the only way to do this and even then, some teleports / fireballs can get you.

 

[ismael4790]

Johnny Cage:
- Hurtbox on D+4 slightly increased.

A-List:
- F+3 can no longer be cancelled on whiff.
- Shadow Kick now has 6 frames of added delay before you can cancel out of it on block. (this does not affect any current dash cancel combos and there is no delay on Hit)

Fisticuffs:
- EX version of Fistbump added that has faster recovery and lasts longer.
- Throw now stacks separately with both Red Johnny and Fistbump. This results in a 20% throw if you have Red Johnny active AND Fistbump active at the same time.

Stunt Double:
- Second hit of EX Rising Mimic is now a mid.

I personally don't agree with Stunt double EX Rising mimic becoming a mid. There are other ways to remove his corner hard to block besides this radical change...

This Fisticuffs change " Throw now stacks separately with both Red Johnny and Fistbump. This results in a 20% throw if you have Red Johnny active AND Fistbump active at the same time" is good, but wouldn't change the variation overall, it's a minor change. Fistbump change is a must. And besides that, either speedbag is improved to a close prepatch state (9f startup and -1 or -2 on block, for example), or a new element should be introduced (parry/command grab/new string).

I don't need advantage on FB. I just need a way to turn it on and not get full combo punished for it. As it stands, I think B+2 xx FB in completely open space is the only way to do this and even then, some teleports / fireballs can get you.

Ending combos in 121 also works, but yeah, activating it is a high risk in general.
I miss b2 being special cancelable, was the best way to activate it and you could move a bit after. Also b2~exforceball was a nice blockstring.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I don't play sf, but sounds good!

Yeah, combining the restand with the command grab might be dangerous. Imo the parry would be better, and would help him introducing mindgames after the speedbag gap where people trying to armor would get caught by the parry.

Also I think he needs some kind of new string, maybe involving f3. He's the only variation that has no way to safely hit confirm f3 into a combo. A-List can do it with cancels, and StuntDouble with mimic uppercut. Fisticuffs has to commit to exnutpunch if he wants damage. Also, he's the only variation that has to spend meter to make 113 string semisafe.

If exfistbump existed, it should make things like f3~exfistbump f3~nutpunch a combo. Or 113~exfistbump f3~nutpunch.

If he could tick off of speed bag I would kill myself.

 

[ismael4790]

If he could tick off of speed bag I would kill myself.

He needs it

Nah, that would be completely op, unless the command grab was very low damaging...
If he got a command grab maybe it should only tick off pokes and an additional string like b32, 12 or something, but not speedbag.

 

[SmokingWarrior]

A-List fireball should be 5%, not 8%.

Are you crazy ? What would happen if he gets zoned ?

Johnny's B4 should be nerfed and you shouldn't be able to poke between the balls of SD EX forceballs.

And one last thing : Fix Johnny's Hitbox issues !

EDIT : I think they should also buff his F4 because the only able to anti air with that by accident

 

[Scott The Scot]

Are you crazy ? What would happen if he gets zoned ?

He'd block and walk and make his way in, he's not a zoner lol

 

[Orangutan]

@Scott The Scot Tbh I don't think I wanna see any nerfs to a-list. He sits around 8th or 9th in the variation top 10 imo, so it really depends on how they address the variations above him. He's also got one of the highest skill ceiling's of any variation, if you want to play it to its potential that is.

For fisticuffs it would be sweet if they gave him a flamefist style parry yeah, and a couple of positive fist-buff cancels

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

If Fisty gets adjustments, Hattrick will lost a good buddy in the las seat raw

 

[M.D.]

A-list will not get nerfed, that's obvious.

There are a lot of stronger variations that need attention, it's childish to think random complaints and paper theory will get A-list nerfed.

Until someone actually WINS anything with A-list, all this banter is just salty scrubs getting owned by Cage having no clue how to play the game.

 

[Scott The Scot]

@Scott The Scot Tbh I don't think I wanna see any nerfs to a-list. He sits around 8th or 9th in the variation top 10 imo, so it really depends on how they address the variations above him. He's also got one of the highest skill ceiling's of any variation, if you want to play it to its potential that is.

For fisticuffs it would be sweet if they gave him a flamefist style parry yeah, and a couple of positive fist-buff cancels

Yah I don't want any nerfs or buffs to A-list because I think it's fine I just think it's mental that he can win trades and fireball wars but when the person gets closer to him because they can't win from the zoning game, he out pressures them too. Y'know?

 

[Orangutan]

Yah I don't want any nerfs or buffs to A-list because I think it's fine I just think it's mental that he can win trades and fireball wars but when the person gets closer to him because they can't win from the zoning game, he out pressures them too. Y'know?

Troo, troo. He wins lots of matchups because of that dynamic and only really loses to the better variations (and goro apparently @Wigy ). But you gotta have top tiers don't you ? if not cage then someone else

 

[Scott The Scot]

Troo, troo. He wins lots of matchups because of that dynamic and only really loses to the better variations (and goro apparently @Wigy ). But you gotta have top tiers don't you ? if not cage then someone else

Grandmaster is really tough imo lol but this ain't a MU thread so I won't rant lmao.

 

[ismael4790]

I honestly think A-List Cage deserves some adjustments, but many characters above them deserve it also, so he might go through the patch untouched.

I fear Stunt-Double is going to be destroyed to remove the htb, when a simple adjustment to the sweep, or a small frame change in the mimic overhead would do the thing. But they will probably make it a mid, eliminating with that some of his midscreen tricks also. If this happens, I hope Stunt Double Exforceball huge gap gets removed, to compensate.
Takeda will keep his htbs, I'm sure about that xD

At least i hope Fisticuffs gets help to compensate it, but I also doubt it: many people that probably don't even use him dare to say he's fine just because variationless Johnny tools are "good enough", smh. I would recommend those players to pick him and experience how insanely hard is to open up (decent) players with a variation that has absolutely nothing.

If Fisty gets adjustments, Hattrick will lost a good buddy in the las seat raw

I feel you, man. Hope Hat trick inconsistencies get fixed too.

 

[Mikemetroid]

SD can lose the HTB, he doesn't need it.

 

[smokey]

Stunt double-
Make sweep 4-5 frames slower.

A list -
Make f34] have to charge for like 4 more frames on whiff before you can run cancel it. Doesnt kill it as a variation specific mechanic but also means people can stfu about whiff punishing it.

SWAGBUFF: Make shadowkick run cancel on whiff faster and let it reversal between tick throws. Its throw immune so should be able to reversal shadowkick jason b1~command throw and make the throw whiff, run cancel it and full punish. Hardest of reads should be more rewarding.

Fistycuffs -
Gutter trash just abandon the idea of this shit and play flame fist.