Question - Konjurer Issues with Alien (Konjurer specifically)

[Slavaslave]

So I wanted to bring up some problems I am having playing Alien and Konjurer specifically. This will sound like I'm crying for a buff or something, but I just want to learn and these are my problems I'm having.

DISCLAIMER: I've been playing this variation since release, but by no means am I an expert, these are as much questions as a concerns.

NORMALS:

d1: decent range, 7 frames... good poke.
d3: 9 frames , great range.
f4: good to cancel into flip or tail swipe.
b3: nuff said...
ji4: iffy hitbox, had it wiff as the tail passed straight through my opponent.
ji2: decent range, can combo off it.
d2: weird... I find it wiffs a lot of crossover jumps, just a really shitty hitbox. F-A-S-T though.
b2: good starter, but really telegraphed.

STRINGS:

1: frame trap, but high and easily neutral ducked. most of the time I just get poked out of it.
11: same problem as 1. can be staggered, but once again its easily neutral ducked.
12: still high and I get poked probably 1 in 3 times from this, but it is a very fast low OH when cancelled into flip.
b1: basically 1.
b11: basically 11, has more mixup potential though.
b113: I like this, but it seems telegraphed when you will finish it vs the OH flip cancel.
b11u4: basically useless unless as a punish or combo extender (and kind of tricky to link in combos to boot)
f134: the only useful mid I've had as a combo starter, but horribly telegraphed. and at 11 frames I find it cannot punish very well.
f23 (and 3434): good armor break if timed perfectly, has iffy hit chance mid-combo, slow as fuck.

SPECIALS:

bf4: the combo starter/extender, great mixup, but mostly unsafe on block when MB.
bf3: I love this move... 11 frame start up, great anti-air, great wakeup both regular and MB.... unsafe as fuck both reg and MB.
db3: good mixup, puts opponent at a solid footsie range. also pretty unsafe, but at max range I havent been punished yet
bf1: also a decent wakeup, switches position, combo extender on MB.
db1: aaaahhhh setups... I'll go into those later.
db4: more setups, not great in combo unless off a hit as its easy to react and block. MB pops-up, but I've found its minimal mid-combo (no NJP after).

SETUPS:

HKD into egg 5050: this is great, but I have noticed that in certain situations some characters can actually wakeup and be safe. I tested and it turns out if the 112 connects in a way that your opponent is under the alien's "hand" in the animation then he/she hits the ground quick enough to wakeup and be safe before the egg goes off. this goes for CSZ and SZ slide, belly bump from bo rai cho and similar very fast specials. I can't post a youtube video yet, but for reference I am doing f134xxcrawl ~ b11u4 (run) 112xxegg.

corner (un)blockable: I am still mastering this one, but I have a problem with the drone coming down ahead or behind the opponent. When it does connect the usual bounce from the drone is busted when my b3 hits first, and I just blew a bar on 14%.

f134xxegg: this I feel like is the safest option for egg setups, puts opponent out of range for a lot of wakeups, but the egg is preatty easily blocked because I can't get in before it goes off. when I run to get in I usually just eat whatever fast special someone has and lose the egg. when I read and block the special the opponent is able to block the egg.

So what am I doing wrong, or reading wrong? Is there something I'm missing?

 

[SkyratiK]

I have a video showing some different setups out of b11u4, 33~ovimorph. His drone is good, Im still trying to use it more. I posted it in another thread. The f4 whiff against mileena is pretty silly. He seems pretty solid though. Im just having a hard time with anti zoning.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

 

[Ponkz]

It's not conjurer, alien is bad. This is the worst variation aswell. I'm going to stick with it but there's so much shit that bothers me my head hurts.

Ovomorph is terrible, it's essentially a terrible version of any other freeze in the game. Half the time it whiffs on jumping opponents or goes over the head on sliding opponents. It's slow to summon and because we can't loop a combo into another summon, it's back to neutral and it's just horrendous in the neutral.

I mean what were nrs thinking, the triborg mains are complaining about a 7f high combo starter that has as much range as our f1 mid which is 4 frames slower, our 'long range' pokes are totally shit if they miss it's a full combo punish. Our overhead f4 is absolutely shit, I mean come on its literally only good for the tarkatan vortex, in the neutral good luck hitting someone with it, it can't hit airborne opponents very well nor can it hit low profiles. I don't want all the kharacters to be the same but leatherfaces overhead in killer completely anti airs, covers the ground and is faster with much better recovery. It just blows.

I could go into more detail but how can nrs justify ovomorph being so bad in the neutral and drone summon leaving us -1000 so we can't ever trade, is beyond me. Csz makes this kharacters look F tier honestly, look at his options then look at ours, he has for 1 bar a fullscreen unreactable face hugger which keeps the character standing long enough so he can land a combo. We get for 1bar a bigger area, and 4 frames off of 59 or something. You know what I want for 1 bar, I want to be able to burn a bar so that the facehugger hits for 6% and is an overhead and isn't on the same internal cooldown as regular ovomorph but has its own with the meter burn one.

I'll also take less recovery frames on crawl please so I don't get jump back spammed constantly.

I could be wrong here, but I wish that ex drone wasn't movable, I'd rather that the ex version was in a fixed location it makes run ins harder it makes b3 into drone really tight on timing. I'm happy with the normal drone being movable, but not so much ex

/Rant over,

 

[dennycascade]

TYM needs to start banning posts like these

 

[ATP2014]

Konjurer is probably the worst variation, but it is by no means bad. It's strength lies in Drone Drop and how it prevents your opponent from zoning Alien out. Characters like Kitana, Pretty Lady Leatherface, Sektor and Full Auto Jacqui all do a decent job zoning Alien. However, Drone Drop does great in a trade situation, giving the knockdown and allowing Alien to go in. If you can get the Egg Summon out as well, it will force them to block and allow Alien to close the gap as well.

Combined with his base tools that are good versus zoners like Crawl, D4, Tail Scoop and J4, Konjurer is virtually impossible to keep out for the characters listed above. I haven't tried it versus Summoner Quan or HQT Predator, which are probably still the 2 best zoners in the game, but their armor options are still bad. Getting on them should be harder.

 

[TheGoldenJew]

alien confirmed worse character in game

 

[Ponkz]

alien confirmed worse character in game

I never said that.

Also people can bash on my post it's just opinion, saying it should be banned is just as bad as a rant post. Counter arguments are better for forums not pitchforks.

 

[Ponkz]

Konjurer is probably the worst variation, but it is by no means bad. It's strength lies in Drone Drop and how it prevents your opponent from zoning Alien out. Characters like Kitana, Pretty Lady Leatherface, Sektor and Full Auto Jacqui all do a decent job zoning Alien. However, Drone Drop does great in a trade situation, giving the knockdown and allowing Alien to go in. If you can get the Egg Summon out as well, it will force them to block and allow Alien to close the gap as well.

Combined with his base tools that are good versus zoners like Crawl, D4, Tail Scoop and J4, Konjurer is virtually impossible to keep out for the characters listed above. I haven't tried it versus Summoner Quan or HQT Predator, which are probably still the 2 best zoners in the game, but their armor options are still bad. Getting on them should be harder.

You said drone drop does great in a trade situation, but most projectiles stagger or knockdown and alot of them freeze for a full combo. I don't think we can trade and get in free we need a clean hit.

My other issue is the variation itself, we don't/can't zone well due to cooldown on drone drop so we need to get in, when we get in we need to have an amazing close game I think it's agreeable that tarkatan and acidic are beastly up close, but conjurer is bad, no plus frames, everything starts high, we have pressure, but it's not safe, so our ovomorph tool is incredibly difficult to use in the neutral, our strings are all negative so our pressure ends on a successful block.

I say these things because I need to know how best to play the variation, because up close and far seem lackluster.

 

[ATP2014]

Some projectile trades are definitely not in Konjurer's favor, but the 4 characters I listed definitely don't have projectiles that cause a large stagger/freeze. You would be left standing in most trade situations, and you could summon a far Egg before the opponent can do anything. This forces them to block, or get caught in the capture state, and allows you to get in.

On a hard read, you can also do EX far Egg summon, which is much faster and forces them to block. EX Drone Drop also gives you more advantage on a trade due to the ground bounce, and is a guaranteed way in. You also still have all the universal Alien tools to deal with zoning as well.

 

[Ponkz]

Some projectile trades are definitely not in Konjurer's favor, but the 4 characters I listed definitely don't have projectiles that cause a large stagger/freeze. You would be left standing in most trade situations, and you could summon a far Egg before the opponent can do anything. This forces them to block, or get caught in the capture state, and allows you to get in.

On a hard read, you can also do EX far Egg summon, which is much faster and forces them to block. EX Drone Drop also gives you more advantage on a trade due to the ground bounce, and is a guaranteed way in. You also still have all the universal Alien tools to deal with zoning as well.

So you have got in, then what? This isn't dragons fire so I can't keep the pressure up. Most characters have plus frames and solid pressure with quick mids.

We have an ok mid it's not cassies but it's better than most, but this variation is quite minus after a mix up. Can I use drone drop as pressure or do I get blown up? People who know the mu are just spamming armor reversal now so it's a real struggle with gaps

 

[ATP2014]

Alien doesn't have gaps when using his main pressure string, F134. After this string, you have the choice of cancelling into the OH flip, which is -7 and basically safe, or the low scoop, which is unsafe but can be tricky to punish. You normally should use the OH flip for safety, and occasionally you can throw in the low scoop to keep them guessing.

On top of this, the third hit of F134 is a low, which means you can cancel F13 into OH flip for mixup. This is also safe and has 0 gaps. OH flip also leads to a hard knockdown, which allows you to do F4/B3 as a 50/50 starter.

F134 also builds a good amount of meter on block, and if you have conditioned them to block the OH flip, you can do EX OH flip on your negative frames to launch them while they attempt to start their game. This gives you a full combo which should lead to max corner carry or into decent damage in the corner.

Once your opponent starts respecting all of these pressure options and chooses to block, you are now able to use your other strings for similar purposes. B113, 12 and 214 all have lows at the end of the strings, and you can mix it up by cancelling at anytime into EX or regular OH flip for mixups. With Konjurer every successful mixup should lead into an Egg summon and allows you to get some really good mixups.