Is there a consensus on when a 50/50 becomes fuzzyable?

[GGA Jeremiah]

Hey guys. There is still so much for me to learn about fighting games. I am trying to up my game and I was wondering if there is a general consensus for how close an overhead and a low attack have to be frame wise for them to be fuzzyable?

Like let's say my character has a 17 frame low, and a 21 frame overhead. Is that fuzzyable? Does it depend on how close the animations are?

What do you guys think? What are some supposed 50/50s that you guys always fuzzy in fighting games?

 

[FrothyOmen]

I've seen people say anything 18 frames or higher can be reacted to and blocked with fair consistency by adept players, as vague as that sentence is. It's hard to quantify

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I think a lot of times the animation affects it too -- like if the startup of the overhead animation is a big telltale movement that's really easy to recognize, you can react to it almost out of instinct. But if the startup frames aren't very pronounced or it comes out looking like some other move for the 1st X frames, that makes it harder to react to.

 

[ChatterBox]

Good question, but I'm not sure I understand. So lets see if this helps.

I was taught fuzzy guarding means guarding in a pre-learned timing so you block both options. Like Doomsday's Earthshaker (OH-L) or MB Earthshaker (L) The timing is the key, get the timing down and you block both options.

Do you mean block on reaction? Then I've been told about the same as FrothyOmen was saying. 18 and a human can react. In a high octane match with headgames? Maybe more or less by a few frames if your opponent is breaking you down or your adrenaline is up.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Ive heard anything higher than 18 is reactable.

 

[GuamoKun]

Animation plays an important role. That's why batgirls 50/50s are dumb

 

[GGA HAN]

I wouldn't say 18 frames is reactable, maybe 20-22 frames might be. GGA Slips would know better than me, he's a tekken legend and played scorpion in MK9, so he would know about people seeing his 50/50 of f4 and b2...

To answer Jeremiah question: The difference in frames isn't the most important aspect in fuzzy guarding, IMHO - its the start-up animations. You look for the one that is easier to see and react to that one, while defending the other by default.

 

[cyke_out]

It also really depends on the game. In VF, there are different ways to fuzzy guard depending on the frame disadvantage on block or hit. for times where you are -2 to -3 at disadvantage you can simple duck quickly and release to neutral in order to defend from a high throw and the fastest mid. For times when you are a greater frame disadvantage, you will need to input a crouch dash cancel in order to duck the high throw and block the fast mid mix up.

 

[Smoke_Of_Finland]

I never manage to block Kazuya's or Jin's db4 in Tekken because their torsos stay upright during the move. most seeable lows in that game have an animation that drops the hurtbox of the attacking character to crush highs or they have other telltale signs (Heihachi yells "Vasih!" as he drops down for his db2 or Lars yells "Yeah!" when he drops down, raising his hands when he is going for his d1+2).

 

[Qwark28]

Animation and frames. Try fuzzy guarding KF F3.

 

[cyke_out]

I believe a move needs to be around 18-20 frames before it becomes a reactable move, meaning it is slow enough to be blocked on reaction. This mostly comes into play for lows in games like tekken where blocking high is the default. If a low is less than 18 frames it becomes an unseeable low. In order to block it, you need to make a few well educated guesses or reads.

 

[ryublaze]

Can people react to scorpion 50/50 or not? Have 2 people sat down offline and practiced blocking the 50/50 over and over again and come to a consensus? This is something that I've been wanting to know for a long time now. Right now I am thinking that anything 20 frames or higher can be blocked on reaction.

Eddy Wang FCP/EMP SCAR Ninj AK L0rdoftheFLY Skarlet community I also want to hear ur opinion on Skarlet's down slash if it can be blocked on reaction cuz it's 2 frames slower than scorpion's b2 and I always thought it could be reacted to so I never do it but I always see Scar and Eddy Wang and other Skarlets do it and people get hit by it.

 

[ryublaze]

For blocking Scorpion's 50/50, I always hold down and look for the overhead and once I see it I let go.

 

[xWildx]

I don't think the frames have much to do with it, considering how, for the most part, I was still able to do Mileena's U+4 off of a jump in 2 and a half years into MK.

I think the animation is the real giveaway. The more obvious the windup, the easier it is to know exactly what's coming.

 

[Red Reaper]

Hey guys. There is still so much for me to learn about fighting games. I am trying to up my game and I was wondering if there is a general consensus for how close an overhead and a low attack have to be frame wise for them to be fuzzyable?

Like let's say my character has a 17 frame low, and a 21 frame overhead. Is that fuzzyable? Does it depend on how close the animations are?

What do you guys think? What are some supposed 50/50s that you guys always fuzzy in fighting games?

It's definitely possible to fuzzy guard that character. I fuzzy guard Catwoman (16 frame overhead, 14 frame low) but it's more timing based than reactionary. If he changes up his timing then I have to change my fuzzy timing or risk getting hit.

As for seeing the 50/50 I'm not sure. Sometimes I feel like I see it but I'm not even sure..

 

[Eddy Wang]

Can people react to scorpion 50/50 or not? Have 2 people sat down offline and practiced blocking the 50/50 over and over again and come to a consensus? This is something that I've been wanting to know for a long time now. Right now I am thinking that anything 20 frames or higher can be blocked on reaction.

Eddy Wang FCP/EMP SCAR Ninj AK L0rdoftheFLY Skarlet community I also want to hear ur opinion on Skarlet's down slash if it can be blocked on reaction cuz it's 2 frames slower than scorpion's b2 and I always thought it could be reacted to so I never do it but I always see Scar and Eddy Wang and other Skarlets do it and people get hit by it.

Skarlet is tricky because her downslash can come out at any time during the red dash animation, so holding down and wait for a overhead will only make you eat a 13f downslash, or a grab.
due the fact that she can do it at any time, ppl instinctively find standard timings to block your overhead, if you know how they're reacting to, you can always screw up their timing by trowing it sooner, or later, or doing something else less risky like a blockstring, Depending of how they're expecting you to finish your red dash.
if they're afraid of the blockstrings and are blocking low most of the time by getting up in just one frame, is very likely that a very late downslash will hit them when they try to crouch.
You see Ninj using this tech against his brother ponylove when he blockstrings a f212,1+2 into the very late rd frame to downslash

But the concept is simple, ppl that constanctly fuzzy guards rd, are more worried in blocking, so you should always take advantage of this and screw them over by doing what they expect less, is a mind game inside that changes acordingly of what you read everytime they block a rd dash.

this is why solid says skarlet is very annoying.

 

[ryublaze]

Skarlet is tricky because her downslash can come out at any time during the red dash animation, so holding down and wait for a overhead will only make you eat a 13f downslash, or a grab.
due the fact that she can do it at any time, ppl instinctively find standard timings to block your overhead, if you know how they're reacting to, you can always screw up their timing by trowing it sooner, or later, or doing something else less risky like a blockstring, Depending of how they're expecting you to finish your red dash.
if they're afraid of the blockstrings and are blocking low most of the time by getting up in just one frame, is very likely that a very late downslash will hit them when they try to crouch.
You see Ninj using this tech against his brother ponylove when he blockstrings a f212,1+2 into the very late rd frame to downslash

But the concept is simple, ppl that constanctly fuzzy guards rd, are more worried in blocking, so you should always take advantage of this and screw them over by doing what they expect less, is a mind game inside that changes acordingly of what you read everytime they block a rd dash.

this is why solid says skarlet is very annoying.

thanks that's the kind of answer I was looking for. I think Slips knows this too, delaying the 50/50 to screw up the opponent's timing. Are you talking about killa_solid or another solid? killa_solid is one of the very few people I know that knows exactly how to fight skarlet and he full combo punishes me if I try to go for empty red dash or delayed ds/slide.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

I've always read in Tekken that moves around the 20 frame mark are reactable, so that's probably the case...

 

[cyke_out]

I don't think the frames have much to do with it, considering how, for the most part, I was still able to do Mileena's U+4 off of a jump in 2 and a half years into MK.

I think the animation is the real giveaway. The more obvious the windup, the easier it is to know exactly what's coming.

I think people are confusing the different definitions of Fuzzy guarding.

Fuzzy guarding original started being coined in 3d game like virtua fighter. in that game, it's an option select used to defend against two or more possible actions. You perform one movement, a quick duck an immediate standing guard in order to defeat a throw attempt or a mid attempt. If the opponent tried to do a throw, your duck would beat it, and if he tried to do a mid, your standing block would beat it. This is possible due to the different speeds the throw and the mid activate and the entire process is determined by frames, and has nothing do to with reactions or animations.

It seems the way people are using the term in 2d games, particularly this thread, is purely reactionary. Blocking a certain way, usual in the height where the unseeable attack would hit and then quickly changing your block by reacting to the seeable attack. So if you are placed in a situation where the opponent could use a 15 frame low or a 22 frame overhead, you would always first start with blocking low, since anything under 20 frames is unreactable, but if the opponent went with the reactable overhead you can react fast enough to properly block that.

 

[Eddy Wang]

thanks that's the kind of answer I was looking for. I think Slips knows this too, delaying the 50/50 to screw up the opponent's timing. Are you talking about killa_solid or another solid? killa_solid is one of the very few people I know that knows exactly how to fight skarlet and he full combo punishes me if I try to go for empty red dash or delayed ds/slide.

Ary "@solidsnake" Dias from angola says Skarlet is very annoying

Ppl that doesn't feel the threat of empty red dash, are still going to get punished by others "dashes playtyles" like "late ex upslash" that can't be punished on block, "no dash" that allows whiff punishing, "u3~low dagger" or calculated dashes that doesn't ends right in front of them ^^

 

[Cossner]

So according to this (http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php) the average reaction time is 215 milliseconds. If the game runs at 60 frames per second, that means the average reaction time in frames is 12.9. Now if we add the fact that you still have to read the animation and stuff, I'd add a little bit more, but yeah if you're on point I'd say 15 frames maybe?

 

[cyke_out]

15 frames? interesting. Everything else I've read on tekken forums have always touted the 18-20 frames being the earliest you can react. It still doesn't change the theory of reactionary fuzzy guarding.

 

[PainForge]

Can people react to scorpion 50/50 or not? Have 2 people sat down offline and practiced blocking the 50/50 over and over again and come to a consensus? This is something that I've been wanting to know for a long time now. Right now I am thinking that anything 20 frames or higher can be blocked on reaction.

I think even if people have attempted such a test, the results might not favor just a yes or no answer. Considering there is a 1 frame difference in the execution between his 50/50 and that one person may have faster hands than someone else. Other factors like input device (hitbox, stick, pad) could come into play as well, along with eye-hand coordination. Other than that, does anyone know if someone from the community gave frame data for going from stand blocking to crouch and vice versa?

 

[Cossner]

15 frames? interesting. Everything else I've read on tekken forums have always touted the 18-20 frames being the earliest you can react. It still doesn't change the theory of reactionary fuzzy guarding.

I think the only way to answer this is through the scientific process.

But lbsh, we're too lazy to actually do tests ha, who's gonna sit here, document test subjects reacting to different 50/50 situations and compile the results. No one. So we can only speculate.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Reaction time is different when you are expecting something vs when it surprises you and you react.

Using Skarlet for an example:

Her rd dash allows for a mixup between mb ds and slide. The overhead is what people look for and if you don't use meter, it can be easily reacted to.

Kabal ND into saw or overhead was reactable by blocking low and waiting till you saw the overhead animation start. However many times in pressure you would get hit by d4 overhead when in theory they have the same start up frames.

The difference is ND and rd dash telegraph the mixup making them easier to react to. I i find scorpians mix ups harder to react to because they were never telegraphed. This is key to understand. A frame number will never be agreed on but we can agree on a range. I tend to believe that it is between 15ish to 16ish frames

Ex from nooby's thread :http://testyourmight.com/threads/frame-data-testing-reference.39100/
15 flash Lightning kick
16 bat's Slide
17 Cat dash

If I'm looking for the slide I'm pretty sure I could block it on reaction....but not if I'm looking for the f3