General/Other - Smoke Inconsistency of Smoke Bomb

[ShaolinGunFu]

I think it's okay for Cyrax to have a slow projectile that is safe

that net leads to a 10 hour combo.

 

[Deleted member 9158]

I wanted to like smoke but he's got troubles.

 

[MajinBerserker]

Thats because people aren't armoring through yet, set csz on ex slide reversal and do the vortex. the computer does it like clockwork but eventually good players will do it because in the restand vortex its super obvious when the smoke bomb is coming, well eventually have to do b1 24/b3d4u3 everynow and then to gain the respect or b3/b1 smoke towards etc

In the case of the opponent armoring, the armor absorbs Smoke Bomb and you get hit/launched. B3 would have been blocked.

I'm referring to my B3 actually hitting and the the Smoke Bomb continuing my combo.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Because Smoke Bomb is punishable by armor, I have no doubt that in the future Smoke wont be able to stand up to characters with armored launchers very well. Imagine a Tempest player that really knows the MU. If he guesses right he does like 40%. Why would I even attempt to do the vortex or anything unsafe involving smoke bomb? Hell, it forces Smoke to have to hit confirm F4, 111, F13, B2...all of which have their own issues.

 

[RM Ree]

Alright then, I don't need to listen to your rotten attitude and tone, think what you want.

Sorry man, I didn't mean it as aggressively as it came off. I do want to spread an even perspective on this though. Let me try again.

I don't believe smoke ball/ smoke bomb is a problem. The design of the character is you either have a "semi-safe" mix up with string > smoke ball and risk the jump gap. In exchange, the smoke ball itself is safe. But do note that MB smoke bombs retain their powerful utility in exchange for meter. Meter which Smoke is saving due to not having an armored wake-up.

On the other hand, you can commit to the mix up without risk of a jump-out by throwing unsafe trident. This option actually punishes the jump out attempt if Smoke players read the opponents attempt. That's a fair advancement of the meta.

I understand the preference of smoke ball/ smoke bomb to trident for standing reset reasons. I get the aversion to smoke ball not combo'ing after certain normals, but it seems intentional as trident holds a lot of power when used later in a combo.

 

[Scott The Scot]

I get ya man. And maybe I'm too quick to defend his positives. Believe me, I won't be loving the matches where I'm having gaps armored all the time.

Instead of threads pointing out nothing but "wrongs," what about threads where solutions, or alt strategies, are proposed? Ex: B1-Smoke Bomb has a gap. Does staggering his safe B1 alone, to test opponent, provide better outcome?
Your thread about 213 knockdown options when Smoke is out of meter is also a good example.

I do post about solutions. I prefer it that way. But I just like to play Devils advocate sometimes to represent both sides of the argument so that people don't come to conclusions that are, well, not as thought out as they should be.

The thing about staggering B1, if you know it's going to get blocked why would you do it in the first place? Just go for the other 50/50 option lol.

 

[EMPEROR_KNICKS]

Smoke ball is super dumb.

Slow start up makes it a bad projectile.
You have the choice to place it in front of or behind opponent...throwing in front of a running opponent almost always misses anyways.
And listen to the awesome mechanics of smoke ball midcombo:

Off of B3 it hits every time except max range then it is too slow to combo around 30% of the time, cool.
Off of b1 hit, it doesn't combo almost every time except if you use f3. F3 hits them then you do b1 at that range or if you meaty b1 after a 213 ender. Finding the actual range is next to impossible in a match so you have to commit to using meter in order to even combo from b1. Which is cool but if they block mb tele then you're like -1000 and if you hit mb smoke ball...nice high 20s combo for a meter pleb.

#fixsmokeball

Wtf am i reading did i just read a -6 smoke ball, that combos, is great for trading leads into a vortex and always a threat anywhere, mb its plus 8, and makes your mixups safe mb or not,

 

[MajinBerserker]

I do post about solutions. I prefer it that way. But I just like to play Devils advocate sometimes to represent both sides of the argument so that people don't come to conclusions that are, well, not as thought out as they should be.

The thing about staggering B1, if you know it's going to get blocked why would you do it in the first place? Just go for the other 50/50 option lol.

Stagger B1 to bait their armor? It's safe, why not? Just throwing out some suggestions.

Also, going for the 50/50 doesn't mean you're guessing their block every time. I get what you mean, though. There's a level of commitment to address. Why waste a bunch of time with staggers when you can commit to a 50/50 and possibly be rewarded heavily.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

In the case of the opponent armoring, the armor absorbs Smoke Bomb and you get hit/launched. B3 would have been blocked.

I'm referring to my B3 actually hitting and the the Smoke Bomb continuing my combo.

oh Im talking about it on block, because the previous discussion is about it being safe on block maybe youre replying to the OP

 

[RM Ree]

Stagger B1 to bait their armor? It's safe, why not? Just throwing out some suggestions.

Also, going for the 50/50 doesn't mean you're guessing their block every time. I get what you mean, though. There's a level of commitment to address. Why waste a bunch of time with staggers when you can commit to a 50/50 and possibly be rewarded heavily.

Staggering pressure with Smoke sounds really good. With as many levels as there are to Smoke's mix up, between OH/ low, smoke ball/ trident, MB smoke bomb, armor gaps, etc... You stagger an f1? They're free to a follow up of your choice while they wait for that 2nd hit low.

I also like the idea of b1 > block, or other similar restraints. If they're going to armor the gap, it's likely going to be a reversal and you'll block it easy.

 

[Scott The Scot]

Sorry man, I didn't mean it as aggressively as it came off. I do want to spread an even perspective on this though. Let me try again.

I don't believe smoke ball/ smoke bomb is a problem. The design of the character is you either have a "semi-safe" mix up with string > smoke ball and risk the jump gap. In exchange, the smoke ball itself is safe. But do note that MB smoke bombs retain their powerful utility in exchange for meter. Meter which Smoke is saving due to not having an armored wake-up.

On the other hand, you can commit to the mix up without risk of a jump-out by throwing unsafe trident. This option actually punishes the jump out attempt if Smoke players read the opponents attempt. That's a fair advancement of the meta.

I understand the preference of smoke ball/ smoke bomb to trident for standing reset reasons. I get the aversion to smoke ball not combo'ing after certain normals, but it seems intentional as trident holds a lot of power when used later in a combo.

I'm not even talking about jumping out B1~Smoke Bomb no idea where that came from dude lol. You pointed out and suggested that Smokes EX Smoke Bomb being plus was pretty silly. I simply said that there's a gap that you can punish Smoke. I then compared it to Erron Blacks EX Sand Grenade since his 50/50's dont jail into that special and it is also a plus on block launcher. But you dismissed that for some reason and I didn't understand.

Stagger B1 to bait their armor? It's safe, why not? Just throwing out some suggestions.

Also, going for the 50/50 doesn't mean you're guessing their block every time. I get what you mean, though. There's a level of commitment to address. Why waste a bunch of time with staggers when you can commit to a 50/50 and possibly be rewarded heavily.

You're saying that you know they're going to block the overhead, so you're trying to bait the armour. That's fine, it would totally work. But why would you do that? Since you have the read on the opponent blocking overhead, why not just go low so you're going to get a full combo. If you stagger B1 and you hit them, you can't hit confirm it - you've just left a lot of damage on the table. That could be what wins or loses that match.

Anyway, I think I'm clocking out of this discussion lads. You all enjoy. Back to the lab for me...

 

[MajinBerserker]

Staggering pressure with Smoke sounds really good. With as many levels as there are to Smoke's mix up, between OH/ low, smoke ball/ trident, MB smoke bomb, armor gaps, etc... You stagger an f1? They're free to a follow up of your choice while they wait for that 2nd hit low.

I also like the idea of b1 > block, or other similar restraints. If they're going to armor the gap, it's likely going to be a reversal and you'll block it easy.

Yes, all good options to keep exploring as Smoke continues to develop and opponents keep learning the match up.
I think his 50/50 is incredible, and the options he gets from it. Thinking of other offensive options to go along with that really excites me about the character.

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

that net leads to a 10 hour combo.

I mean Smoke lmao whoops

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

Wtf am i reading did i just read a -6 smoke ball, that combos, is great for trading leads into a vortex and always a threat anywhere, mb its plus 8, and makes your mixups safe mb or not,

A move in the game isn't working how it's supposed to.

And the physics of it is really dumb. Idgaf make it unsafe just allow it to work properly so I can actually get good meterless damage.

 

[MrSunshine]

Because Smoke Bomb is punishable by armor, I have no doubt that in the future Smoke wont be able to stand up to characters with armored launchers very well. Imagine a Tempest player that really knows the MU. If he guesses right he does like 40%. Why would I even attempt to do the vortex or anything unsafe involving smoke bomb? Hell, it forces Smoke to have to hit confirm F4, 111, F13, B2...all of which have their own issues.

i think the meta will come down to baiting out armor with fade when they expect bomb

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

I've never had B3-Smoke Bomb not connect. B3 connects at the start of round positioning, which is pretty friggin' good for a low, meterless starter into possible vortex.
If you're trying to use B3 as a starter out of that range, honestly, it's just pushing your luck. And any slight movement in the opponent or collision with B3 that still lets B3 win the trade, yeah I'd expect Smoke Bomb to be wonky there.

B1-Smoke Bomb (regular) doesn't connect midscreen except off a meaty. Okay.
IT'S SAFE.
Would you rather it be "adjusted" to connect and be full combo punishable? Cyber Sub and Cyrax can connext their Net/Freeze off B1. UNSAFE.
If you're worried about the opponent always blocking low midscreen when you're meterless, B1-Spear. I bet you'll have some success. That's also uninterruptable by armor. And as unsafe as Sub/Cyrax's B1-special, meterless. So Smoke is in the club.

I know you can position the Smoke Bomb, like Tremor's Rocks, but I've honestly never had to do that with Smoke in the week+ I've been learning him.
And running over/through some projectiles? C'mon, that's been in the game.

So now I have to do b1 into spear and no longer have a vortex to go along with my shitty meterless damage? Which I'll get shitty meter damage with a b1~spear starter anyways...so...

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

So we're just going to ignore the part where smoke ball is unpunishable and MB smoke bomb is + huh?

No? I don't see what that has to do with the fact that it won't combo.

 

[RM Ree]

No? I don't see what that has to do with the fact that it won't combo.

Trident will.
/thread

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

Wtf am i reading did i just read a -6 smoke ball, that combos, is great for trading leads into a vortex and always a threat anywhere, mb its plus 8, and makes your mixups safe mb or not,

How many times do I have to tell you that you can armor it. Hell you can even jump out of it and full combo punish with a jump in.

It's good for trades if ppl have slow reactions. Like d1 into smoke bomb won't work if ppl are counter poking immediately after. Even EX will get stuffed.


Anyway. I like how it works. It's consistently inconsistent. It makes its vortex not brain-dead.

 

[MajinBerserker]

So now I have to do b1 into spear and no longer have a vortex to go along with my shitty meterless damage? Which I'll get shitty meter damage with a b1~spear starter anyways...so...

Would you rather he had 0 options without meter off of his B1 midscreen?

 

[MajinBerserker]

If B1-regular Smoke Bomb not comboing midscreen (besides a meaty) is really a deal breaker, there's other character choices guys. Same with the gaps.

Otherwise, we'll agree to disagree. I'm loving Smoke. Sorry there's positivity. I'm out.

 

[Poser Paul]

What insanly goood mids are you talking about his f4 doesnt low crush trust me ive played alot of milenas. B2 is kinda good its good but not groundbreaking. An insanely good mid is someone like cassie 11 frame advancing mid that crushes everything even jumps.

His neutral isn't even that good slow smoke bomb slow teleport etc name me one good thing that makes his neutral that much better from the rest of the cast. Ill stay play the character hes my boy since umk3 but right now smoke needs alot of work he has no dirt only his vortex in my opinion

You shouldn't even be throwing out his teleport. It's very punishable

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

Trident will.
/thread

Not close thread because you are taking away a vortex character's vortex lmao like wtf

 

[Red Hood MKX]

You shouldn't even be throwing out his teleport. It's very punishable

I know bro but you can i use it counter projectiles in the neutral its kinda slow but you can use it on a read

 

[SithLaird]

So we're just going to ignore the part where smoke ball is unpunishable and MB smoke bomb is + huh?

So that justifies it being inconsistent? They are 2 completely different things. Whether it should be safe or plus has nothing to do with it's inconsistently comboing.