Question - Grandmaster I'm having trouble figuring out what to do in neutral...

[A2EZ]

So I only played a little of MK9 as Reptile, but I don't like how he is in this game, so my 2nd choice was Sub Zero.

The ice clone is super interesting to me, so I went with Grandmaster of course.

I feel like neutral game with SZ is so much work. I don't actually have the game, so maybe it takes time, but it's like

-I have to trade damage on fireballs to get a ice ball, so by default I'm taking a risk there.
-Against teleport characters, if I try to set up neutral with a clone, it seems like they can just teleport on reaction and just hit me and break the clone.
-Against Dvorah, she can actually just poke me through the clone without freezing, so I imagine other chars with long ranges could too.
-What kind of punish should I do if I do freeze them full screen? I just slide and uppercut.
-Why does clone on wakeup sometimes do nothing? I'm pretty sure the cooldown time ended. I also noticed it didn't really work right out of a dash.
-I'm not sure at what screen position I should be trying to play at. It feels risky trying to play mid range because they can armor through a clone on reaction and the fireball is too risky to catch someone off guard. Full screen I have to do a lot to get any chip and avoid being chipped myself.

I feel like I have to play around everyone else and that my only time to shine is in the corner, in which case I still have to take risks stringing back 3,3 ice ball or overhead, since the clone will usually break by the time either of these things are blocked (if i'm remembering correctly). Or I have still have to read an armor attack, in which I lose the corner, the one place to shine. I tried implementing the thing on this forum about timing a move with the clone so that it eats up the armor, but I still got hit.


Out of three places, full screen, mid screen, and up close, I can't play full screen because he has to do a lot to get any chip. And I have to be on point to get an ice ball. Either I have to trade damage on a fireball (which would suck in a last hit situation), or be able to read that they will throw multiple fireballs and use a clone to block one to get the iceball off. Or use meter to slide through one. Up close, I need a little time to even get a clone out before I get beat and pressured by other character's normals/strings. Mid screen is feasible since I have the advantage when I make a clone, but if they can teleport or just armor through on reaction to the clone, I lose out. If I do get a freeze, I'm only getting 15-18% (this will prob change with practicing combos though).


It just sucks to try to work around a lot of stuff to get a freeze and not that much damage, to where other chars just get to high low teleport and get mad damage. It also seems like he has to use his meter super wisely. I want to main Subs but he seems too honest and not cheap enough, lol.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

B2

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

In all seriousness I strongly believe sub zero is in the top discussion

I'm sure all your questions will be answered when djt , Woundcowboy tom brady, Detroitballin, smar show him off in tourney

Go watch footage of Detroit last night

Sub zero is good there is absolutely no doubt

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Sorry triple post
F42
F42 clone
F42 ex ice baiting punishes
B2 over n over at max range
D4 clone

Sub zero is about space control. Dude set a clone and u have instant guessing game of is he gonna throw clone or shoot ice. Trades favor sub because you'll recover and end up putting them in the corner where Sub owns everyone

 

[Everlast]

It also sounds like you are not getting the counter poking aspect of the game. You will have to use the ON HIT frame advantage of your D3 or D4 when counter poking to throw a mix up in attempts to open them up. D4 midscreen pushes back so you cant follow up with a mixup but its great in footsies and like Pig said D4~Clone.

 

[Train]

In all seriousness I strongly believe sub zero is in the top discussion

I'm sure all your questions will be answered when djt , Woundcowboy tom brady, Detroitballin, smar show him off in tourney

Go watch footage of Detroit last night

Sub zero is good there is absolutely no doubt

link for footage plz ?

 

[lm Tweakk]

F42 clone is godlike
d4 is godlike
b2 is godlike
His neutral is godlike
He's godlike

 

[Rickyraws]

Sub Zero is an incredibly potent force in the corner, but with Grandmaster he 'breaks' the footsie game with the threat and options he hads with his clone when he's not there. His mix up game and combos in the mid screen all lead his opponents to the corner. In the neutral game you have options and general strategies that would be conducive to his semi defensive-aggression in Grandmaster. Tom Brady's guide on the forums actually tells you how you should be employing his best normals and you can piece the puzzle of what he's built to do by taking a look at the frame data. A lot of helpful tips are sprinkled throughout the other variation discussions as well, and watching Sub Zero players on youtube/stream will aid in figuring what to do from when the match starts to when the opponent is out of the corner. The moves the users listed above are echoed for a reason.

Sub Zero is a terror in this game. I'm glad NRS became more cultured and ended their Lin Kuei racism.

 

[ShanxterX]

They should change the name of neutral to subzero that is how good he is in that aspect of the game . Whatever the posters above said just do it and you will be fine

 

[SonicBoomBrad]

So you throw out an ice clone, and then laugh at your opponent because they can't play footsies anymore. Stand behind your clone and throw out footsies if they approach, if not, just zone. Once they're afraid to approach you get to do all kinds of fun things, like run up from half screen and b2. Good luck.

 

[Paul the Octopus]

To turn the question around - what are everyone's tactics against grandmaster sub zero in the neutral game?

I've been really struggling to think of an answer (I play Kano and Jax).

With Jax I can ex rush punch on reaction but it's tough to consistently react in a game situation and it costs meter. Knocking them down is nice but subs wake ups are decent anyway so the reward isn't even that amazing. Otherwise I just try to play patient but it feels like a pretty uphill battle against anyone decent.

 

[Qwark28]

Sorry triple post
F42
F42 clone
F42 ex ice baiting punishes
B2 over n over at max range
D4 clone

Sub zero is about space control. Dude set a clone and u have instant guessing game of is he gonna throw clone or shoot ice. Trades favor sub because you'll recover and end up putting them in the corner where Sub owns everyone

F42 ex ice actually has a hole just like f42 clone, the ex move will punish you just the same.

 

[Tom Brady]

F+42~Clone is not safe. Any string into EX Ice Blast can be interrupted. Any sting into Clone gets punished by almost the entire cast. And if you are going to bait a punish, you would use F42 block or F42~ex clone, not F42~ex ice blast. For now SZ players can play all willie-nillie.... However, eventually 4~Clone will become a must over strings into clone.

And SZ is absolutely one of the best characters in the game along with many others. The game is pretty well balanced when it comes to characters that have options.

 

[Tom Brady]

So you throw out an ice clone, and then laugh at your opponent because they can't play footsies anymore. Stand behind your clone and throw out footsies if they approach, if not, just zone. Once they're afraid to approach you get to do all kinds of fun things, like run up from half screen and b2. Good luck.

and this is also the biggest misconception. SZ is not a character who hides behind the clone. Those days died in 2012... He is offensive more than he is defensive. There are some matches where he does hide behind the clone, but for the most part he is an offensive character.

He is also more about traps than just 50/50. In time the ease of damage will get harder.. Opponents will begin to block the low/overhead better and actually learn to punish the overhead even with a clone out. Opponents will also begin to tech the throw into clone.. A LOT.. Then we will all need to come up with more set ups the besides ones you all read in the Grandmaster guide. The guys I play with all do this...the 50/50's get blocked and punished or even countered and my throw gets teched a lot.

I'm working on better set ups - mainly ones where you get frozen even after a teched throw as well as setups where I can throw you forward or backward and still throw you into the clone.

 

[Qwark28]

and this is also the biggest misconception. SZ is not a character who hides behind the clone. Those days died in 2012... He is offensive more than he is defensive. There are some matches where he does hide behind the clone, but for the most part he is an offensive character.

He is also more about traps than just 50/50. In time the ease of damage will get harder.. Opponents will begin to block the low/overhead better and actually learn to punish the overhead even with a clone out. Opponents will also begin to tech the throw into clone.. A LOT.. Then we will all need to come up with more set ups the besides ones you all read in the Grandmaster guide. The guys I play with all do this...the 50/50's get blocked and punished or even countered and my throw gets teched a lot.

I'm working on better set ups - mainly ones where you get frozen even after a teched throw as well as setups where I can throw you forward or backward and still throw you into the clone.

The last part can be done with F1 clone IIRC. Forward throw has them frozen pseudo-airborne.

Agreed about the traps. The whole concept of the ice clone is a forward moving footsie wall.

 

[LaidbackOne]

Sub Zero is an incredibly potent force in the corner, but with Grandmaster he 'breaks' the footsie game with the threat and options he hads with his clone when he's not there. His mix up game and combos in the mid screen all lead his opponents to the corner. In the neutral game you have options and general strategies that would be conducive to his semi defensive-aggression in Grandmaster. Tom Brady's guide on the forums actually tells you how you should be employing his best normals and you can piece the puzzle of what he's built to do by taking a look at the frame data. A lot of helpful tips are sprinkled throughout the other variation discussions as well, and watching Sub Zero players on youtube/stream will aid in figuring what to do from when the match starts to when the opponent is out of the corner. The moves the users listed above are echoed for a reason.

Sub Zero is a terror in this game. I'm glad NRS became more cultured and ended their Lin Kuei racism.

But first they commited a Lin Kuei genocide

 

[Tom Brady]

The last part can be done with F1 clone IIRC. Forward throw has them frozen pseudo-airborne.

Agreed about the traps. The whole concept of the ice clone is a forward moving footsie wall.

Im talking about post knockdown setups. Doing an unsafe clone cancel is something I gave up on.

 

[Qwark28]

Im talking about post knockdown setups. Doing an unsafe clone cancel is something I gave up on.

When it comes to "close" clones, as in right next to your opponent, I haven't found a setup on knockdown that leaves them close. I'm using the F12 ender right now into clone.

 

[A2EZ]

if not, just zone.

With what? An ice ball that comes out at half the rate of good projectiles and does no chip? The only thing I'd be able to zone with is the ice clone itself, and throwing that takes away the clone obviously.

Any sting into Clone gets punished by almost the entire cast.

the 50/50's get blocked and punished or even countered and my throw gets teched a lot.

This is what I'm noticing and a good reason of why I made this topic. I feel like I just get punished for trying to either create a clone, 50/50, or 50/50 behind a clone (except for corner), so I'm asking for what alternatives I should do.

 

[Qwark28]

With what? An ice ball that comes out at half the rate of good projectiles and does no chip? The only thing I'd be able to zone with is the ice clone itself, and throwing that takes away the clone obviously.




This is what I'm noticing and a good reason of why I made this topic. I feel like I just get punished for trying to either create a clone, 50/50, or 50/50 behind a clone (except for corner), so I'm asking for what alternatives I should do.

Clone throw makes for good zoning if you use it at the right times. If someone is closing distance recklessly they will eat 1 or 2 which is quite a hefty amount of damage.

Use safe stuff and keep mixing them up, you have a legit 50-50 in B3 and B2, another in throw - backthrow, or you can just safely keep up the pressure with cancels like F4 clone.

 

[SparkedSynapse]

-I have to trade damage on fireballs to get a ice ball, so by default I'm taking a risk there.

EX Iceball eats projectiles, it chews through them so you don't need to trade if you can Read that they'll throw one.
Ice Klone can tank projectiles for you, and if you both throw them at the same time, you will not trade at all while they get frozen.
These are two super useful tactics with GM Sub.

-Against teleport characters, if I try to set up neutral with a clone, it seems like they can just teleport on reaction and just hit me and break the clone.

Teleport characters will almost never TP on reaction - it will definitely involve a Read of some kind. Make like you're GOING to Clone, but either EX Ice Burst or just Block. Once you Block their Teleport, [11,Iceball] for a free combo.

-Against Dvorah, she can actually just poke me through the clone without freezing, so I imagine other chars with long ranges could too.

D'Vorah is a special girl. We will deal with her. Certain attacks of hers (with her ovipositors/pincers) can poke through because they're not part of her hurtbox, but you can bait that and either d4 her out of it or EX Freeze again. EX Freeze is so much better in this game than it was in MK9 in terms of raw speed and Advantage (both on Hit + Block)

-What kind of punish should I do if I do freeze them full screen? I just slide and uppercut.

Anything works! The beauty of GM Sub-Zero is that even by freezing them at Full Screen, that is already a Punish in itself. As the timer ticks down, keeping players away like this can really start to screw with their minds. You can pinpoint the exact "click" in a player's brain when they get desperate and go from, "play safely" to "just rush Sub-Zero down what's the WORST that can happen haha right!?" Usually, when you freeze someone and you can't get near enough to hit, throw another Iceball. You'll do damage and they're still far from you. EX Iceball's projectile-chew means you are decent against Zoners.

-Why does clone on wakeup sometimes do nothing? I'm pretty sure the cooldown time ended. I also noticed it didn't really work right out of a dash.

Clone will not come out if the enemy is standing inside your character's hitbox/hurtbox. You have to not let them get too close before you Clone.

-I'm not sure at what screen position I should be trying to play at. It feels risky trying to play mid range because they can armor through a clone on reaction and the fireball is too risky to catch someone off guard. Full screen I have to do a lot to get any chip and avoid being chipped myself.

As Sub-Zero, your Mantra is whatever Risk you take, is the same amount of Risk the enemy player is taking. Think about what would logically be the best move for them. They can Armor through a clone on reaction if they're waiting for it, and looking out for it specifically. At around Mid to Close range, d4's have some obnoxiously good uses. There's little reason not to spam them. Irritate the enemy, make him CrouchBlock, then hit him with a b2. As risky as it feels for you to play at mid-range, you can poke a bit to get your enemy antsy and make them jump at you. Then Clone and their fate is sealed. If you're playing against someone more Melee-centric, you can be content with staying away from them and making them aggress, or getting close and Cloning when you can feel they're about to rush you. Against zoners or projectile-heavy chars, you can Eat their Projectiles with EX Iceball and use Run (ffBlock) to sprint up to them and go for a 2,4,2 delayed Slide, or a 1,2,3,Slide or anything.

I feel like I have to play around everyone else and that my only time to shine is in the corner, in which case I still have to take risks stringing back 3,3 ice ball or overhead, since the clone will usually break by the time either of these things are blocked (if i'm remembering correctly). Or I have still have to read an armor attack, in which I lose the corner, the one place to shine. I tried implementing the thing on this forum about timing a move with the clone so that it eats up the armor, but I still got hit.

A good pressure string in the corner is f4,2,Clone.
In MKX, it's the equivalent of MK9's, 2,1,2,Clone.

Sometimes, once you put down a Clone against their face, the best thing to do is Block. Some players will get antsy and try to blow through the Clone instantly with Armor. Block it, 1,1,Iceball -> 2,4,2...f,3,3Slide (or whatever combo you're comfortable with right now) and pressure with your f4,2,IceClone so that they get up into it. This eliminates the guesswork of trying to time your hit at exactly the time they go through the clone, and it keeps them in there. It's less flashy, but it works more often and is easier on you.

Out of three places, full screen, mid screen, and up close, I can't play full screen because he has to do a lot to get any chip. And I have to be on point to get an ice ball. Either I have to trade damage on a fireball (which would suck in a last hit situation), or be able to read that they will throw multiple fireballs and use a clone to block one to get the iceball off. Or use meter to slide through one. Up close, I need a little time to even get a clone out before I get beat and pressured by other character's normals/strings. Mid screen is feasible since I have the advantage when I make a clone, but if they can teleport or just armor through on reaction to the clone, I lose out. If I do get a freeze, I'm only getting 15-18% (this will prob change with practicing combos though).

EX Iceball chews through Projectiles. Learn to love that move. Adore it. Enter a romance with it. Buy it flowers.
Up close, you can Cancel any String into Clone. And it doesn't even have to be on Block! You can just go for the safety of doing

1,1 Clone, or
b3,3 Clone, or
b1,2, Clone

regardless of whether they block it or not. That Clone is really annoying. It's essentially an Iceball that stands still and controls the Space in front of you. Much of your strength as Sub-Zero is to irritate your enemy. Mid screen, against Teleporters, you can Clone and then dash up to stand in front of it. Pressure with d3 and d4. This is kind of unsafe, but dealing with Teleporters is kind of something all Sub-Zeros go through. He knows you want to Clone. You know he knows you want to Clone. Sometimes holding Block is best. If he doesn't take the bait, check him with a d3 or d4. Even in the corner, you know he'll want to Port out because Logically, that's his "best" option in that situation. GM Sub-Zero is about sneaking into the Logic Loop in your opponent's head. You want to keep that Loop going because the longer you do, the longer you know exactly what to do. He wants to break the loop at all costs. Damage with Sub-Zero is less important than with other characters because he has more tools with which to catch you with a guaranteed combo. Still, definitely practice some combos. Run is tricky until you get used to it, just remember it naturally-cancels into any Normal/string.

It just sucks to try to work around a lot of stuff to get a freeze and not that much damage, to where other chars just get to high low teleport and get mad damage. It also seems like he has to use his meter super wisely. I want to main Subs but he seems too honest and not cheap enough, lol.

Haha, I disagree. I think Sub-Zero has the potential to be one of the trickiest characters in the game. Your Ice Clone is oppressive. Remember that. Hold it over people's heads, threaten to put it on the screen. Sometimes, don't. When you do, watch them fidget in fear of it. Ice Clone creates a Guessing Game that Sub-Zero controls, not the other player. They should be playing around you. You have the ability to slow the game down, and they have to react to that.

 

[LaidbackOne]

Gonna post this here since people anwser many questions anyway. I cant seem to get the timing after throwing my opponent into the clone in the corner. I mean after he freezes, Subby gets knocked down and I cant do anything except slide... Any tips? Can I get up faster and get a combo or anything else?

 

[-narshkajke-]

great thread so many mind games with sub

 

[Qwark28]

Gonna post this here since people anwser many questions anyway. I cant seem to get the timing after throwing my opponent into the clone in the corner. I mean after he freezes, Subby gets knocked down and I cant do anything except slide... Any tips? Can I get up faster and get a combo or anything else?

You can tech roll run into B2.

You can also get up and do 123 slide.

 

[Qwark28]

Teleport characters will almost never TP on reaction - it will definitely involve a Read of some kind. Make like you're GOING to Clone, but either EX Ice Burst or just Block. Once you Block their Teleport, [11,Iceball] for a free combo.

B12 iceball.

Anything works! The beauty of GM Sub-Zero is that even by freezing them at Full Screen, that is already a Punish in itself. As the timer ticks down, keeping players away like this can really start to screw with their minds. You can pinpoint the exact "click" in a player's brain when they get desperate and go from, "play safely" to "just rush Sub-Zero down what's the WORST that can happen haha right!?" Usually, when you freeze someone and you can't get near enough to hit, throw another Iceball. You'll do damage and they're still far from you. EX Iceball's projectile-chew means you are decent against Zoners.

You can run up into anything, even if you get knocked down unless it's untechable.

As Sub-Zero, your Mantra is whatever Risk you take, is the same amount of Risk the enemy player is taking. Think about what would logically be the best move for them. They can Armor through a clone on reaction if they're waiting for it, and looking out for it specifically. At around Mid to Close range, d4's have some obnoxiously good uses. There's little reason not to spam them. Irritate the enemy, make him CrouchBlock, then hit him with a b2. As risky as it feels for you to play at mid-range, you can poke a bit to get your enemy antsy and make them jump at you. Then Clone and their fate is sealed. If you're playing against someone more Melee-centric, you can be content with staying away from them and making them aggress, or getting close and Cloning when you can feel they're about to rush you. Against zoners or projectile-heavy chars, you can Eat their Projectiles with EX Iceball and use Run (ffBlock) to sprint up to them and go for a 2,4,2 delayed Slide, or a 1,2,3,Slide or anything.

Subzero 90% of the time takes way less risk than anyone else does. That's why his neutral is so good.

EX iceball followup is JIP 242 run 123 slide.

A good pressure string in the corner is f4,2,Clone.
In MKX, it's the equivalent of MK9's, 2,1,2,Clone.

A good pressure string in the corner is F4 clone. Doing F42 into anything that is not EX clone in the corner will get you murdered against a good player

MK9 Sub never did 212 clone vs armoured characters either.

Sometimes, once you put down a Clone against their face, the best thing to do is Block. Some players will get antsy and try to blow through the Clone instantly with Armor. Block it, 1,1,Iceball -> 2,4,2...f,3,3Slide (or whatever combo you're comfortable with right now) and pressure with your f4,2,IceClone so that they get up into it. This eliminates the guesswork of trying to time your hit at exactly the time they go through the clone, and it keeps them in there. It's less flashy, but it works more often and is easier on you.

If you do an unsafe cancel then their armour will always hit you.

No matter your comfort level, practice ending combos in F12, it's the optimal clone setup, where did F33 slide even come from?

Your go-to pressure once an opponent starts blocking is scouting out D4 and hit confirming into F4 clone again.

EX Iceball chews through Projectiles. Learn to love that move. Adore it. Enter a romance with it. Buy it flowers.
Up close, you can Cancel any String into Clone. And it doesn't even have to be on Block! You can just go for the safety of doing

1,1 Clone, or
b3,3 Clone, or
b1,2, Clone

regardless of whether they block it or not. That Clone is really annoying. It's essentially an Iceball that stands still and controls the Space in front of you. Much of your strength as Sub-Zero is to irritate your enemy. Mid screen, against Teleporters, you can Clone and then dash up to stand in front of it. Pressure with d3 and d4. This is kind of unsafe, but dealing with Teleporters is kind of something all Sub-Zeros go through. He knows you want to Clone. You know he knows you want to Clone. Sometimes holding Block is best. If he doesn't take the bait, check him with a d3 or d4. Even in the corner, you know he'll want to Port out because Logically, that's his "best" option in that situation. GM Sub-Zero is about sneaking into the Logic Loop in your opponent's head. You want to keep that Loop going because the longer you do, the longer you know exactly what to do. He wants to break the loop at all costs. Damage with Sub-Zero is less important than with other characters because he has more tools with which to catch you with a guaranteed combo. Still, definitely practice some combos. Run is tricky until you get used to it, just remember it naturally-cancels into any Normal/string.

Again, not safe whatsoever. 11 isn't even a mid.

D3 is not used for pressure.

If you don't know the appropriate combos you are wasting your time with this character. The entire logic behind Subzero's damage is that he corners you with one punish from anywhere on the screen.