I hate Sub-Zero

[Shawi]

I’m just a casual but going to give my unpopular opinion……I can’t stand sub-zero in this game.

I’ve seen a lot of talk online about him being the worst character in the game, but I find him very hard to play against online. I probably lose against the combo of sub and sarena 9 times out of 10. I use Geras with KL.

• his b2 is impossible to react to online
• his slide is impossible to react to online
• his ex slide punishes my hourglass charges, even with lowhat on the screen
• his dive kick is practically plus
• trying to armour through his strings is risky online
• he practically has a clean 50:50

I decided to set up some recordings in practice (hidden random) to practice against, and I could block everything on reaction……easily every time. With the dive kick I could at least take my turn back time.

I know a lot of you will disagree, like the legend Tom Brady, but it feels like sub completely changes between online and offline. Am I missing something or is this also the general consensus?

 

[ticklebandit!]

Sounds like you hate the poor state of this game online. The worst lag in an NRS game since mk9/injustice 1. On par with mkx and possibly worse.

 

[BKV2]

I feel the same way and I thought I was the only one. I wouldn’t consider myself a noob but I definitely don’t lab enough like I should so I get caught with nonsense. I just hate how they all play. Run, run, run. Ice clone. Supposedly he’s the worst but I struggle against him so much. He’s just fucking annoying

 

[Plop]

Sub's been like this for the last few games. It's why he's usually my secondary

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

You are lucky you skipped going against Grand Master. That version of Sub would've made you quite the game in less than a month.
Here, he is 1/3 of the nightmare he was in his prime days.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

I decided to set up some recordings in practice (hidden random) to practice against, and I could block everything on reaction……easily every time. With the dive kick I could at least take my turn back time.

Do you have online input delay set up in practice? It sounds like you probably don't. Turn it on and then run your tests again

 

[Savage8-8]

When he's talked about in those situations they are talking about offline. Online is not the best indicator on a characters viability.

If you are saying your having problems with sub offline then that's a whole different discussion.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Sub is garbage and it sounds like you don’t know the MU too well

online does play a factor tho. I’ll give you that. Even then, he still shouldn’t be getting away with too much. He doesn’t have a clean 50/50 unless he’s using tremor. He can’t hit confirm his low or OH, and the OH is reactable (but online in bad ping makes it hard to react)

nearly every single one of his strings have gaps, especially his f12. Don’t be afraid to armor because even if he baits it out and blocks, what is he punishing you with? His meterless damage is poor (unless he’s using a kameo that gives him a combo), so he relies on meter a lot

Just upblock the dive kick. It’s a punish every single time

Ice clone is a joke. You can legit be inside the clone and not get frozen lol. Nothing he does into ice clone is safe on block. There’s even some cases where an attack into ice clone is unsafe ON HIT

 

[BKV2]

Sub is garbage and it sounds like you don’t know the MU too well

online does play a factor tho. I’ll give you that. Even then, he still shouldn’t be getting away with too much. He doesn’t have a clean 50/50 unless he’s using tremor. He can’t hit confirm his low or OH, and the OH is reactable (but online in bad ping makes it hard to react)

nearly every single one of his strings have gaps, especially his f12. Don’t be afraid to armor because even if he baits it out and blocks, what is he punishing you with? His meterless damage is poor (unless he’s using a kameo that gives him a combo), so he relies on meter a lot

Just upblock the dive kick. It’s a punish every single time

Ice clone is a joke. You can legit be inside the clone and not get frozen lol. Nothing he does into ice clone is safe on block. There’s even some cases where an attack into ice clone is unsafe ON HIT

When you say nothing he does into clone is safe on block are you saying I could poke him after a string or normal he does and I read it’s gonna be a clone after that ?

 

[xKhaoTik]

When you say nothing he does into clone is safe on block are you saying I could poke him after a string or normal he does and I read it’s gonna be a clone after that ?

It’s best to just armor. Whatever string he does into clone, he’s extremely punishable afterwards.

there’s some characters who don’t need to armor tho. Sindel for example. She can scream and get a combo. She can also do this after certain normals into clone on hit

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

When you say nothing he does into clone is safe on block are you saying I could poke him after a string or normal he does and I read it’s gonna be a clone after that ?

Here this is how bad it is from poke into clone on HIT where he's over +30 from cancel advantage, his recovery on it is absurd almost every single character can punish with armor and numerous others can use meterless punishes if he pok into clone on block:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1732821445078626612

No do not poke clone you will freeze, use moves that reach farther, Rain has whirlpool or far Geysers that's a meterless punish. Ashrah can use 2 or B2 and cancel into DF3 for full combo.
It depends on your character what you use but almost every character can punish, you have to go through all your moves until you find it.
Some Kameos punish it as well like Sareena boomerangs which you can use with any character.
Reiko stars go right through it and even beat Sub Zero Kameo ice shield.

Tell us your character and I'll help you find it.
Sub Zero is bottom tier he's either Bottom 1 or 2.
To fuzzy guard his mix, always block low and when you see hammer animation keep holding block but let off Down and you will 1-2 frame fuzzy the overhead. It's reactable offline, online is trash at the moment, horrible input delay and rollback even in decently good connection (60ms) which is most connections. Just fuzzy then punish overhead.
What Kameo is These Sub Zeros using?

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

When you say nothing he does into clone is safe on block are you saying I could poke him after a string or normal he does and I read it’s gonna be a clone after that ?

No it's reactable because of his looooong recovery he looks like he landed and is good but still punishable. You can stand there look and register it, make a sandwich then armor.
But being serious set AI in practice to record him doing D1 and on second one D1xxClone and on third do F12xxClone on "Hidden playback random" and practice punishing with armor only when clone comes out. I promise you can react just takes 30min and you will destroy most Sub Zero's online.
All his buttons 12, 21, F123, 122, 212, 34, B34 all have armor gaps and his F12 ends his turn -6 max range. If you start punishing clone on reaction he will be forced to do Divekick which you can UpBlock on reaction(another thing to practice on hidden playback random)
But it's very likely you can punish clone meterlessly

What you need to get out of your head is to not mash on your turn, play Reactionary to Sub wait for him to stick out that unsafe clone or yolo Divekick. Punish those 3 times and you will condition them not to use it ever again. They will probably scramble after than and autopilot BF2 clone push and F12
F12 can be punished with reversal throw and if he clones it should wiff clone with most characters so it's an instant option. The other thing I do is B4 so it's a mix between throw and B4 which usually wiff at least with Sindel.
And Sindel destroys Subs clone like ignores it and it doesn't even exist in that matchup.
But I also play Sub

 

[Shawi]

Do you have online input delay set up in practice? It sounds like you probably don't. Turn it on and then run your tests again

Yes I have it turned on. I only play online and I don’t know of any scene to play offline with in Manchester, UK.

Just upblock the dive kick. It’s a punish every single time.

This one drives me mad. If I misjudge the distance even slightly and he lands in front of me, rather than hitting me, then I get full combo punished because the recover is almost instant.

 

[Shawi]

You are lucky you skipped going against Grand Master. That version of Sub would've made you quite the game in less than a month.
Here, he is 1/3 of the nightmare he was in his prime days.

MKX, yes of course…….but I played Lao because I hated how floppy Sub’s moves looked

I loved MK9 sub, Tom Brady days. He wasn’t great in the end (after many clone nerfs), but had a solid game plan that he excelled at and I really enjoyed playing. He’s the one character I want back

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Yes I have it turned on. I only play online and I don’t know of any scene to play offline with in Manchester, UK.



This one drives me mad. If I misjudge the distance even slightly and he lands in front of me, rather than hitting me, then I get full combo punished because the recover is almost instant.

He has 21f recovery on wiff Divekick you can be safe if you Upblock early enough. Just helping
But in most situations UpBlock is a risk they made it have 15f animation stuck in UpBlock so players can punish it.

Go in practice and set up Sub to instant air Divekick at max range where he will hit and just outside of range then practice Upblocking the one that will hit and blocking in time on the one that won't.
This is what I did, I recently picked up Sub Zero but I have a practice buddy at my local tournament that mains Sub/Reptile
Hope it helps
Use hidden select playback random

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

MKX, yes of course…….but I played Lao because I hated how floppy Sub’s moves looked

I loved MK9 sub, Tom Brady days. He wasn’t great in the end (after many clone nerfs), but had a solid game plan that he excelled at and I really enjoyed playing. He’s the one character I want back

MK9 Sub was my favorite and Brady was extremely good with him when everyone else considered Sub trash. The way you could use Clone offensively and defensively and to corner trap was very good. I miss 212 into clone and slide into clone those combos looked dope.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

Yes I have it turned on. I only play online and I don’t know of any scene to play offline with in Manchester, UK.

Then it's the same. What's reactable in practice with input delay on doesn't just randomly become unreactable online.

 

[Shawi]

MK9 Sub was my favorite and Brady was extremely good with him when everyone else considered Sub trash. The way you could use Clone offensively and defensively and to corner trap was very good. I miss 212 into clone and slide into clone those combos looked dope.

Hahah yeah hitting ex slide into the clone and then whiffing the b1 to get the 2 after it!!

Hit confirming 22 into ice ball was amazing, and on block going into 4 then clone, loved that!

I can’t for the life of me understand why they removed the clone position matching sub’s position when it was used, that was just phenomenal!

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Hahah yeah hitting ex slide into the clone and then whiffing the b1 to get the 2 after it!!

Hit confirming 22 into ice ball was amazing, and on block going into 4 then clone, loved that!

I can’t for the life of me understand why they removed the clone position matching sub’s position when it was used, that was just phenomenal!

Everyone complained about clone

He has 21f recovery on wiff Divekick you can be safe if you Upblock early enough. Just helping
But in most situations UpBlock is a risk they made it have 15f animation stuck in UpBlock so players can punish it.

Go in practice and set up Sub to instant air Divekick at max range where he will hit and just outside of range then practice Upblocking the one that will hit and blocking in time on the one that won't.
This is what I did, I recently picked up Sub Zero but I have a practice buddy at my local tournament that mains Sub/Reptile
Hope it helps
Use hidden select playback random

@BKV2
Ok here's a universal option vs Subs Clone off poke and his IA Divekick:

Every character can do this, just replace Sindel's Scream with Armor and you can do it on reaction, you can wait till his feet touch ground which is a long time.
Punishing Divekick you can UpBlock and go straight into 1 starter but for the sake of your issue of it wiffing just Backdash as soon as you see them jump into animation of Divekick, it's reactable and they wiff and are -21 and you can do any far reaching move like highs, mids, lows to punish. It's actually better for them to wiff Divekick because it'such easier to punish than UpBlocking Divekick

This should help, if you're somehow in corner and Sub managed to trap you there, UpBlock punish into fastest starter.

 

[Shawi]

Everyone complained about clone

That’s the concept of the clone people hated and complained about. It’s a real “you f’d up” move.

I was talking about the shape of the clone though. For example, when you did d4xxClone the clone was actually a frozen sub doing d4, same for every other move that was cancelled into clone, even a dash!…it was epic.

 

[ReD WolF]

I can just picture Tom Brady's eye twitching uncontrollably while reading the original post. LOL

 

[Shawi]

I can just picture Tom Brady's eye twitching uncontrollably while reading the original post. LOL

Hahahahaha! Great comment!

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

Then it's the same. What's reactable in practice with input delay on doesn't just randomly become unreactable online.

Isn't the input delay just 3f static? I don't really feel the difference with it on.
The online Netcode is atrocious. It's like a completely different game offline at locals vs KL with at minimum 75ms delay it feels like I'm constantly dealing with 7-10f of input delay because the online isn't stable even on wired solid connections and the Rollback is not working like it did in MK11, it feels more like mid MKX, it's unstable I've had many dropped inputs during rollback where my friend sees a different button than me on my gaming monitor. I'm not the only one saying this, most pros are saying this on Twitter.
I'm not mad at NRS either, because Discovery is auditing WB and they owe far more than MK1 sold in copies, it was rushed and they did a new engine/core game. It will probably get fixed by KP2 but online is pretty bad unless you have the best internet available vs the best internet(Fiber). That's not even counting connections between US and Europe with 150-200ms Wired.

I can definitely understand many WiFi connections on KL causing good players to not be able to react to Subs B2. I heard Rewind say he couldn't react to Smoke's overhead online which is damn near half a second, let alone Invisible (screen shake).

 

[Bulletz4Breakfast]

That’s the concept of the clone people hated and complained about. It’s a real “you f’d up” move.

I was talking about the shape of the clone though. For example, when you did d4xxClone the clone was actually a frozen sub doing d4, same for every other move that was cancelled into clone, even a dash!…it was epic.

I liked that too but I was talking about clone all together was complained about. Remember when he didn't have clone.
I just want a 2second clone with 15-20f less of recovery so it can be used safely and possibly for defensive and offensive options. The move is by far the best move Sub ever had other than ground freeze from older games that was an infinite.

If they made clone better and damage I would 100% be happy maining him alone. Classic Bi Han skins wouldn't hurt either ; )

 

[BKV2]

Here this is how bad it is from poke into clone on HIT where he's over +30 from cancel advantage, his recovery on it is absurd almost every single character can punish with armor and numerous others can use meterless punishes if he pok into clone on block:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1732821445078626612

No do not poke clone you will freeze, use moves that reach farther, Rain has whirlpool or far Geysers that's a meterless punish. Ashrah can use 2 or B2 and cancel into DF3 for full combo.
It depends on your character what you use but almost every character can punish, you have to go through all your moves until you find it.
Some Kameos punish it as well like Sareena boomerangs which you can use with any character.
Reiko stars go right through it and even beat Sub Zero Kameo ice shield.

Tell us your character and I'll help you find it.
Sub Zero is bottom tier he's either Bottom 1 or 2.
To fuzzy guard his mix, always block low and when you see hammer animation keep holding block but let off Down and you will 1-2 frame fuzzy the overhead. It's reactable offline, online is trash at the moment, horrible input delay and rollback even in decently good connection (60ms) which is most connections. Just fuzzy then punish overhead.
What Kameo is These Sub Zeros using?

Johnny and Li Mei