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General/Other - Kenjutsu How to save Kenjutsu.

Lokheit

Noob
There has been a lot of talk about Balanced, some think the variation is dead, others that he's fine, some need more time to judge... but I'm not seeing enough talk about another of Kenshi's variations that IMO is going to suffer a lot more in the new meta: Kenjutsu.

On his current state, Kenjutsu is like if Balance lost the zoning, the safety on EX Rising Karma and Push, the hit advantage on combo ender and the meterless damage and replaced all of it with just a faster OH option while still having the same armor issues. On top of that, some of his launchers have crazy bad damage scaling.

Here are some of Kenjutsu's biggest "philosophy" flaws IMO:

- His only ranged option, tele-toss, can be ducked and is really unsafe. On hit it leaves opponents at the worse distance imaginable: close enough to risk a full combo punished if you whiff a second attemp and too far to pressure the wakeup properly (push or bladenado won't reach without a short run in).

- Tele-toss is also his main combo ender, which isn't optimal to keep momentum and you need to sacrifice damage if you want a better situation after a combo.

- His push is unsafe, even the EX one, and the reward is too small as throwing an opponent to full screen leaves him with just his tele-toss (completing the cycle of bad synergies).


I want to use this thread to propose and hear ideas and opinions on how he could be enhanced to be usable in the current state of the game.

This is something that I've been thinking, about how he could fit in the current meta without having 1 bar armored launchers while trying to make his moves synergize with each other instead of sabotaging his gameplan:

- Remove his DB4 tele-slam/hold move (I know I know, I said this was about buffing him, but keep reading a bit more).

- Keep the block advantage on push the same as it is right now (keep reading this will make sense in a moment).

- Make his push have the option to meter burn on hit, and when you do it, the current EX DB4 animation and effect is triggered (toning the damage scale from the current 0.95 to around 0.75 or something similar, in adition from the scaling of the push itself).




So what does this mean?

- Opponents would need to respect Kenjutsu when they're at midrange. The push goes from "bad reward bad synergy and unsafe" to a tool that has to be respected.

- He still has the same bad ranged option, but now at midrange opponents will respect him and many times they will try to camp at long range if they have the tools to fight there, which Kenshi can use to create more situations where he can hit them with it.

- If he doesn't meter burn the push, opponents still need to go through that midrange distance if they want to get in.

- Now the fact that tele-toss leaves opponents at the bad distance that I described above, is actually balanced, it leaves opponents in the verge of entering his midrange distance without directly putting them there.

- He still needs 2 bars for an armor launcher trade like most characters with that option.

- Finally (this isn't really important just cosmetic), using more pushes per game make his beautiful brutality come more often.


Something as simple as removing a move and adding its effects to another one in exchange of meter would make Kenjutsu really interesting (sort of what happened with Cryo or Warlock too back in the day when a string was removed and transformed into a special move).

He could also have some quality of life stuff like increasing the advantage of his meterless Rising Sword as it currently sucks big time for some reason, but I think the change I described would help him big time and make him relevant.

Just wanted to share this and hear other Kenshi players opinions and ideas for this variation.

I'm probably missing a lot of Kenshi players, tag any that I miss: @Pig Of The Hut @ismael4790 @Immortal @DarksydeDash @MrProfDrPepper @Fellow_Swordsman @coconutshrimp @DDutchguy
 
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Lokheit

Noob
TLDR VERSION:

Remove Kenjutsu's DB4 and EX DB4 from the game and make his BF2 able to meter burn into the current EX DB4. For the explanation on why this makes a lot of sense for his current toolset, read the wall of text :p
 

Belial

Noob
erm I dont really get what you are trying to do. Do you remove armor from bf2 or no? if yes, than you're killing the character. if no, then you are breaking it by making bf2 an armored launcher
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
That might work but i think Kenjutsu just needs a serious rework coz armored launchers aren't coming back and making it cost 2 bars wouldn't help him much (i don't want another 20 buffs which looks nice on paper but in reality make little to no difference, quality over quantity). Currently Kenjutsu is simply the worst variation of Kenshi which is a real shame since i really liked playing it.

Been thinking a lot about what to do with it, first some quality of life buffs:

- exdb4 is now -5 on block (down from -29 lol)

- exdf1 is -7 on block (down from -10)

- blade nando is -8 (down from -12)

- ex push is now -5 (down from -13 lol)

No idea why NRS made ex RK in that variation -7, its terrible and nobody wants to use it, coz on top of weird trajectory it scales so badly its not even funny.

Now for some serious stuff. I honestly think Kenjutsu need some rework in his strings. This variation should excel in neutral and up close.

- give him some fast (6-8 frames), slightly + (like +1/2), advancing string, may have a gap, something in line of Cassie b12,4 etc

- give him a proper oh/low string, it may be unsafe (like -9/-10), f2 is slow, awkward and whiffing it - which happens is like total destruction.

- maybe make b1 like 11 startup frames.

After that he will become viable imo, not top tier, not on level of lets say Tremor post patch but at least there will be something to work with.
 
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DDutchguy

Raiden enthusiast
The idea of being able to meter burn the push into a combo does sound interesting. Are we talking only EX push or also meterless push? I think the latter could be interesting as you could convert any regular push (so an unarmored push) into a combo if you have bar.

One thing I do have to mention is that it should not be ignored how much pushback BF2 has. Yes it's -13, but with the amount of pushback (and blockstun too maybe?) it has the opponent's only reliable option is a slide or maybe in Mileena's case a roll.

@Immortal if you're sweep distance away and you do a push, can slide-like moves punish it on block? Because if not it's practically safe. Doing a push at point blank isn't a very good idea anyway so I don't think BF2 being -13 is that big of a deal. Or maybe I just haven't played Kenjutsu enough.
 

Lokheit

Noob
The idea of being able to meter burn the push into a combo does sound interesting. Are we talking only EX push or also meterless push? I think the latter could be interesting as you could convert any regular push (so an unarmored push) into a combo if you have bar.
Yeah the idea would be to be able to meterburn any version, regular one gives you a combo for a bar on hit and the EX one allows you to trade in that range. I know the pushback makes only slides and rolls actually punish the current one, but any character can start pressuring you for free anyway. He has many moves that function like with Balanced but are more negative (a lot in some cases) for some reason.
 

DDutchguy

Raiden enthusiast
Yeah the idea would be to meterburn any version, regular one gives you a combo for a bar on hit and the EX one allows you to trade in that range. I know the pushback makes only slides and rolls actually punish the current one, but any character can start pressuring you for free anyway.
That would give Kenjutsu an extremely dangerous mid-range game indeed. Still, it may actually be a bit too powerful meterlessly if you count how often any you hit a meterless push as Kenjutsu a like say 28% push is a very dangerous thing to have. There would have to be compensations though; combining this with Kenjutsu's safe 50/50s would be a bit overboard so those would have to go, which would be pretty much a rework of the variation.
 

Pterodactyl

Jacqui main since Dead Alliance
erm I dont really get what you are trying to do. Do you remove armor from bf2 or no? if yes, than you're killing the character. if no, then you are breaking it by making bf2 an armored launcher
You're not understanding.

He's saying you should be able to meter burn bf2 to turn it into a launcher. Not EXbf2.

Like how Goro can meter burn his Punchwalk to turn it into a launcher. You spend a bar after it hits.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
MFW Kenshi players are using "bad damage scaling" as a mechanism for collusion buffs when Kenjutsu's setplay categorically does about the damage as Warlock Quan's.



Did I also mention Kenjutsu retained a perfectly functional armoured move?
 

Lokheit

Noob
You're not understanding.

He's saying you should be able to meter burn bf2 to turn it into a launcher. Not EXbf2.

Like how Goro can meter burn his Punchwalk to turn it into a launcher. You spend a bar after it hits.
Yeah the Goro example is a good one, 1 meter on hit (from any version) equals to launcher and if you want armor and launcher that's 2 bars, basically make his midrange something opponents want to avoid by either camping at max range or closing the as fast as they can. The push is still negative on block so not overwhelming on block, but you don't want to be predictable pressing buttons on that range if Kenjutsu has a bar.
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
The idea of being able to meter burn the push into a combo does sound interesting. Are we talking only EX push or also meterless push? I think the latter could be interesting as you could convert any regular push (so an unarmored push) into a combo if you have bar.

One thing I do have to mention is that it should not be ignored how much pushback BF2 has. Yes it's -13, but with the amount of pushback (and blockstun too maybe?) it has the opponent's only reliable option is a slide or maybe in Mileena's case a roll.

@Immortal if you're sweep distance away and you do a push, can slide-like moves punish it on block? Because if not it's practically safe. Doing a push at point blank isn't a very good idea anyway so I don't think BF2 being -13 is that big of a deal. Or maybe I just haven't played Kenjutsu enough.
EX Push is semi-safe. For example vs Reptile EX Slide (i always test vs this move) its only safe at absolutely max distance, like literally - one step closer and it punish it clean. Now consider this, you have to be like 100% on point with judging the distance, if youre closer (not point blank) its punishable and if you whiff... you're... hang tight... -42 (recovery frames), you're pretty much dead vs anybody.

The problem with Kenjutsu is - he has no real dirt, something to keep him going, it's like a text book honest character - i made my move you block it, so its your turn, period - in a game where better characters have + on block fast advancing strings (even with gaps, which now means very little), flash parry (Tremor), decent low to oh or oh to low string. Thats the problem with Kenjutsu it doesnt excel at anything but is quite bad at few things and to top it all off he has no backdash (in any variation).

@STRYKIE - pick up Kenjutsu and show us how its done, otherwise gtfo.
 
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Lokheit

Noob
MFW Kenshi players are using "bad damage scaling" as a mechanism for collusion buffs when Kenjutsu's setplay categorically does about the damage as Warlock Quan's.



Did I also mention Kenjutsu retained a perfectly functional armoured move?
1) The post isn't actually about his damage scaling at all, sorry if mentioning the fact that it's bad among his flaws (it's a fact that there is no point on using EX DB1 at all because of this and no it won't lead to damage even close to Warlock's, he can from others but that one is garbage) was misleading but the post talks about deeper design flaws than just that (for the record I even propose making the damage scaling of a move heavier than it is right now).

2) What has Warlock and his bad tracking portal sword have to do even remotely with Kenjutsu being bad? It's a completly different character with a completly different gameplan but if you want to compare, I play Warlock (not as much as other characters but I know the gameplan and all his optimal combos) and the meterless damage and the ability to keep momentum after a combo is better than Kenjutsu's (meterburn damage is about the same mostly because EX DB1 and EX DB4 have good scaling) while his zoning is 10000 times better than Kenjutsu's...

Yes, I think Warlock needs some buffs too and yes the tracking on that sword is pure crap and I'm 100% in for Warlock fixes too, but I don't see the point of bringing that here or how in any way it's a reason for not asking for Kenjutsu's improvements.
 

Sunny_D

Green Arrows personal Shooty guy
Hes fine, he has his uses for different matchups. Also balanced is perfect now and so is possessed. Hes a legit character now and this is coming from someone who has seconded him sonce release.
 

Fellow_Swordsman

"One mind, one blade."
Interesting idea. What I would do is rework his db4 move. Ex db4 should have armor, but still slam them afterwards, but if I choose to spend the bar, then Kenshi will leave them stunned. And to avoid having to spend more bar for combos, the normal db4 should have an ex follow up so you can leave them stunned. The best way I think to improve Kenjustu's mid range game is to give a string off of his b1. For example, B111 would have the two swords attacks from 111. As for his push, it's fine. It's -13, but it has plenty of pushback and blockstun.
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
There has been a lot of talk about Balanced, some think the variation is dead, others that he's fine, some need more time to judge... but I'm not seeing enough talk about another of Kenshi's variations that IMO is going to suffer a lot more in the new meta: Kenjutsu.

On his current state, Kenjutsu is like if Balance lost the zoning, the safety on EX Rising Karma and Push, the hit advantage on combo ender and the meterless damage and replaced all of it with just a faster OH option while still having the same armor issues. On top of that, some of his launchers have crazy bad damage scaling.

Here are some of Kenjutsu's biggest "philosophy" flaws IMO:

- His only ranged option, tele-toss, can be ducked and is really unsafe. On hit it leaves opponents at the worse distance imaginable: close enough to risk a full combo punished if you whiff a second attemp and too far to pressure the wakeup properly (push or bladenado won't reach without a short run in).

- Tele-toss is also his main combo ender, which isn't optimal to keep momentum and you need to sacrifice damage if you want a better situation after a combo.

- His push is unsafe, even the EX one, and the reward is too small as throwing an opponent to full screen leaves him with just his tele-toss (completing the cycle of bad synergies).


I want to use this thread to propose and hear ideas and opinions on how he could be enhanced to be usable in the current state of the game.

This is something that I've been thinking, about how he could fit in the current meta without having 1 bar armored launchers while trying to make his moves synergize with each other instead of sabotaging his gameplan:

- Remove his DB4 tele-slam/hold move (I know I know, I said this was about buffing him, but keep reading a bit more).

- Keep the block advantage on push the same as it is right now (keep reading this will make sense in a moment).

- Make his push have the option to meter burn on hit, and when you do it, the current EX DB4 animation and effect is triggered (toning the damage scale from the current 0.95 to around 0.75 or something similar, in adition from the scaling of the push itself).




So what does this mean?

- Opponents would need to respect Kenjutsu when they're at midrange. The push goes from "bad reward bad synergy and unsafe" to a tool that has to be respected.

- He still has the same bad ranged option, but now at midrange opponents will respect him and many times they will try to camp at long range if they have the tools to fight there, which Kenshi can use to create more situations where he can hit them with it.

- If he doesn't meter burn the push, opponents still need to go through that midrange distance if they want to get in.

- Now the fact that tele-toss leaves opponents at the bad distance that I described above, is actually balanced, it leaves opponents in the verge of entering his midrange distance without directly putting them there.

- He still needs 2 bars for an armor launcher trade like most characters with that option.

- Finally (this isn't really important just cosmetic), using more pushes per game make his beautiful brutality come more often.


Something as simple as removing a move and adding its effects to another one in exchange of meter would make Kenjutsu really interesting (sort of what happened with Cryo or Warlock too back in the day when a string was removed and transformed into a special move).

He could also have some quality of life stuff like increasing the advantage of his meterless Rising Sword as it currently sucks big time for some reason, but I think the change I described would help him big time and make him relevant.

Just wanted to share this and hear other Kenshi players opinions and ideas for this variation.

I'm probably missing a lot of Kenshi players, tag any that I miss: @Pig Of The Hut @ismael4790 @Immortal @DarksydeDash @MrProfDrPepper @Fellow_Swordsman @coconutshrimp @DDutchguy
I'm flattered you tagged me but my expertise is in balanced, I've been playing the variation since day one and I've only played that variation of kenshi for admittedly stupid reason, that being I need the blindfold and I am not okay with sento being broken in possessed lol. Although I like your suggestions and think that they would definitely help the variation, although I think they should be more focusing on his up close options since that seems to be (from my limited knowledge of kenjutsu) where he shines since he is one of the few characters in the game that still has 50/50's
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
And I want to see you play the game but you do not want to show me any footage.
Who the fuck are you? This isn't a topic about me, its about Kenjutsu.

The only place you can find my footage is in streams of people, probably vs St9rm, Nivek and several others in their stream archives / some tournaments also if you go way back. Want it, go find it i never really cared for it. Thou i see no point in this at all, this footage has nothing to do Kenshi nor MK XL now.

Feel free however to to hit me up for 1on1 Kenshi mirror if you have any doubts, im always up for mirrors if anybody want to prove me something. This is the last time im responding to you about that.