Question - Ancestral How to improve Kung Jin Ancestral popularity?

[haketh]

I actually think Shaolin is the best. By a pretty good margin too. It's just that Bojutsu is by far the easiest so people gravitate to it.

Curious, why's that? I can see it but I haven't explored it at all

 

[SaltShaker]

I've fought this MU probably more than any outside of GM Sub, and it's basically the tools. Everyone saw the high meterless damage which was patched, punishable EX Bow Spins, and 5 minute to learn BnB's Day 1 and jumped to Bojutsu, but overall it isn't as good and I think it'll show over the long run. A few reasons are-

Ease. Easy doesn't always mean better, and naturally in Month 1 and 2 people will gravitate to the easiest way to win without exploring the more difficult/technical characters, or even if they do it takes longer to bring it out. C.Viper, Zod, etc, were "crap" until their potential was found. I can see Shaolin going down a similar path.

Zoning. Where zoning isn't too great so far in this game, Bojutsu is one of the characters that can be zoned out a fair amount during a MU. Whether it be taking some hits, a lot of chip, guessing wrong trying to get in, etc, he can lose life on the outside. His only tool is MB Flying Kick which everyone watches out for. Shaolin is almost impossible to zone with those mid hitting and low hitting chakrams, timing in the OH drop down, AND the flying kick. Also, he can do zoning of his own for certain MU's which Bojutsu can't do at all.

Damage. The main selling point for Bojutsu is "the meterless damage, I save my bars" but that isn't the majority of the cast. Shaolin has crap meterless damage true, but has standard 1 bar damage compared to the cast which is fine. He also has the EX Chakram to end combos off a normal into a 50/50. So damage wise you can get your combo, end it in full adv, go for 50/50, and if you guess right you're getting 50% for one bar midscreen. That's what I know, but maybe other Shaolin main's can get more. If you guess wrong you're still getting good damage for the initial combo. It's nice to have that meterless high damage in Bojutsu, but I think it's a little overrated at this point when looking at the overall damage possibilities of the character and in the game.

Mixups. Bojutsu is great but it is what it is. Shaolin has a ton more possibilities for using extra options to confuse the opponent. It may take more strategy, knowledge, and using more reads, but from almost any range the opponent has to think what you'll actually do and have counter measures ready. Anything other than the "Bojutsu sweet range" you know exactly what to do to counter. Shaolin is harder to defend against at most ranges because of his multiple options.

Putting the characters next to each other there really isn't that much of a reason as to why people are still mostly playing Bojutsu, I think they just are. If it wasn't for the spins and their EX Versions in Bojutsu it would be a no brainer, but I don't think that and the meterless damage is more valuable than the entire arsenal of Shaolin.

 

[Skylight1]

I've fought this MU probably more than any outside of GM Sub, and it's basically the tools. Everyone saw the high meterless damage which was patched, punishable EX Bow Spins, and 5 minute to learn BnB's Day 1 and jumped to Bojutsu, but overall it isn't as good and I think it'll show over the long run. A few reasons are-

Ease. Easy doesn't always mean better, and naturally in Month 1 and 2 people will gravitate to the easiest way to win without exploring the more difficult/technical characters, or even if they do it takes longer to bring it out. C.Viper, Zod, etc, were "crap" until their potential was found. I can see Shaolin going down a similar path.

Zoning. Where zoning isn't too great so far in this game, Bojutsu is one of the characters that can be zoned out a fair amount during a MU. Whether it be taking some hits, a lot of chip, guessing wrong trying to get in, etc, he can lose life on the outside. His only tool is MB Flying Kick which everyone watches out for. Shaolin is almost impossible to zone with those mid hitting and low hitting chakrams, timing in the OH drop down, AND the flying kick. Also, he can do zoning of his own for certain MU's which Bojutsu can't do at all.

Damage. The main selling point for Bojutsu is "the meterless damage, I save my bars" but that isn't the majority of the cast. Shaolin has crap meterless damage true, but has standard 1 bar damage compared to the cast which is fine. He also has the EX Chakram to end combos off a normal into a 50/50. So damage wise you can get your combo, end it in full adv, go for 50/50, and if you guess right you're getting 50% for one bar midscreen. That's what I know, but maybe other Shaolin main's can get more. If you guess wrong you're still getting good damage for the initial combo. It's nice to have that meterless high damage in Bojutsu, but I think it's a little overrated at this point when looking at the overall damage possibilities of the character and in the game.

Mixups. Bojutsu is great but it is what it is. Shaolin has a ton more possibilities for using extra options to confuse the opponent. It may take more strategy, knowledge, and using more reads, but from almost any range the opponent has to think what you'll actually do and have counter measures ready. Anything other than the "Bojutsu sweet range" you know exactly what to do to counter. Shaolin is harder to defend against at most ranges because of his multiple options.

Putting the characters next to each other there really isn't that much of a reason as to why people are still mostly playing Bojutsu, I think they just are. If it wasn't for the spins and their EX Versions in Bojutsu it would be a no brainer, but I don't think that and the meterless damage is more valuable than the entire arsenal of Shaolin.

Yeah that's a big reason as to why I stated most people are still playing Bojutsu at their own detriment. Really isn't anything that Bojutsu offers that Shaolin or Ancestral doesn't have that isn't 2x or even 3x better than it.

 

[Harlequin969]

I've been meaning to look into Shaolin because it has shit that's cool. I didn't realize it had about 50% 50/50 damage though. That's significant.

 

[EOTL]

I've fought this MU probably more than any outside of GM Sub, and it's basically the tools. Everyone saw the high meterless damage which was patched, punishable EX Bow Spins, and 5 minute to learn BnB's Day 1 and jumped to Bojutsu, but overall it isn't as good and I think it'll show over the long run. A few reasons are-

Ease. Easy doesn't always mean better, and naturally in Month 1 and 2 people will gravitate to the easiest way to win without exploring the more difficult/technical characters, or even if they do it takes longer to bring it out. C.Viper, Zod, etc, were "crap" until their potential was found. I can see Shaolin going down a similar path.

Zoning. Where zoning isn't too great so far in this game, Bojutsu is one of the characters that can be zoned out a fair amount during a MU. Whether it be taking some hits, a lot of chip, guessing wrong trying to get in, etc, he can lose life on the outside. His only tool is MB Flying Kick which everyone watches out for. Shaolin is almost impossible to zone with those mid hitting and low hitting chakrams, timing in the OH drop down, AND the flying kick. Also, he can do zoning of his own for certain MU's which Bojutsu can't do at all.

Damage. The main selling point for Bojutsu is "the meterless damage, I save my bars" but that isn't the majority of the cast. Shaolin has crap meterless damage true, but has standard 1 bar damage compared to the cast which is fine. He also has the EX Chakram to end combos off a normal into a 50/50. So damage wise you can get your combo, end it in full adv, go for 50/50, and if you guess right you're getting 50% for one bar midscreen. That's what I know, but maybe other Shaolin main's can get more. If you guess wrong you're still getting good damage for the initial combo. It's nice to have that meterless high damage in Bojutsu, but I think it's a little overrated at this point when looking at the overall damage possibilities of the character and in the game.

Mixups. Bojutsu is great but it is what it is. Shaolin has a ton more possibilities for using extra options to confuse the opponent. It may take more strategy, knowledge, and using more reads, but from almost any range the opponent has to think what you'll actually do and have counter measures ready. Anything other than the "Bojutsu sweet range" you know exactly what to do to counter. Shaolin is harder to defend against at most ranges because of his multiple options.

Putting the characters next to each other there really isn't that much of a reason as to why people are still mostly playing Bojutsu, I think they just are. If it wasn't for the spins and their EX Versions in Bojutsu it would be a no brainer, but I don't think that and the meterless damage is more valuable than the entire arsenal of Shaolin.

That case for Shaolin is a bit jumbled imo.

Damage: Vortex is overrated. Shaolin 50/50 does 19% meterless. Vortex costs a bar and does 22% with a chance to do 41%. Shaolin optimal 1 bar for 50/50 does 32%. 10% guaranteed is arguably better than 50/50 chance for 19%. You still get oki with the guaranteed damage. However what is great is that the Shaolin specific ender air drop leaves them close for oki. Bojutsu players ending in Bo Swing were getting no oki if the opponent rolled and ending in B34 to get oki costs 5%. Post patch 32% meterless off the 50/50 is still good but if they want oki it's only 27% which suddenly isn't that special.

Mixups: Shaolin also doesn't have more mixup options. All KJ variants have low specials to compliment cartwheel kick as a 50/50 at the end of the blockstring. However Shaolin MB low is safe and leads to a combo which is definitely a plus compared to the other 2 variations, (ancestral is meterless and leads to a combo but unsafe; bojutsu is unsafe and only leads to a combo in the corner with meter). Shaolin is already meter intensive combo wise and the usual saving meter for breaker so this tends to be a bit of a gimmicky/risky way to spend meter.

Meter: Bojutsu also has MB Bo Swing which is a multi hitting armored reversal which leads to a strong combo. It unsafe but difficult to punish for some of the cast. Its still a useful option when you know they are going to press buttons and allows you to make a stronger read. Bojutsu have more meter available will also allow you to use MB divekick more often which is great against zoning. Shaolin is better at challenging zoners but will still lose to the stronger ones and in those situations may not have the meter to help getting in.

Its Zoning and Oki vs Damage and Meter. I'd say its fairly even tbh and will probably come down to matchups in the end

 

[GAV]

Generally speaking the Ancestral variation is not that bad, and gives a lot of fun.
However everybody knows that Bojutsu is the most effective, and consequently almost everyone choose to play with him.

In my opinion, a character like him, designed on a thief concept, should be more characterized and common in its bow and arrows version, than in its "baseball bat" version.

Don't get me wrong, I don't care to make Ancestral the main Kung Jin variation, I'd just like to make it an equally interesting option.

If you agree with me, what changes would you make in a kind of
personal patch?
I have some ideas, but before I'd like to know your opinions

Have him hook up with a dude every time he wins in Bojutsu.

If he wins in the other variations, he doesn't.

 

[PND OmegaK]

Ancestral has the best meterless corner damage and is really good in certain match ups like Dragon's fire Liu Kang. Once a stun arrow is loaded they have to be wary of throwing fireballs and you can use that respect to start some offense. Unfortunately stun arrows are timed, if they made them permanent ancestral would be great. I think matchups where armour isn't as necessary and Kung Jin is more likely to be zoned out are the ones you want to pick ancestral for.

As for Shaolin, I'm yet to be convinced, It's got some neat stuff like mid hitting chakram and the arc kick mobility to throw you across the screen with the will he/wont he mixup on the overhead after it. We'll see though, I'm open minded.