Question - War God How to deal with Shinnok Imposter

[Iced_Taz]

Hello everyone,

I'm searching for a clue. I have a big problems against Shinnok Imposter. Is that a bad marchup for Kotal Khan ?
I just can't punish his 50/50 Vortex. If I guess right after his f3 I can only do d1. Can I do something against f4 sparks or teleport ?

Can I use armor db1 against his vortex ? Can I armor his b3 or f4 ?

What is the good way to fight against Shinnok ? I will be greatful for some tips.

 

[IIWade3II]

I havent played imposter but i do know when he steals kotals move he has a 50/50 vortex because the airgrab bounces. Because of that I would say shinnok wins the MU but idk how bad.

 

[Iced_Taz]

Yeah Shinnok can steal Kotal air grab. I tried to do something against Vortex but nothing work. You just must guess between B3 or F4. Kotal can't backdash or use his armor db1. For me it's a very hard matchup.

 

[IIWade3II]

My best guess would be to try and stay on top of him as much as possible. Force him to wake up with armor or armor in between kotals strings.

 

[Iced_Taz]

I can try to stay on his back, but Shinnok has that damn ex moves (sparks and bf3), that give him advanatage on block. The main problem is that damn vortex. You must guess all the time and even when you guess correct you can't punish him (b3 is only -9 and f4 ~sparks has to big pushback).

I will try to practice against Shinnok players and maybe I will discover something.

 

[legion666]

I can try to stay on his back, but Shinnok has that damn ex moves (sparks and bf3), that give him advanatage on block. The main problem is that damn vortex. You must guess all the time and even when you guess correct you can't punish him (b3 is only -9 and f4 ~sparks has to big pushback).

I will try to practice against Shinnok players and maybe I will discover something.

B3 is -11. You can punish it. F4xx Sparks if Shinnok doesn't meterburn is like -40 because the 3rd spark doesn't hit unless the f4 is spaced as far as possible. And even if the 3rd spark connects on block it is -22. You can at least run in and start you pressure.
And you know what vortex means? It means you can do nothing but guess, and you get out only if you guess right. After Shinnok hits you with Mimicry (the special that steals moves) you are at -104, so he can dance for a bit and then do low or overhead, there are no frames to backdash or armor.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Was just talking with Mr Aquaman about this. Hope the below helps:

In terms of the Shinnok match up, sure thing. After the nerf to his meterburn Hellsparks, I don't find him to be nearly the problem he was before. In either Impostor or Bone, you'll have to deal with the vortex, but the vortex, due to the frames, is fairly predictable. Since the low is the fastest, that should always be your default, and then you wait to react to the overhead (which is tough at 18 frames, but feasible). Also, keep in mind that he can only continue to the low combo (at least in Impostor) if he has a meter, so if he doesn't, you can default to the overhead. The throw is definitely a pain to stop and hurts with the damage buff, but if he uses it, it's actually good, since now you're out of the vortex. Really, the Shinnok player should only throw to close out the round, or perhaps when out of meter, so those are two good times to watch for it, teching based on where the nearest corner is. Beyond that, it's important to keep in mind that Shinnok's only viable wake up in Impostor is the EN Shoulder Rush and in Bone is the EN Low Sweep, both of which are full combo punishable. That means you can abuse him when he has no meter, and even when he has meter, in Impostor, the risk/reward for his EN Shoulder Rush is so bad that if he hits you with it, it's not a big deal. Lastly, for his Hellspark pressure, now that it's only +14, you can often jump out, as you see me do at the 38 second mark and 2:12, or armor through, at 2:48:

I hope this video also helps show the rest of what I've discussed, against a skilled player, as I think most would agree that GGA Max is a good representative of the Shinnok community. Despite how useful the move is that Shinnok steals, I think in time most Shinnok players will switch to Bone in the Kotal match up and try to zone him, but that's another conversation. Oh, one last thing, regardless of which variation Shinnok is, you can armor through his 1123 string, between the 2 and 3, which is always fun =)

 

[legion666]

Was just talking with Mr Aquaman about this. Hope the below helps:

In terms of the Shinnok match up, sure thing. After the nerf to his meterburn Hellsparks, I don't find him to be nearly the problem he was before. In either Impostor or Bone, you'll have to deal with the vortex, but the vortex, due to the frames, is fairly predictable. Since the low is the fastest, that should always be your default, and then you wait to react to the overhead (which is tough at 18 frames, but feasible). Also, keep in mind that he can only continue to the low combo (at least in Impostor) if he has a meter, so if he doesn't, you can default to the overhead. The throw is definitely a pain to stop and hurts with the damage buff, but if he uses it, it's actually good, since now you're out of the vortex. Really, the Shinnok player should only throw to close out the round, or perhaps when out of meter, so those are two good times to watch for it, teching based on where the nearest corner is. Beyond that, it's important to keep in mind that Shinnok's only viable wake up in Impostor is the EN Shoulder Rush and in Bone is the EN Low Sweep, both of which are full combo punishable. That means you can abuse him when he has no meter, and even when he has meter, in Impostor, the risk/reward for his EN Shoulder Rush is so bad that if he hits you with it, it's not a big deal. Lastly, for his Hellspark pressure, now that it's only +14, you can often jump out, as you see me do at the 38 second mark and 2:12, or armor through, at 2:48:

I hope this video also helps show the rest of what I've discussed, against a skilled player, as I think most would agree that GGA Max is a good representative of the Shinnok community. Despite how useful the move is that Shinnok steals, I think in time most Shinnok players will switch to Bone in the Kotal match up and try to zone him, but that's another conversation. Oh, one last thing, regardless of which variation Shinnok is, you can armor through his 1123 string, between the 2 and 3, which is always fun =)

You can fuzzy 7 frame low and 18 frame overhead from Bone Shaper, but in Impostor you are at -104 after the mimicry hits. He can delay low, do some stupid moves like ducking or whiffing normals or stance switch to throw off your timing. It isn't fuzziable after mimicry unless Shinnok player is predictable with it. Also he can always convert low straight into mimicry - it will only do 5% (or 7% with buff) but it will keep you in the vortex without meter. And f4xxHell Sparks does 17% with damage buff but of course it let's you out of the vortex.
After MB 1st Hell Spark at +14 the follow up with a Run Cancel F4 into more sparks is guaranteed - you can't armor, backdash and of course you can't jump out). If you MB 2nd spark the Run cancel F4, or just normal f2 will catch jumps but can be armored out of or backdashed.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

@legion666, you don't need to fuzzy it. You can just block on reaction, while taking into account player trends, spacing, match situation, etc. Without meter, F4 straight into Mimicry is possible, but, due to its poor risk-reward, is not something a Shinnok player will often do. As for MB 1st Spark run up F4 being a true block string, that's true, but not something most Shinnok players have switched over to yet. Once they do, chip will be less, and the opponent can still react as described above. I'm not saying Impostor doesn't have a good vortex. He does. It's just not that scary, because the frames on his low and overhead aren't equal, his overhead on block can be punished (which affects player trends), and his MB Hell Spark doesn't have the advantage it used to.

 

[Iced_Taz]

Ok guys thx for the tips. I will use them against Shinnok good players and record my fights. You can tell me more about gameplay.

Your tips are very helpful so one more thank you.

 

[legion666]

@legion666, you don't need to fuzzy it. You can just block on reaction, while taking into account player trends, spacing, match situation, etc. Without meter, F4 straight into Mimicry is possible, but, due to its poor risk-reward, is not something a Shinnok player will often do. As for MB 1st Spark run up F4 being a true block string, that's true, but not something most Shinnok players have switched over to yet. Once they do, chip will be less, and the opponent can still react as described above. I'm not saying Impostor doesn't have a good vortex. He does. It's just not that scary, because the frames on his low and overhead aren't equal, his overhead on block can be punished (which affects player trends), and his MB Hell Spark doesn't have the advantage it used to.

I am sorry, but myself and some very good players here in Russia all agree that you can't block 18 frames on reaction, even if you are looking for it as I said Shinnok can whiff something else, or delay low, which won't give you the time to react. Even @cR WoundCowboy agrees that it isn't fuzziable nor reactable.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

@legion666, you just need more practice, and I mean that as a fact, not to be a dick. Generally speaking, any move that is 16+ frames is reactable. In Street Fighter X Tekken a character named Xiaoyu had an airborne, 16 frame overhead that led to a full combo. When the game first came out, Chris G bodied people with her, myself included. But as time went on, the top players began to consistently block the overhead, which they could only do if they were doing it on reaction. After MK9 and SFxT, I played a lot of UMvC 3. Now there's a fast game. Wolverine's instant air overhead into X-Factor? Impossible to react to. Pure guess. Wolverine's Berserker Slash (where he crosses you up)? Very quick. Half reaction, half read. In comparison to that, for the most part, MKX is a relatively slow game. Will anyone ever block Shinnok's 6 frame low on reaction? No, it can't be done. His overhead, however? Yes. In fact, as time goes on, you'll see more and more people doing so, particularly top players, which will hurt Shinnok, especially since his overhead is, again, punishable.

As for Shinnok whiffing normals before hitting you, such a tactic could trick players, but it doesn't affect the frames of the overhead, so if you're waiting to see that specific move, it really doesn't matter. At the 1:17 mark in the video I posted, you can see Max do exactly what you describe, and I block the overhead on reaction. Of course, there are plenty of examples in the video of me not blocking as I should, so it's important to note that "reactable" doesn't mean that you'll get it 100% of the time, since there are many things warring for your attention in a fighting game, especially when playing in a tournament. Instead, it just means that, with practice, it can be done.

 

[legion666]

@legion666, you just need more practice, and I mean that as a fact, not to be a dick. Generally speaking, any move that is 16+ frames is reactable. In Street Fighter X Tekken a character named Xiaoyu had an airborne, 16 frame overhead that led to a full combo. When the game first came out, Chris G bodied people with her, myself included. But as time went on, the top players began to consistently block the overhead, which they could only do if they were doing it on reaction. After MK9 and SFxT, I played a lot of UMvC 3. Now there's a fast game. Wolverine's instant air overhead into X-Factor? Impossible to react to. Pure guess. Wolverine's Berserker Slash (where he crosses you up)? Very quick. Half reaction, half read. In comparison to that, for the most part, MKX is a relatively slow game. Will anyone ever block Shinnok's 6 frame low on reaction? No, it can't be done. His overhead, however? Yes. In fact, as time goes on, you'll see more and more people doing so, particularly top players, which will hurt Shinnok, especially since his overhead is, again, punishable.

As for Shinnok whiffing normals before hitting you, such a tactic could trick players, but it doesn't affect the frames of the overhead, so if you're waiting to see that specific move, it really doesn't matter. At the 1:17 mark in the video I posted, you can see Max do exactly what you describe, and I block the overhead on reaction. Of course, there are plenty of examples in the video of me not blocking as I should, so it's important to note that "reactable" doesn't mean that you'll get it 100% of the time, since there are many things warring for your attention in a fighting game, especially when playing in a tournament. Instead, it just means that, with practice, it can be done.

Well I guess than that every other good player I know plus Wound need to level up because they are saying you can't react to it only fuzzy guard.
And his low f4 is 7 frames by the way.
Also whiffing something before doing the b3 overhead is a bad example of what I was saying. The good one would be whiffing something and then doing the low f4, because that would make opponent fuzzy, and they are most likely to stand up "reacting" so to say to a slower start up, but getting hit by a delayed faster move.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

From what you describe, it sounds like most of these people have just played NRS games, in which case, yes, I'm saying to level up. However, that isn't a bad thing, nor a personal attack. It's how we all get better.

As for the low, you're of course correct. I was remembering the listing before NRS corrected the frame data.

For the whiff, sure, there are more ideal setups, but again, as long as you're focused on the incoming overhead, its frames are all that really matter.

 

[legion666]

From what you describe, it sounds like most of these people have just played NRS games, in which case, yes, I'm saying to level up. However, that isn't a bad thing, nor a personal attack. It's how we all get better.

As for the low, you're of course correct. I was remembering the listing before NRS corrected the frame data.

For the whiff, sure, there are more ideal setups, but again, as long as you're focused on the incoming overhead, its frames are all that really matter.

I see no point in continuing conversation with a person who automatically labels NRS players as bad. I guess I 'll see you in a lot of mkx majors top 8's robbing those NRS scrubs of their money.

 

[Hellbringer]

i cant react to shinnoks OH online. Offline is a differnet story...

 

[IIWade3II]

Didnt block one OH sword. Not much more to say.

 

[lm Tweakk]

When he mimics kotal can't he do 50+ percent?

 

[Iced_Taz]

You can't do armor when you got hit by mimicry. You must guess correct and that is a main problem

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

@legion666, dude, what are you talking about? I didn't say that NRS players are bad. I said that NRS games are slower than games like UMvC3. If you play it, then play MKX, you'll see what I mean. However, I agree with you about there being no point in continuing the conversation, as you're not actually responding to the things I say and instead treating them as personal attacks. If nothing else though, I'd urge you to watch Mustard's recent run to victory at EGP. He almost never uses the overhead. Why? Because it's punishable and reactable. Same with REO at Yomi. He uses it a bit more than Mustard, but still not as much as you'd expect if it was truly a "great" move.

@STB Hellbringer, online is hot garbage. Of course not, lol.

@IIWade3II, OH Sword is reactable too. N1k0lasss blocked it every time last time I played him.

@Iced_Taz, it's not a full guess though, due to the difference in frames between his low and overhead, as well as the risk-reward.

 

[legion666]

@legion666, dude, what are you talking about? I didn't say that NRS players are bad. I said that NRS games are slower than games like UMvC3. If you play it, then play MKX, you'll see what I mean. However, I agree with you about there being no point in continuing the conversation, as you're not actually responding to the things I say and instead treating them as personal attacks. If nothing else though, I'd urge you to watch Mustard's recent run to victory at EGP. He almost never uses the overhead. Why? Because it's punishable and reactable. Same with REO at Yomi. He uses it a bit more than Mustard, but still not as much as you'd expect if it was truly a "great" move.

@STB Hellbringer, online is hot garbage. Of course not, lol.

@IIWade3II, OH Sword is reactable too. N1k0lasss blocked it every time last time I played him.

@Iced_Taz, it's not a full guess though, due to the difference in frames between his low and overhead, as well as the risk-reward.

I was actually trying to give an answer to every argument you had made. You know about blocking on reaction, fuzzing and baiting a reaction to the overhead with delayed low.
Dude) I don't take anything personal because I know that I suck as a tournament player. But I enjoy playing and breaking the games I like down. That is why I usually discuss things with good tournament players who are better than me. And when I said I will see you in majors I really meant I hope seeing you there, if you are really so good at reacting to mix ups. I watch GBS every week you know))) and I study every high level footage of Shinnok as soon as it appears and of course I have seen Mustard and Reo do their stuff lately)
It is funny how I am arguing with you that the overhead is good, while arguing that he doesn't really have a true vortex with people who scream that Bone Shaper is top 1 in the game in the comments to the Yomi weekly thread which Reo has won with Bone Shaper)))))))you should go there and support my argument that people just aren't really used to playing Shinnok that is why they are getting blown up)

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Lol, okay, cool. Just wanted to be sure. I'm all for leveling up, myself included, so I'm glad we're on the same page.

As for tournaments, I'm going to GGA as much as a I can--last time I got third--so hopefully I can improve on that and go to more majors down the road. I didn't do nearly as well as I wanted at Combobreaker or ECT.

As for the knee-jerk Bone Shaper Shinnok reactions, yeah, that's just the way it goes when a character suddenly has a lot of success. He's definitely good, but not as OP as most are saying. I'm glad both REO and Mustard are attending EVO though, as I believe that will help prove things a lot, one way or the other.

 

[legion666]

Lol, okay, cool. Just wanted to be sure. I'm all for leveling up, myself included, so I'm glad we're on the same page.

As for tournaments, I'm going to GGA as much as a I can--last time I got third--so hopefully I can improve on that and go to more majors down the road. I didn't do nearly as well as I wanted at Combobreaker or ECT.

As for the knee-jerk Bone Shaper Shinnok reactions, yeah, that's just the way it goes when a character suddenly has a lot of success. He's definitely good, but not as OP as most are saying. I'm glad both REO and Mustard are attending EVO though, as I believe that will help prove things a lot, one way or the other.

I wish I could go to all these weeklies and majors, but as I said I am Russian. ESL seems to open some opportunities for players here. But this esl mkx league season was held on PC which I don't have the game for)

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

On PC? That sucks, man. I hope you're able to find an outlet soon, as it really is a fun game offline, and fairly well balanced with the patches.

 

[legion666]

On PC? That sucks, man. I hope you're able to find an outlet soon, as it really is a fun game offline, and fairly well balanced with the patches.

Yeah, online ESL PC tournament for CIS, while EU and NA get it on XBone, wtf?! I know the game is great though, I play with my friend on his ps4 regularly. He has got 5th on the biggest mkx major in Russia using Sonya exclusively by the way. For example CheapEddie, who you have probably seen in Esl finals didn't even make it out of pools in that event.