How to counter Johnny Cage pressure?

[Luija1006]

I am going against a good Johnny Cage in some weeks and I want to know what are the strategies that counter JC frametraps and pressure. My opponent has a lot of knowledge about the Reptile match up, so I want to try and surprise him. This particular JC player likes to crouch block a lot. He fuzzy guards my 3 2 1 slide-acid hand. He blocks all my E Dashes for full combo. Once he is in, I have no idea how to make him gtfo. Also, can you counter a blocked red kick with a full combo or only with Elbow? Help apreciated

 

[leek]

I am going against a good Johnny Cage in some weeks and I want to know what are the strategies that counter JC frametraps and pressure. I ask here because Johnny Cage mains know their character pros and lacks better than anyone. For some reason I have troubles against him with my Reptile. This particular JC likes to crouch block a lot. He fuzzy guards my 3 2 1 slide-acid hand and I eat full combo after my string is blocked. Once he is in, I have no idea how to make him gtfo. Also, can you counter a blocked red kick with a full combo or only with Elbow? Is there a character that fully counters JC? (Except Kabal or Kitana, no hitbox for iAirProjectiles). Help apreciated

Zone him the fuck out. If you find holes in his pressure(after F33, in between etc) you can elbow out. If you have troubles with that, you can ex-slide to get the armor out of it and leave. But just zone him with forceballs and spit because when reptile does that.. it's a bad matchup for cage, around 6-4 if you zone. Try to counter ex-Shadow kick(red) with 321 starter and if that works, use it. If not just use whatever sets up the most range.

You don't need a hitbox for IAF... :/

 

[Playpal]

Reptile is JC's worst match up hands down. Are you really having that hard of a time?

Using elbow dash to escape pressure. It's 6 frames. It's possible for him to bait it out but you've got no other choice other then ex slide. JC's afraid of you. Reptile's standing hit box is unique in that JC will have a harder time trying to ex force ball trap you. Ex shadow kick is punishable with a full combo, same with nut punch.

321 slide/acid hand is a horrible mix up. JC has no reason not to block low when doing 321 because that slide comes out fast but the acid hand is slow as hell. Acid hand's too easy to react to.

You should be zoning. JC has a hard time getting in especially if he has no meter. Give him an obstacle course to pass through. Even if you have to face him up close, he'll be afraid of elbow dash because he has no real answer for it other then trying to read and block.

Why the hell did you make 2 threads?

 

[Luija1006]

Reptile is JC's worst match up hands down. Are you really having that hard of a time?

Using elbow dash to escape pressure. It's 6 frames. It's possible for him to bait it out but you've got no other choice other then ex slide. JC's afraid of you. Reptile's standing hit box is unique in that JC will have a harder time trying to ex force ball trap you. Ex shadow kick is punishable with a full combo, same with nut punch.

321 slide/acid hand is a horrible mix up. JC has no reason not to block low when doing 321 because that slide comes out fast but the acid hand is slow as hell. Acid hand's too easy to react to.

You should be zoning. JC has a hard time getting in especially if he has no meter. Give him an obstacle course to pass through. Even if you have to face him up close, he'll be afraid of elbow dash because he has no real answer for it other then trying to read and block.

Why the hell did you make 2 threads?

Not a REALLY hard time, but I could be doing better with some aid. Thanks a lot for you tips (Y)

 

[Luija1006]

Zone him the fuck out. If you find holes in his pressure(after F33, in between etc) you can elbow out. If you have troubles with that, you can ex-slide to get the armor out of it and leave. But just zone him with forceballs and spit because when reptile does that.. it's a bad matchup for cage, around 6-4 if you zone. Try to counter ex-Shadow kick(red) with 321 starter and if that works, use it. If not just use whatever sets up the most range.

You don't need a hitbox for IAF... :/

You caught me editing my original post with your quote. How I can detect a hole in his pressure, like an exact moment where I can ED and escape?

For me IAF with pad its almost impossible. It's like trying to do Scorpion Instant teleport with pad: You do a Neutral Jump Kick instead.

 

[Playpal]

Wait for him to finish his strings like F32 and F33B3. Those are neutral on block btw. If you don't know what I'm talking about, go into the lab and try out JC yourself. Get a feel for the character so you can get a feel for how to beat him. You should also be blocking low, it nullifies his 11 string and ex force ball traps. Half of what he does is an over head but those can easily be reacted to.

Please only make one thread next time. Even then, we have stickied match up threads so you don't need to make threads.

 

[Salad Petresky]

No.... Reptile isnt jc worst match up. Anyways, this is 5-5 maybe 5.5-4.5 on reptile favor. Reptile cant zone jc that much because cage has the best dash in the game, 3 fast dashes and hes in reptile's face. So you can get far from him if you have a chance, throw a few fbs and spit to build meter. And dont waste meter on ex slide either, this is a bad tip.... theres no way jc can win against reptile long range hands down.

Now, the thing about jc frame trap is that he can not frame trap reptile with ex fire ball. It would wiff and you can do a full combo on him, so in a way JC loses one of his most ridiculous frame trap. You just need to know jc strings when fighting him, most popular are 11, 21,21f2, f3, f33, f33b3,f32 down 1, f32. Learn these, try to read. Poke, jump out. Remeber when jc does 21f2, or f33b3 the pressure is surely over.

Putting an ex slow ball on the screen, force him to block and pressure. Even if he tries you combo you, all his combos are on the ground so the fb just hit him then its a full combo.

You said he likes to turtle or couch block? Dude, you have your down 4 acid hand mix up, 32,321,321 acid hand. 32 and 321 has 0 frame. Ive seen some reptile uses 32 invi, but im against this because it is -2 with invin. Seriously down 4 hand IS one of the best close range move in the game. The point is, you cant zone out jc completely; but you can handle him close range, so let him come to you and build meter as much as you can. Hell, at full screen you can put sfb, dash jump punch 321 mix up. This slow ball full screen can lock down JC and forces him to block, so do it sometimes as a mind fuck. Ex fb works the same, jc doesnt have a teleport abuse that shit

 

[Luija1006]

No.... Reptile isnt jc worst match up. Anyways, this is 5-5 maybe 5.5-4.5 on reptile favor. Reptile cant zone jc that much because cage has the best dash in the game, 3 fast dashes and hes in reptile's face. So you can get far from him if you have a chance, throw a few fbs and spit to build meter. And dont waste meter on ex slide either, this is a bad tip.... theres no way jc can win against reptile long range hands down.

Now, the thing about jc frame trap is that he can not frame trap reptile with ex fire ball. It would wiff and you can do a full combo on him, so in a way JC loses one of his most ridiculous frame trap. You just need to know jc strings when fighting him, most popular are 11, 21,21f2, f3, f33, f33b3,f32 down 1, f32. Learn these, try to read. Poke, jump out. Remeber when jc does 21f2, or f33b3 the pressure is surely over.

Putting an ex slow ball on the screen, force him to block and pressure. Even if he tries you combo you, all his combos are on the ground so the fb just hit him then its a full combo.

You said he likes to turtle or couch block? Dude, you have your down 4 acid hand mix up, 32,321,321 acid hand. The point is, you cant zone out jc completely; but you can handle him close range, so let him come to you and build meter as much as you can. Hell, at full screen you can put sfb, dash jump punch 321 mix up. This slow ball full screen can lock down JC and forces him to block, so do it sometimes as a mind fuck. Ex fb works the same, jc doesnt have a teleport abuse that shit

Exactly the type of responses I was looking for. Thanks for you time! Question: If he fuzzy guards the 321 acid hand, and he wants to start pressure, what you do? Jump? Crouch Block? and if he manages to start his pressure, how you make him gtfo?

 

[Luija1006]

Yeah he likes to crouch block at jump distance to block punish my elbow dash. Also a very important question I was missing: Once cage traps you in the corner with a nutpunch, what you do to stop the pressure and escape?

 

[Salad Petresky]

Exactly the type of responses I was looking for. Thanks for you time! Question: If he fuzzy guards the 321 acid hand, and he wants to start pressure, what you do? Jump? Crouch Block? and if he manages to start his pressure, how you make him gtfo?

Hahaha this is an easy response my friend, the thing is let him fuzzy guard. The thing about reptile is that when you do your acid hand, the pressure is over. But the thing is if he is commit to fuzzy guard your acid hand, do this 321,32, 321, acid hand (this is just an example).

Now lets dig deep about this strings here, when he is guessing you are gonna do acid hand, he is committing to block until acid hand comes right? So 321, "still block", 321 "wtf this is a loop so ill jump out at 1", 32 "1 doesnt come out", 321 acid hand. BOOM, MIND FUCK. Now, this is just one of the mix up; so 321 acid hand is still a good mix up if you think that he thinks that you are gonna loop with 321. Now this tip isnt just for jc, but when vs every character.

You can even do jump in punch, 32, 321 acid hand.

When you are in corner, this is a pretty much a "fuck"situation lol. Nut punch is a reset, it means you are FORCED to block. You need to take risk either getting launch and lose 39% with a reset, or ex dash out and put him in the corner. Best thing to do is break lol. Hopefully you have enough meter from zoning. THTB found out that ex dash is +5.

When Jc starts his pressure, this is the same as the reptile's loop i was talking about. You need to read, dash or poke, jump out. Pay attention to pattern, does he always do 21, 21f2? or does he always do 21f2 right away?

If he likes to couch block and bait ur dash lol, do not dash. Just do down 4 acid hand. This is how you do it, you do the motion of acid hand while pressing 4. So your command should be down 4, back , 2. This move has a pretty damn far reach, none of cage's move is that long or can punish that.

 

[leek]

Exactly the type of responses I was looking for. Thanks for you time! Question: If he fuzzy guards the 321 acid hand, and he wants to start pressure, what you do? Jump? Crouch Block? and if he manages to start his pressure, how you make him gtfo?

elbow out.

after anything lol.

 

[Playpal]

No.... Reptile isnt jc worst match up. Anyways, this is 5-5 maybe 5.5-4.5 on reptile favor. Reptile cant zone jc that much because cage has the best dash in the game, 3 fast dashes and hes in reptile's face. So you can get far from him if you have a chance, throw a few fbs and spit to build meter. And dont waste meter on ex slide either, this is a bad tip.... theres no way jc can win against reptile long range hands down.

First off, JC does not have the best dash in the game. CSZ and sektor do. While JC's dash is good, that doesn't matter because you should be zoning him; he should never be able to do three full dashes. He should be dash blocking and respecting reptile's zoning game to the point where you can catch him off guard with some block strings. We could argue that Reptile has better mobility because of that elbow dash.

The fact that reptile has a unique hitbox that takes away JC's ability to conventionally ex force ball trap him is huge. None of JC's strings give him advantage. Once he's done a string he risks giving up pressure. JC has to respect that elbow dash. Once you've interrupted his pressure with elbow dash, then he starts to block after strings. This allows you to start up pressure of your own. Remember, ex elbow dash is +5 on block. Even if elbow dash is getting snuffed out, ex slide is a guaranteed way to interrupt pressure so I don't know how you can say it's useless.

This match up is at least 6-4 in reptile's favor, I don't know how you think it could be even especially since JC got nerfed and reptile got buffed.

 

[Salad Petresky]

First off, JC does not have the best dash in the game. CSZ and sektor do. While JC's dash is good, that doesn't matter because you should be zoning him; he should never be able to do three full dashes. He should be dash blocking and respecting reptile's zoning game to the point where you can catch him off guard with some block strings. We could argue that Reptile has better mobility because of that elbow dash.

The fact that reptile has a unique hitbox that takes away JC's ability to conventionally ex force ball trap him is huge. None of JC's strings give him advantage. Once he's done a string he risks giving up pressure. JC has to respect that elbow dash. Once you've interrupted his pressure with elbow dash, then he starts to block after strings. This allows you to start up pressure of your own. Remember, ex elbow dash is +5 on block. Even if elbow dash is getting snuffed out, ex slide is a guaranteed way to interrupt pressure so I don't know how you can say it's useless.

This match up is at least 6-4 in reptile's favor, I don't know how you think it could be even especially since JC got nerfed and reptile got buffed.

Lol Reptile got buff with what? Ex slide, wow that helps against JC a lot. And JC has one of the best dash block in the game, and he is nerfed with what? f32 nut punch ? LOL. Those arent big changes, you know what was nerf? REPTILE's damage.

No, but I used to main cage and trust me, reptile isnt close to a bad match up. Im not gonna argue about how reptile has an advantage cause this I think is true. But the advantage that is beatable (as in not a lot and pretty close to 5-5).

 

[Playpal]

Lol Reptile got buff with what? Ex slide, wow that helps against JC a lot. And JC has one of the best dash block in the game, and he is nerfed with what? f32 nut punch ? LOL. Those arent big changes, you know what was nerf? REPTILE's damage.

No, but I used to main cage and trust me, reptile isnt close to a bad match up. Im not gonna argue about how reptile has an advantage cause this I think is true. But the advantage that is beatable (as in not a lot and pretty close to 5-5).

Don't under rate the effect of armor moves against JC's rush down. Like I said, if elbow dash isn't doing the job then ex slide will. F32 nut punch is a big change, because as useful as that string still is it's only +7 on hit and more of a damage nerf than what reptile got. I don't even recall reptile getting a damage nerf, I thought that was just a rumour. Reptile is the hardest character for JC to pressure than anyone else in the game because he can't get advantage on block and the pressure can easily be reversed. So what if JC lands F32 or F33B3? Reptile's got that ex slide that can get him out of any frame trap that's not a nut punch. Not to mention JC has to respect the zoning. Anyone that can zone half decently is going to give JC a hard time, especially since ex shadow kick likes to lose armor.

 

[leek]

Lol Reptile got buff with what? Ex slide, wow that helps against JC a lot. And JC has one of the best dash block in the game, and he is nerfed with what? f32 nut punch ? LOL. Those arent big changes, you know what was nerf? REPTILE's damage.

No, but I used to main cage and trust me, reptile isnt close to a bad match up. Im not gonna argue about how reptile has an advantage cause this I think is true. But the advantage that is beatable (as in not a lot and pretty close to 5-5).

armor is huge against Cage. If you have armor = you can get out of pressure.

F32 nut punch is big because you need a 6frame D1 to get out if he decides to frame trap with F32 - D1 F32 - D1.. so on and so on. If you decide to D1 out, and you mistime it, cage has two options. If he D1's and you mistime it, his D1 will hit, and he can F32 again, starting the trap over. If Cage nutpunches after the F32, he gets you into block animation and is free to start whatever he likes, be it F33~forceball into whatever, throw, normal pressure into pokes, WHATEVER. Another reason F32 was good, was because it covers distance. You can check someone at jump/sweep distance and you're at neutral frames. Problem with that, is that there's no reason to be scared of it anymore because you cannot nutpunch afterwards..meaning you can take it and just try to poke out everytime.

point being F32 was a big part of the game for him.

 

[Salad Petresky]

We can always argue about how is this equal match up for reptile or a bad match up for JC. But if there are people who say that JC vs reptile isnt really a bad match up, then there must be some truth in that

personally I do not care, you JC players need to figure out how to counter that. There is the reason why they make JC so cheap at close range. Im here to help Luija1006 with the match up, im not here to argue which one has adv. Currently no one is playing JC at his highest lv since JOP dropped out (I know brady is picking up JC but hes only using him for KL matchup), so arguing about match up is useless cause I have nothing to compare with. But I do know that JOP beat chris g at evo but that was a long time ago

 

[Luija1006]

Don't under rate the effect of armor moves against JC's rush down. Like I said, if elbow dash isn't doing the job then ex slide will. F32 nut punch is a big change, because as useful as that string still is it's only +7 on hit and more of a damage nerf than what reptile got. I don't even recall reptile getting a damage nerf, I thought that was just a rumour. Reptile is the hardest character for JC to pressure than anyone else in the game because he can't get advantage on block and the pressure can easily be reversed. So what if JC lands F32 or F33B3? Reptile's got that ex slide that can get him out of any frame trap that's not a nut punch. Not to mention JC has to respect the zoning. Anyone that can zone half decently is going to give JC a hard time, especially since ex shadow kick likes to lose armor.

Reptile hits like paper compared to day one. He did 59% with two bars from the 321 ED NJP bnb back then. What a beautiful days that will never come back...

 

[Playpal]

Reptile hits like paper compared to day one. He did 59% with two bars from the 321 ED NJP bnb back in the old days. Ahhh... What a beautiful days that will never come back...

I was referring to 1.03 patch to 1.05. Almost everyone does less damage than they originally did day 1.

 

[Luija1006]

[MENTION=8683]Sanatic[/MENTION] Can cage connect a JNP when reptile is doing D4?

 

[Salad Petresky]

[MENTION=8683]Sanatic[/MENTION] Can cage connect a JNP when reptile is doing D4?

It is almost impossible for ANYONE to do jnp while reptile is doing down 4. Even with jump kick, its hard to hit reptile down 4, its pretty close to mileena's hit box. My opinion is down 4 and charge force ball are the best anti air for reptile. Mugger disagreed with me on down 4 as best anti air, but use what works for you.
Sometimes i do down 4 acid hand as JIP, because acid hand animation makes reptile bigger this is a bit for dangerous but if you do this right you have a crap load of advantage because you can get forceball on the field.

 

[THTB]

This matchup is 5-5. Reptile doesn't keep Cage out...Cage loses some tools as a whole due to Reptile's hitbox. Both of them are trying to get their offense started.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

We can always argue about how is this equal match up for reptile or a bad match up for JC. But if there are people who say that JC vs reptile isnt really a bad match up, then there must be some truth in that

personally I do not care, you JC players need to figure out how to counter that. There is the reason why they make JC so cheap at close range. Im here to help Luija1006 with the match up, im not here to argue which one has adv. Currently no one is playing JC at his highest lv since JOP dropped out (I know brady is picking up JC but hes only using him for KL matchup), so arguing about match up is useless cause I have nothing to compare with. But I do know that JOP beat chris g at evo but that was a long time ago

I think it'd be fair to say that I play Cage at the highest level considering I can win tournaments with him against SOME (emphasis on some) of the worlds best players. That'd make my input worth something.

Reptile punishes B3 with a Dash, so that makes the corner F4 -> B3 setup less useful

Reptile can only be frametrapped using 1 3 Exforceball, but take the 1 3 and you get a full combo punish once you duck the forceballs

Cage cant zone reptile unless its to win a round, and even then if the reptile player makes the read they can dash in and under the ball from full screen

Cages strings dont leave him at advantage and his best string F3 is 9 frames, which is 3 frames slower than the dash, you're probably better off just dashing out whenever you can because once hes outside sweep distance he's got the shittest time coming back in, which therefore means that finishing the F33B3 (or 21F2) string is also usually out of the question and makes him rely more on F32. So that means that the mixups in his blockstrings would be fewer Armoured slide also gets you out.

Cage cant do anything to stop you putting forceballs on screen without using meter, and even then its barely in his advantage to do so since the red kick only does a little more than a forceball and leaves you fullscreen again

D4 Acid hand is good but not to be abused because it can be punished if the Cage player fucks with your spacing. But on hit, as usual it'll send Cage flying away just to walk through the shit storm again

Also, I dont know why but it seems to only happen in the Cage vs Reptile matchup (for all I know) Cage can land a string on reptile and just go through him, meaning that reptile gets a combo punish, seems to happen around the corner at random.

I used to think it was his absolute worst matchup but I'd now say its 6-4 in reptiles favour simply because once the dash or slide hits Cage is in a world of shit. As well as that a Cage player cant play offense like they normally would because they cant Ex forceball and they always have to respect the threat of the dash between any of his strings which alone means he isnt completely playing his own game.

Lets not also forget that reptile has alot more opportunity to build meter in this matchup too.

 

[CapnCook]

Your best bet against cage is to elbow dash out of pressure. A lot of his strings are punishable with it and this really screws up cage players because they're used to being able to execute a lot of offensive moves once they get it. You can also outzone him but not entirely due to his red kick, however you can bait the kick out of people....Sometimes when you dash backwards you can throw your forceballs and you can get it so it looks like you'll throw one when you dash back and you can use this to your advantage and have them red kick and waste their meter/get punished if you dont throw one and block.

I don't think you need to use ex slide to get out of pressure, truthfully that's a bit of a waste of meter since elbow dash is so fast and if you can spend some time learning your opponents strings and reading them you'll know the right time to elbow dash out (or you can always jump out/crossover...this can work well against cage because a lot of his strings just launch you out of pressure anyways if you jump and get hit).

 

[CapnCook]

It is almost impossible for ANYONE to do jnp while reptile is doing down 4. Even with jump kick, its hard to hit reptile down 4, its pretty close to mileena's hit box. My opinion is down 4 and charge force ball are the best anti air for reptile. Mugger disagreed with me on down 4 as best anti air, but use what works for you.
Sometimes i do down 4 acid hand as JIP, because acid hand animation makes reptile bigger this is a bit for dangerous but if you do this right you have a crap load of advantage because you can get forceball on the field.

I agree I think D4 acid hand is his best anti-air (very safe and very effective). Charged forceballs work really well too much but in terms of meterless, you're right. I wonder if the charged forceballs work on crossovers? Probably not but I wonder...

 

[Salad Petresky]

I agree I think D4 acid hand is his best anti-air (very safe and very effective). Charged forceballs work really well too much but in terms of meterless, you're right. I wonder if the charged forceballs work on crossovers? Probably not but I wonder...

Cross over, just spam that down 4. When your opponent drops down, its gonna be the hitbox war and not a lot of characters have reptile's down 4 range. .And acid ball can work against cross up that is perform at the farthest distance, but up close jump over you can not. 1 way to counter cross over is by a good read of NJP.