How is Nightwolf not OP. But cyrax is?

[Under_The_Mayo]

Ok, so cyrax is overpowered because of his bomb resets and his ability to take 60-80% of your life with one meter... This is understand. But is the uproar over Cyrax simply because he does this much damage AND he's popular?

Look at Nightwolf.

Shoulder charge: safe on block, far instant distance hit, EX hits overhead.

Axe: combo launcher, safe on block, range all the way from his toes to far past his head. Can't be low poked OR jumped over. On wake up will hit any opponent on the ground OR in the air. (at least kung's spin is punishable on block!). Can be done to finish any combo string, and again, SAFE ON BLOCK.

Uppercut: fastest in the game

Melee offense: all instantly fast, F3 combo starter stuffs many attacks.

EX Lightening: unblockable on the ground, and sometimes even unavoidable if jumping away from it. Can be connected on the ground from the end of a combo to start a new one.

Anti-Air. Can easily dash in for multiple 1's after a jumping punch, into combo and Shoulder Charge for 20%. Immediately setting up a free EX Lightening for another 30% combo for free. (so 50% from an anti-air punch with one meter)

Meter Building: With his axe being safe on block, NW is able to attack you with no risk of being punished, and crossover punch as much as he wants after his blocked axe. NW will generate tons of meter from blocked offense, giving him free combos from his EX lightening from any knockdown.


You can't jump against NW because of the range of the axe. Getting hit by it gives him 30% damage. If you block it, it's unpunishable. You can duck the shoulder charge, but any good NW will only use it to end combos or as a surprise attack, so waiting for it ducking is useless.

NW can finish any string with an Axe, making him safe on block. He doesn't even have to use any meter for this. This means you will never ever ever have a chance to punish NW on any blocked combo string.

The EX Lightening is unblockable AND gives him a 30% combo. If done while you're waking up, there's only a small probability you will escape it with a roll or a jump. You can basically count on it hitting every time. He can also do it as you fall from an attack or combo. Meaning he can do a 40% ground combo, and then get a guaranteed 32% more just by using one bar! And people say Cyrax is overpowered?

Will anyone really defend NW's large list of abilities?

I think if just the blocked Axe was punishable on block, there would be no problem. Every other character with a special move launcher gets punished on block. Quan's trance, sub freeze, scorp spear, reptile ball, kung spin, kenshi karma... If he had just one vulnerability.. but he just doesn't. Why am I the only person thinking he's ridiculously overpowered? Just because he's not popular? Maybe people don't relate to how I feel because they never fight Nightwolf?

Oh yeah i forgot. He also has a projectile reflect. As if he needed something else. Why not give him a freeze and teleport too?

 

[Reedoms]

I'd take 60% combos with a single net over a few good fundamentals.

 

[rev0lver]

What you've stated makes Nightwolf a good character, not an overpowered one. He's top tier, as many have said.

You can't compare any of that to something like Kung Lao has. Unlike spin, his axes get stuffed much more easily. He doesn't have anything like the low hat string. He can't do any specials in the air. I'm one of the ones who doesn't think Lao is OP even with what he has, and if NW is less than that, I wouldn't complain about him.

Also, about the lightning, I've never seen much of a problem with it. I only get hit with it about 10% of the time on wakeup. Not only is it easily jumped, but it's extremely risky against a char with a wakeup teleport.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

What you've stated makes Nightwolf a good character, not an overpowered one. He's top tier, as many have said.

You can't compare any of that to something like Kung Lao has. Unlike spin, his axes get stuffed much more easily. H

Also, about the lightning, I've never seen much of a problem with it. I only get hit with it about 10% of the time on wakeup. Not only is it easily jumped, but it's extremely risky against a char with a wakeup teleport.

If he could also freeze you and teleport and start combos off of 3 differently instant low attacks, would you still be saying "Yeah, that's what makes him good! Not overpowered!." This is ridiculous. The EX Lightening is not easily jumped if it's timed properly. And oh wow! Thank you! As long as you're Raiden you can teleport away! Great to know! NW's axe getting stuffed is total bullshit. And it's safe on block. Kung gets punished with a full combo. NW gets away free and doesn't even have to spend meter on it. And he gains tons of meter from the blocked strings that lead to his blocked Axe which leaves him safe.

Any good NW can steal every single round as long as he just touches you once, because any attack leads into an unavoidable EX lightning setup. Like I said, 50% off an AntiAir punch is ridiculous.

 

[leek]

Ok, so cyrax is overpowered because of his bomb resets and his ability to take 60-80% of your life with one meter... This is understand. But is the uproar over Cyrax simply because he does this much damage AND he's popular?

Look at Nightwolf.

Shoulder charge: safe on block, far instant distance hit, EX hits overhead.

Duck it. No block, uppercut punish even with shang. Uppercut after the first hit on EX.. it doesn't have armor after the first hit.

Axe: combo launcher, safe on block, range all the way from his toes to far past his head. Can't be low poked OR jumped over. On wake up will hit any opponent on the ground OR in the air. (at least kung's spin is punishable on block!). Can be done to finish any combo string, and again, SAFE ON BLOCK.

Not really safe on block. You end a string with this and you eat a hearty combo from anyone but noob pretty much.

Uppercut: fastest in the game

ohai Cage, Sonya, Sektor, Jax, Stryker, Kano, Quan Chi.

Melee offense: all instantly fast, F3 combo starter stuffs many attacks.

Not really. Only strings that start fast are 1 starters and F+3. It has great priority.

EX Lightening: unblockable on the ground, and sometimes even unavoidable if jumping away from it. Can be connected on the ground from the end of a combo to start a new one.

Meh. Burning meter for something totally unsafe on whiff, offline it's really hard NOT to jump away from it unless you're crouch blocking.

Anti-Air. Can easily dash in for multiple 1's after a jumping punch, into combo and Shoulder Charge for 20%. Immediately setting up a free EX Lightening for another 30% combo for free. (so 50% from an anti-air punch with one meter)

No way would a true nightwolf throw out an EX-Lighting after a shoulder. It is NOT guaranteed like most people seem to think.. only if the opponent stays turtling. Just dash block, honestly

Meter Building: With his axe being safe on block,

GAH

NW is able to attack you with no risk of being punished, and crossover punch as much as he wants after his blocked axe. NW will generate tons of meter from blocked offense, giving him free combos from his EX lightening from any knockdown.

I can't argue with meter, he builds a lot with block strings and the sort, but only if he doesn't use hatchet after it.. punishpunishpunish

You can't jump against NW because of the range of the axe. Getting hit by it gives him 30% damage. If you block it, it's unpunishable.

golly gee you hate that hatchet.. it's not very reliable as anti-air..only at FULL jump distance from what I've seen.

You can duck the shoulder charge, but any good NW will only use it to end combos or as a surprise attack, so waiting for it ducking is useless.

Can't disagree. Very true.

NW can finish any string with an Axe, making him safe on block. He doesn't even have to use any meter for this. This means you will never ever ever have a chance to punish NW on any blocked combo string.

that axe must have like, stolen your childhood stuffed bear :/ I sure as hell know that Kung Lao's low hat stole mine..

The EX Lightening is unblockable AND gives him a 30% combo. If done while you're waking up, there's only a small probability you will escape it with a roll or a jump. You can basically count on it hitting every time. He can also do it as you fall from an attack or combo. Meaning he can do a 40% ground combo, and then get a guaranteed 32% more just by using one bar! And people say Cyrax is overpowered?

Refer to earlier comment on ex lightning.

Will anyone really defend NW's large list of abilities?

I think if just the blocked Axe was punishable on block, there would be no problem. Every other character with a special move launcher gets punished on block. Quan's trance, sub freeze, scorp spear, reptile ball, kung spin, kenshi karma... If he had just one vulnerability.. but he just doesn't. Why am I the only person thinking he's ridiculously overpowered? Just because he's not popular? Maybe people don't relate to how I feel because they never fight Nightwolf?

In closing, he's a great character. You should get some more offline experience against him, once you find that sweet spot and learn his weaknesses it really just becomes a game of whether or not the opposing nightwolf can keep you out with tricks and games. He is, most definitely NOT OP, he's just an underrated upper/top tier character. Imagine if no one played Sub zero at all, and only bits and pieces were known. Then you have one come around and shows you the ropes and makes you eat ice all day long. It'd be hard to think of how he could possibly be a bad character, but only because of lack of experience against said character.

Not trying to insult you in anyway man, I feel your pain. I played against one good nightwolf about 3 months ago and said I HAD to learn him.

It could also be that Nightwolf is just the pure counter to your gameplay style, as Sub Zero to Cage, or Raiden to Noob Saibot and so on. I'm not trying to insult you in any way, don't think that. It's just that no playstyle is perfect in every way, and therefor, has weaknesses. Some characters take advantage of these weaknesses.

 

[Reedoms]

If he could also freeze you and teleport and start combos off of 3 differently instant low attacks, would you still be saying "Yeah, that's what makes him good! Not overpowered!." This is ridiculous. The EX Lightening is not easily jumped if it's timed properly. And oh wow! Thank you! As long as you're Raiden you can teleport away! Great to know! NW's axe getting stuffed is total bullshit. And it's safe on block. Kung gets punished with a full combo. NW gets away free and doesn't even have to spend meter on it. And he gains tons of meter from the blocked strings that lead to his blocked Axe which leaves him safe.

Any good NW can steal every single round as long as he just touches you once, because any attack leads into an unavoidable EX lightning setup. Like I said, 50% off an AntiAir punch is ridiculous.

Noobs teleport is shit and I can wakeup teleport out of EX-Lightning so I don't know what you're going on about.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

yes, i think NW's Axe and EX lightening are the most stupid moves in the game. It's way worse than KL's spin. You can punish KL's spin. You say you can punish the axe? Prove it. I'll gladly take back every single complaint about NW if you can prove that the axe is punishable on block. I'm just asking for one vulnerability.

Please don't do things like say "Just duck and uppercut the shoulder chargres" and then go on to agree with me saying "Any NW will only surprise you with Charges, so ducking them is useless." You're just setting up false criticisms of my complaints and then going on to agree with the problem. I don't care at all that I can duck and punish a retarded online Nightwolf abusing the Charge.

You seem to take issue that I point out anything! Yes, I already know that other character's have fastest uppercuts like NW. My only point was that this is yet ANOTHER thing about NW that is powerful. My argument is that he has so many powerful things, including the uppercut, that he is "Overpowered". Let people have amazing uppercuts. But you know, unpunishable safe-on-block offense and unescapable lightening setups for extra 30% combos is too much.

Again, if you show me that his Axe is punishable, I'll retract every single complaint. He can have as many powerful things as he wants as long as there is some kind of punishment for blocking something he does.

I'd also like you to back up your claim about "only if the opponent stays turtling. Just dash block, honestly" when it comes to the EX Lightening on knockdown. You tell me some method of getting off the ground as he does it that has more than a 10% reliability of escaping it. I don't want to hear about Raiden's teleport or Reptile's dash.

 

[M2Dave]

Axe: combo launcher, safe on block, range all the way from his toes to far past his head. Can't be low poked OR jumped over. On wake up will hit any opponent on the ground OR in the air. (at least kung's spin is punishable on block!). Can be done to finish any combo string, and again, SAFE ON BLOCK.

Kung Lao's spin is 6 frames and has active frames around Kung Lao's entire body. The spin makes Kung Lao almost unjumpable. Any Nightwolf player would choose the spin over the axe in a heartbeat. LOL. I am not sure what your deal is.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Don't care that the spin is "unjumpable". Stop singling out a single characteristic.

NW's axe covers nearly the entire space that KL's spin does, and it's safe on block, and can be used to end any combo string, making every offensive move from NW unpunishable. In combination with other safe on block moves, and virtually unescapble EX lightening setups after combos. That's my deal.

 

[leek]

Jesus man, if I knew you were going to jump up my ass about it, I would've asked for lubricant first..

Shoulder charge comment(I'm too lazy to multiquote like before, shhh): If you can anticipate the charge, punish it. OBVIOUSLY not everytime you can, so that's where surprise charges come into play, but if the opponent makes a habit of something, TAKE ADVANTAGE.

Uppercut story: Sorry, misunderstood and mis..replyed? about the uppercut. I thought you were whining about it, totally cool that it's just another good thing about him.

Axe punish: Gah, I have to edit this in. Wait a little while, I'll post a video link :/

EX-Lightning: tech roll back and jump if you have the time, if not, jump back. Not forwards for shoulder punish. Simple as that, if you can anticipate it.

 

[leek]

Don't care that the spin is "unjumpable". Stop singling out a single characteristic.

NW's axe covers nearly the entire space that KL's spin does, and it's safe on block, and can be used to end any combo string, making every offensive move from NW unpunishable. In combination with other safe on block moves, and virtually unescapble EX lightening setups after combos. That's my deal.

d,f+1 - 19(hatchet)

d,b+3 - 31(EX-Lightning)

Post from the nightwolf frame data. KL Spin- 6 frames. Hatchet? 19 bro. EX-Lightning? 31( HALF A SECOND! )

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

If your Lightening escape is more reliable than "occasionally I get away from it" and there's a way to punish the axe, then I'll cool down. I'm not pissed at you, I'm pissed about how many safe and guaranteed options this character has. I'm not saying I shouldn't have to make good reads and be smart. I get that. But when he can punish so many attacks of other characters, but they can't punish him because of his frame recovery and he also gets free combos off EX lightening setups on knockdown, thats where my issues are.

And this has NOTHING to do with the frame speed of the moves. It has to do with them being safe on block, able to make any combo string unpunishable, combined with moves that you can't get away from on wakeup that force you to eat 30% more damage.

 

[leek]

Who do you main brother?

 

[M2Dave]

Don't care that the spin is "unjumpable". Stop singling out a single characteristic.

It is an important characteristic to note in a jump happy game where jumping punches are very powerful.

NW's axe covers nearly the entire space that KL's spin does, and it's safe on block, and can be used to end any combo string, making every offensive move from NW unpunishable. That's my deal.

The axe does not cover the same space as the spin. The axe can be crossed up. The axe is safe on block but leaves Nightwolf at a disadvantage unless spaced perfectly. The axe is a slow 21 frames. You can bait and whiff punish it without a problem.

Are you not a Quan Chi player? If so, understand that Nightwolf is a lot easier to fight with other characters.

 

[leek]

And this has NOTHING to do with the frame speed of the moves. It has to do with them being safe on block, able to make any combo string unpunishable,

Er. That's kind of a weird thing to say. If you can anticipate the hatchet inside of a combo D+1 that bitch..

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I didn't say it covered the same space. But it's nearly as unjumpable as Kl's spin. I didn't say exactly. I know I can bait and punish an axe. That's essentially the only way to get any offense going on NW is to hope you guess right when trying to bait the axe. What I'm saying is that NW can basically just mindless hack at you with offense and get away with it because of his axe being safe. And doing so builds him so much meter he gets free combos from his EX lightening frequently. Beating NW, which I do at times, takes a huge combo of brains and luck. Everything he does is safe so he can beat you with such mindless offense it's retarded.

Er. That's kind of a weird thing to say. If you can anticipate the hatchet inside of a combo D+1 that bitch..

You mean before the axe comes out in a string? Or after the axe is blocked? Cause I'm sure the axe pushes you away too far to d1 afterwards.

Again. I'm not trying to sound angry at anyone responding. I just have serious concerns about this.

 

[leek]

Safe is Cage. You ever played against a good Cage?

THAT is safe on block. ADV on almost every string in his list, free cross overs and throws galore.

Nightwolf ain't that safe. His strings are really only fast as 122 hatchet or F+31 hatchet. The rest has so much startup, you'll hit out of it and don't have to worry about blockstun.

EDIT: Before it comes out in the stream. Now I understand there's a difference in startup because of the combo buffer, but it shouldn't be less than 10, granting a D+1.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Safe is Cage. You ever played against a good Cage?

THAT is safe on block. ADV on almost every string in his list, free cross overs and throws galore.

Nightwolf ain't that safe. His strings are really only fast as 122 hatchet or F+31 hatchet. The rest has so much startup, you'll hit out of it and don't have to worry about blockstun.

So ONLY his main offensive strings into Axe are safe? What a relief... And again, stop singling out single characteristics. I don't care that NW's strings are safe on block because..yeah, Cage is safe on block too. But does cage also have a huge range anti-air safe launcher like the axe, and an unblockable anywhere-on-the-screen lightening attack giving him another combo? No, he doesnt. Oh and he can't reflect projectiles either.

Not once have a said that a move of NW's is overpowered. It's the combination of his abilities that is overpowered.

EDIT: Before it comes out in the stream. Now I understand there's a difference in startup because of the combo buffer, but it shouldn't be less than 10, granting a D+1.

See, this is the conversation I'm trying to provoke. If that's true, I'll test it out. But I don't think blocking an attack into axe gives you enough time to recover from blocking stance into a D1.

 

[rev0lver]

Why does the axe need to be unsafe when (unlike Lao's spin) it's usually stuffed? It's a rarity for the axe swing to be used by itself other than for AA. I don't know why you're still complaining about ex lightning. I'm talking about wakeup teleports, this doesn't just mean Raiden. Noob, Rain, Smoke, and Sektor (off the top of my head) make ex lightning a non issue. Not just that, but Johnny Cage's ex shadow kick can even do the trick. Even if the lightning hits them, they have wakeup invincibility. You say it's strange that nobody else thinks he's OP, while we're all thinking it's strange that lightning keeps giving you trouble.

I play Kitana, so my only wakeup choice from fullscreen would be ex squareboost, which I wouldn't bother doing on him as it wouldn't give me a hit. So you know what I do? I jump. Only in the very small percentage of time that I wait too late to jump do I get hit. Hell, half the time the Nightwolf will mistime his lightning and it won't even hit you standing.

 

[SektorCyrax]

nightwolf doesnt get a free ex lightning after a shoulder. depends on the character and their wake up options. This can be noted from LordOfTheFly's nightwolf guide, undoubtedly the best nightwolf player on TYM/MKU. Its more of a mind game then a 'free ex lightning'

 

[M2Dave]

I didn't say it covered the same space. But it's nearly as unjumpable as Kl's spin. I didn't say exactly. I know I can bait and punish an axe. That's essentially the only way to get any offense going on NW is to hope you guess right when trying to bait the axe. What I'm saying is that NW can basically just mindless hack at you with offense and get away with it because of his axe being safe. And doing so builds him so much meter he gets free combos from his EX lightening frequently. Beating NW, which I do at times, takes a huge combo of brains and luck. Everything he does is safe so he can beat you with such mindless offense it's retarded.

Nightwolf cannot AA on reaction with the axe because the move has at least 20 frames of start up. How does that make Nightwolf "nearly" as unjumpable as Kung Lao? Nightwolf's best AA is his 7 frame d+2.

What "mindless offense"? Are you being serious? Characters like Kung Lao, Kabal, and Reptile build meter almost twice as fast as Nightwolf. They have better strings and an outside game.

 

[leek]

Ugh, I'm only singling them out because you're bring them up man..

Cage has anti air B+3, granting a combo and nut punch reset allowing for continual pressure. Doesn't need unblockable, he won't be anywhere besides in your face, so it's kind of pointless to knock the opponent down and allow a wakeup when you can just nut punch. Also doesn't need a reflect.. dat ex shadow kick :surfer:

EDIT: Thank you guys for backing me up.. I almost died back thereant:

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

So you play a NW that mistimes his lightenings, and mistimes his Axes so they get stuffed. That's an argument how?

 

[leek]

So you play a NW that mistimes his lightenings, and mistimes his Axes so they get stuffed. That's an argument how?

He's saying it's EASY to mistime them.

Lightning is so easy to mistime, you have to be spot on and in the zone to get it 100% of the time, hell, even 75% I'd say.

Argument being that it's very easy to fuck up, and therefor not being OP.

you fuck up=mistake=eat a combo=disadvantage

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I just can't agree. This has nothing to do with my skill. If it was, I'd admit it. I lose to other characters. Sometimes I lose to them a lot. I'm not trying to defend my pride here. I know I'm not a top player.

But any time a combo is ended, NW hits me with an EX lightening as I roll or jump or dash on wake up. How is that my fault? How is that not showing that a NW player can time an EX lightening perfect to give him 30% more damage from a 40% combo. And isn't that the same problem people have with cyrax? Yet Cyrax doesnt have save strings/launchers like this.

Unless I have Raiden's teleport or Reptile's Dash or whatever, I have to sit there and take it? That's bullshit. Then he can just do it all over again if he has enough bar. Doing 100% from 2 bars. I know I can pick some characters that have some special that can get away from it. But unless I pick one of them, it's just going to be EX lightening loops until I'm dead? I can accept that if its the truth. But I don't want that to be true that only a handfull of characters can escape NW's ex lightening after knockdown.

And I wouldn't even care so much about "inescapable" EX setups, if the axe wasn't also unpunishable. As I said before, I'm not complaining about individual moves. It's the combination of all these moves and their power and safety.