Uhm.... She is the best character in the game, (thats my point.. and JT's from what i can see)..i thought that was what you have been whining about?
Yeah that was his point, but he also thinks Batgirl isn't high risk so no wonder he thinks she's the best in the game. That's what I was explaining to him, that she
is high risk. High risk, high reward. But not the best in the game.
Frankly a lot of what you said doesn't really make sense to me. You're arguing with JTB because he said there is a difference between tournament matches and a casual... your argument is that it's not to do with the character, it's the player. So thats where i made the point that nerves come into tournaments and expecting people to get things right 100% of the times it's stupid... thats not putting words in your mouth.... uhm... thats just deduction mate. The point being that in a stressful environment, getting every reaction right is very difficult. Thats the only point there is to make... there is nothing to argue with here? Knowing how to react to BG is one thing but doing it consistently can be pretty tough and tournament settings make it tougher.
No no no, you're misunderstanding. I'm saying that the character itself doesn't change between tournament sets and casuals but the mindset of the players do. Obviously when playing the matchup anywhere winning comes down to a mix of fundamentals and character knowledge. I've never said anyone is going to do everything right 100%, stop bringing that up or assuming that's what I'm saying. If I'm not saying people need to do everything 100% right all the time then there's no need for you to assume that I'm saying that.
My point about extended sets isn't that you might lose eventually its more suggesting that over time a good BG player will win the majority of games against the majority of the cast because she has the tools to so.- that makes her the best character in the game.
You would think that Batgirl would dominate with the tools that she has, but nope. She does well of course because she does have great tools, that's why she's top 5, but her tools aren't dominating enough to make her the best in the game or have the best matchup chart. Hell she can't even beat more than one character 7-3. She has a lot of even matchups and a lot of 6-4s because it's not as easy as read your opponent correctly all the time and make them guess wrong in the vortex the whole match or whatever people think.
If batgirl isn't as good as what i and others have said, then it stands to reason that eventually she would be beaten/figured out due to the 'weaknesses' that you keep talking about. But, that of course hasn't happened... so you're point is sort of null. How many times did jupiter nearly seal the deal and lose to BG? If MMH or zod are better characters why haven't they won as many tournies as BG?
Let me make it clear that I don't think Batgirl is bad, I know she has very powerful tools but these tools also have a risk to them that I feel is being ignored. My point isn't null, if anything it's more valid with each person that ignores all the tech that's right there in front of them and it's insane that people still aren't doing these little things. It's like if people still didn't know Grundy's tick throws, how astonished would you be that people didn't know that? It's something that Grundys do all the time but people still wouldn't do anything about them. That's my point with BG, not that the players are bad or Batgirl is bad. PL made a thread covering backdashing after a blocked jump 2 and REO made a thread about the cartwheel option select, both threads were front paged. Tell me, have you ever seen anyone use this cartwheel option select before? Or does Sonicfox get away with doing cartwheel after cartwheel all the time? Jupiter's also beaten Sonicfox and won tournaments before, and any set they have could go either way because it's a 5-5. MMH and Zod don't win as many tournaments because Jupiter and Pig don't come out to as many tournaments as Fox. How will they win if they don't go? Pig beat Fox at EVO and has admitted plenty of times that the reason he lost in GF was because he lost focus.
You then move on to say that yes, no one has learnt that matchup right... (except you of course)... because they haven't got the MU expereince? are you for real? Seems like a pretty stupid statement to me... you don't think that any of these players hasn't done their homework on BG weaknesses...reading the very threads your talking about...did it matter? no... are you sort of saying you would do better? i don't get your point. because either way, the facts speak for themselves. Thats why you're not really going to win the argument, it's all theory fighting, in real life, there is a reason why fighting BG with pretty much any character is hard as nails.
But hey what do i know, you seem pretty sure of yourself - maybe it's time for you to go to EVO and show sonic what you've got and prove everyone wrong.
Good luck.
No, I didn't say noone had learned the matchup right. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said that people aren't doing everything that they can do. Obviously they're playing right at the basic level but there are certain things that can be done that aren't being done that would help which people are ignoring for no good reason. If you think that me claiming that people aren't doing certain things is bogus then go tell that to Forever King, he made the point not that long ago that people might not be playing the matchup properly as well. You think Forever King is stupid too? Do you think that someone that plays against Fox in tournament doesn't know what he's talking about either? As I said, if you played the character and knew every weakness/punishable move/etc that she has then you'd see my point. But you don't, you think BG has no weaknesses and the most dominant tools and is the best character in the game.
I am by no means saying I would do better, what I'm saying is that although the top players are playing the matchup right at the basic level they're just missing out on some of the little things that could help them do better in the matchup. Things that other top players wouldn't have bothered exploring if they weren't of any use.
Oh please. Of course I'm not saying I'd beat Sonic, he plays in tournaments all the time and can get that experience. That's a stupid assumption to make.
Over any extended set you're bound to lose to any character, what's your point? She has tools, but only one or two of those multitude of tools aren't punishable or even plus. If they were all safe and/or all plus then I'd see your point but she has to take huge risks to get in in the first place. Either she gets a full combo into vortex or she gets full combo punished.