General/Other - Gunslinger Gunslinger and Holster Stance

[Fattius]

Now I am not the best player here far from it, but I was playing around with gunslinger Erron Black because I really like his holster stance. I was wondering what people would think about these two changes in holster stance. His 2 in it should be able to combo with it and when he dose his back dash/dodge with 4 it should actually dodge. What do other players think about those would they be too much to ask for?

 

[Fattius]

Is it too much to ask for?

 

[Pakman]

Sos 2 gives him a hard knock down for raw 10% damage. It doesn't really need a buff IMO, although I see where you are coming from.

Sos 4 fires 2 mid shots and backdashes - giving it invincibility frames on top would be too much given his already excellent rush down. You have to draw the line somewhere, and let's face it, Erron line is one notch just below scumbag territory!

Everyone knows by now gunslinger is the nichest out of all Erron variations, but that in and of itself doesnt make it weak

Imo the main reason why it feels so weak is because Erron already has really good universal rushdown tools at his disposal that you hardly ever want to zone (why zone when from the getgo I can cancel any string into ex sand grenade and combo for 30% on hit and wall carry !?), and on top of that the current meta is so heavily rushdown orientated that you hardly ever need to (apart from the odd sand grenade here or there) that you never really get to take full advantage of his Gunslinger specific tool set.

So regardless of variation, what you end up doing with Erron is rushdown anyway (and if so, is it any wonder why his more rush down orientated variations are his most popular?)

I would love Gunslinger to get 'something' (like idk more advantage on hit for ex money shot so i can run cancel combo after it) but even I can't justify giving him much else than what he already has.

Erron's just a really strong character right now, even with his recent changes.

 

[DarthVado]

I disagree, I think Gunslinger could use the Stand off stance 4 could use the dodge ability on projectiles, not normals tho. Gunslinger def has most of those great tools to be an effective character, but it's not enough to warrant playing it over his more rushdown focused variations. If they added 4 dodging, it'd make him a much better zoner, but now too good by any means. Due to the animation, dodging projectiles would be a lot more situational than your average projectile counter, remember, he backs up while he does it, so backing up straight back into the projectile you just dodged it def a possibility if you don't time it perfectly. Also his reward for hitting it is at max a knockdown, which is good, but if he's far away when he lands it, he's not getting much else off it but some oki for more zoning and for getting in, which is a lot less than most of the cast gets. The start up of it would force up close projectile dodges to be reads for the most part. This is actually the only buff I think Gunslinger should get too, other than that, I think he's fine. but I feel he needs better zoning to make picking him more justifiable over his others.

 

[The Farmer]

Overhead for coin toss, and juggle state for ex-coin toss. Maybe a cancel for the sos or faster frames using sos1. That's all

 

[DarthVado]

Overhead for coin toss, and juggle state for ex-coin toss. Maybe a cancel for the sos or faster frames using sos1. That's all

I don't really see what overhead coin toss would change, it's very reactable and not to be used up close, and there's no mix up as a long range tool since he has no fast low projectile. Sand Grenade could be used for some sort of unblockable if he had less recovery frames, but I don't think that's the right answer. EX Coin Toss I think should be plus, and I think his SOS 1 cancel is pretty well suited for baiting opponents into getting blocked, or canceling into overhead, command grab, or more pressure.

 

[wsj515]

Overhead for coin toss, and juggle state for ex-coin toss. Maybe a cancel for the sos or faster frames using sos1. That's all

I really really wish sos1 was run cancelable like MM's gun cancels, it would make the variation so much more interesting.

 

[Pakman]

The issue with giving sos 4 projectile invincibility is now the sub zero MU becomes 10-0 in our favour, because now he will never even trade (in fact, Erron will win every projectile war indefinitely). NRS will never give Erron that, even if I like the potential buff.

Money shot being overhead is more of a visual thing, but w/e I can live without it.

 

[Brutal Chimney]

i feel like the best thing for him would be to remove the stance requirement, on paper its made to be a quick draw guessing game but in reality there is no guessing. you can tell from how close he is what he's going to do immediately and defend against it. from there give him meter burn versions of the new attacks.

before that though someone from NRS is going to have acknowledge that their stance idea didn't work right and i dont see that happening.

 

[wsj515]

i feel like the best thing for him would be to remove the stance requirement, on paper its made to be a quick draw guessing game but in reality there is no guessing. you can tell from how close he is what he's going to do immediately and defend against it. from there give him meter burn versions of the new attacks.

before that though someone from NRS is going to have acknowledge that their stance idea didn't work right and i dont see that happening.

Seriously, all the stance does is cram 3 special moves into one, as well as simultaneously hurting the subsequent move initiated from the stance. sos2 would be a semi decent AA option if you didn't have to go into the stance first and were just able to do the move raw with df2 or something.

 

[DarthVado]

2 would def be a good thing to have outside of SOS, but I think 4 and 3 would be too good. Both are armor breaking and result in hard knock downs, so I think they would be a little too good to have outside the stance. Besides the stance itself is a mind game since he can always cancel it into other moves using 1. It's kinda like martial arts master who pretends to have an opening in order to trick your opponent into doing something, it's all about getting your opponent to fear it. Also, 4 being in stance only I think is another reason why it would be okay for it too dodge projectiles, since it takes extra time to get going.

 

[wsj515]

2 would def be a good thing to have outside of SOS, but I think 4 and 3 would be too good. Both are armor breaking and result in hard knock downs, so I think they would be a little too good to have outside the stance. Besides the stance itself is a mind game since he can always cancel it into other moves using 1. It's kinda like martial arts master who pretends to have an opening in order to trick your opponent into doing something, it's all about getting your opponent to fear it. Also, 4 being in stance only I think is another reason why it would be okay for it too dodge projectiles, since it takes extra time to get going.

I can't agree that 3 and 4 would be too good outside of sos. 4 only breaks armor against something like a fullscreen liu kang kick, and 3 is punishable with armor, and its easy enough to read an sos3 (or "3" if they hypothetically made that change) considering you need to be at a required distance, and have decent frame advantage. Sos's "mindgames" are also incredibly distance dependent, which lends to it being, again, pretty easy to read, and is also very high risk for low reward. Canceling into sos1 is just asking to eat a full combo punish within neutral range.

 

[Brutal Chimney]

this is how i would personally do it. keep in mind i dont worry about balance as im perfectly fine with other characters getting buffs to match

his stand off stance would have only two options one for low( current 3) and one for overhead(new move). both would knock the opponent away

his his retreating shot and AA shot would become their own moves

his coin toss would become an overhead, kind of a useless move still but the fact that its not bugs the crap out of me.

and he would become a zoaner

 

[Zephyrus]

honestly I'd make his sos 2 do 5% damage and lose the hard knockdown to gain instead, the ability to juggle off of it

 

[KNX]

SOS2 should just launch up-close. It would at the very least, give him an option for meterless damage as that's what is mainly lacking in this variation. Either this or alter the scaling on his SOS specials so he can get more damage off them. Off a successful mixup meterless he gets around 17% and no setups... Compare that to his other two variations and there's the reason why Gunslinger is so far behind.

Money Shot would still suck even if it were overhead. It's very gimmicky, they should've just gave him a default projectile with his Revolvers.

I'd say Gunslinger is a small alteration away from being decent.

 

[DarthVado]

I can't agree that 3 and 4 would be too good outside of sos. 4 only breaks armor against something like a fullscreen liu kang kick, and 3 is punishable with armor, and its easy enough to read an sos3 (or "3" if they hypothetically made that change) considering you need to be at a required distance, and have decent frame advantage. Sos's "mindgames" are also incredibly distance dependent, which lends to it being, again, pretty easy to read, and is also very high risk for low reward. Canceling into sos1 is just asking to eat a full combo punish within neutral range.

You shouldn't be SOSing in a guy's face, you should do it after a knock down, specifically a SOS 4 knock down, or during zoning. At the distance 4 gives you, you can land an overhead, command grab, 2, block a wake up, armor break with 3 and have it as a low mix up. I should also mention the huge chip and meter gain SOS 3 gives. Like after a corner combo, I can set up a 20% chip scenario with it for 1 bar, closer to 10% for no bar. This is with a caltrops set up BTW

 

[DarthVado]

SOS2 should just launch up-close. It would at the very least, give him an option for meterless damage as that's what is mainly lacking in this variation. Either this or alter the scaling on his SOS specials so he can get more damage off them. Off a successful mixup meterless he gets around 17% and no setups... Compare that to his other two variations and there's the reason why Gunslinger is so far behind.

Money Shot would still suck even if it were overhead. It's very gimmicky, they should've just gave him a default projectile with his Revolvers.

I'd say Gunslinger is a small alteration away from being decent.

He mainly only gets bad damage of his overhead midscreen, most of his other starters will net him over 20% for no meter. Low starter gives him like 28% for no meter. His overhead will give him 17%, but it also give him good advantage and distance to start zoning. Also his coin shot isn't really bad, you just have to know how to apply it along with all his other zoning tools. one interesting thing about it is that a fullscreen coin shot is nearly 0 on block, so he can often follow up with something else.

 

[wsj515]

You shouldn't be SOSing in a guy's face, you should do it after a knock down, specifically a SOS 4 knock down, or during zoning. At the distance 4 gives you, you can land an overhead, command grab, 2, block a wake up, armor break with 3 and have it as a low mix up. I should also mention the huge chip and meter gain SOS 3 gives. Like after a corner combo, I can set up a 20% chip scenario with it for 1 bar, closer to 10% for no bar. This is with a caltrops set up BTW

Like I said, that's all very high risk for low reward. So many of those options are huge guesses that give the opponent more than 1 way to get out of the set up and even bet them a full combo. I can go through each of the opponent's options if you would like.

 

[DarthVado]

I know what their options are, but the low reward part depends on what you go for. For example, the 3 low shots are hugely unsafe and on hit will only do 10% plus a knockdown, but it's there to make your opponent fear getting stuck in another mix up and wasting a bar. Also 3 low shots build a lot of meter on block, not worth them getting blocked most of the time, but could be useful in certain situations. But if you cancel into overhead, then in the corner we are looking at upwards of 30% plus oki and caltrops set up. You can also block an attempt to beat your SoS by canceling it, and more safely being able to get a full combo punish, and that would net you close to 30% anywhere, not just the corner. They block, you can command grab, which will take them out of pressure, but from what I've tested EX sand trap is still plus on hit, so you can always use that to get oki in the corner, extra damage, and to get the opponent off you and resume zoning midscreen. Also, if you utilize the 20% chip set up after, you can make opponent think you are going to go for it, then hit them with something else. If they try to jump, you SoS 2 them for a AA and a hard knock down. 4 is great for zoning, can break armor, is his safest option from SoS, and on hit has very good advantage. A fullscreen 4 hit in my lab time has always allowed me a free sand grenade throw after, forcing them to either delay wake up or block, wake up attacks can be blocked and will take the 9% from the grenade to boot. Yeah, compared to the rest of the cast, Gunslinger has to take a lot of risks, and yeah many of them don't net him full combos, but I still think the mind game is there to make SoS good if you utilize all of it's assets, and that's ultimately why I love this character, because that amount of thought has to go into him to make him work. But I was a crazy MK9 Jade player to the end, so take my word with a grain of salt lol.

 

[The Farmer]

I don't really see what overhead coin toss would change, it's very reactable and not to be used up close, and there's no mix up as a long range tool since he has no fast low projectile. Sand Grenade could be used for some sort of unblockable if he had less recovery frames, but I don't think that's the right answer. EX Coin Toss I think should be plus, and I think his SOS 1 cancel is pretty well suited for baiting opponents into getting blocked, or canceling into overhead, command grab, or more pressure.

I use b33 coin shot to just get pressure by immediately run canceling to 21122 pressure. Over head makes them react from low b3 plus the coin leaves them standing for 21122. Some characters have specials to interrupt or they have to use armor between the coin and run21122. But it's all part of the mind games. B33 coin on block and then block if they try and interrupt the next time and punish them.

 

[wsj515]

I know what their options are, but the low reward part depends on what you go for. For example, the 3 low shots are hugely unsafe and on hit will only do 10% plus a knockdown, but it's there to make your opponent fear getting stuck in another mix up and wasting a bar. Also 3 low shots build a lot of meter on block, not worth them getting blocked most of the time, but could be useful in certain situations. But if you cancel into overhead, then in the corner we are looking at upwards of 30% plus oki and caltrops set up. You can also block an attempt to beat your SoS by canceling it, and more safely being able to get a full combo punish, and that would net you close to 30% anywhere, not just the corner. They block, you can command grab, which will take them out of pressure, but from what I've tested EX sand trap is still plus on hit, so you can always use that to get oki in the corner, extra damage, and to get the opponent off you and resume zoning midscreen. Also, if you utilize the 20% chip set up after, you can make opponent think you are going to go for it, then hit them with something else. If they try to jump, you SoS 2 them for a AA and a hard knock down. 4 is great for zoning, can break armor, is his safest option from SoS, and on hit has very good advantage. A fullscreen 4 hit in my lab time has always allowed me a free sand grenade throw after, forcing them to either delay wake up or block, wake up attacks can be blocked and will take the 9% from the grenade to boot. Yeah, compared to the rest of the cast, Gunslinger has to take a lot of risks, and yeah many of them don't net him full combos, but I still think the mind game is there to make SoS good if you utilize all of it's assets, and that's ultimately why I love this character, because that amount of thought has to go into him to make him work. But I was a crazy MK9 Jade player to the end, so take my word with a grain of salt lol.

I love gunslinger too, and I love that I have to think hard and use unorthodox shenanigans to make it work. At the end of the day though, most of his tech with sos is just really weak gimmicks. I think a lot of it works because so few people play gunslinger, and therefore even fewer people understand the matchup and gunslingers tools etc. When you ground an opponent in the corner, they really only need to decide between jumping or blocking. Anyone who knows the EB matchup knows that at that range, his only option is either a f1 string or 21122 if the EB tries to pressure on wakeup, so you just block high or even low poke with further reaching d4s. f12/3 are unsafe unless you use meter, because sand gust is super inconsistent on block, especially against the females. If you read low shots, command grab, sos1 baiting, you can very easily full combo punish with a jump. Trying to read a jump on wakeup and throwing out a sos2 is just asking to be blown up, and if you read the jump then why not just sand gust for a combo?

The stance only serves as a hindrance, as you would have all the same mindgames if each stance move was its own separate move.

Erron's variation-less plain old 21122 pressure is just so much safer and has much higher potential reward with meter (and gains a ton of meter) than any sos mindgames. Outside of your opponent not knowing the matchup, where they don't know they can take calculated risks that have significantly higher gain when they guess right then their low loss when they guess wrong, sos mindgames are kind of pointless unless used very conservatively. Even sos2, which is decent when used properly, doesn't trade well against most projectiles and has awful startup and recovery. Its just very very hard to rectify a variation dedicated to sos when its variation-less tools are better in almost every situation.

Erron as a whole is overrated imo so we are bound to see more nerfs, and it seems that NRS nerfs have been general to a character and not variation specific, which as we have already seen is awful for gunslinger. I just hope that if another Erron nerf comes, they are smart enough to throw gunslinger a bone. For the record, while a sound gloom and doom, I still love the character. I love marksman for its cancels and gunslinger for its swag, so if we were ever given a marksman-esque cancel for sos I would be in heaven.

 

[The Farmer]

I love gunslinger too, and I love that I have to think hard and use unorthodox shenanigans to make it work. At the end of the day though, most of his tech with sos is just really weak gimmicks. I think a lot of it works because so few people play gunslinger, and therefore even fewer people understand the matchup and gunslingers tools etc. When you ground an opponent in the corner, they really only need to decide between jumping or blocking. Anyone who knows the EB matchup knows that at that range, his only option is either a f1 string or 21122 if the EB tries to pressure on wakeup, so you just block high or even low poke with further reaching d4s. f12/3 are unsafe unless you use meter, because sand gust is super inconsistent on block, especially against the females. If you read low shots, command grab, sos1 baiting, you can very easily full combo punish with a jump. Trying to read a jump on wakeup and throwing out a sos2 is just asking to be blown up, and if you read the jump then why not just sand gust for a combo?

The stance only serves as a hindrance, as you would have all the same mindgames if each stance move was its own separate move.

Erron's variation-less plain old 21122 pressure is just so much safer and has much higher potential reward with meter (and gains a ton of meter) than any sos mindgames. Outside of your opponent not knowing the matchup, where they don't know they can take calculated risks that have significantly higher gain when they guess right then their low loss when they guess wrong, sos mindgames are kind of pointless unless used very conservatively. Even sos2, which is decent when used properly, doesn't trade well against most projectiles and has awful startup and recovery. Its just very very hard to rectify a variation dedicated to sos when its variation-less tools are better in almost every situation.

Erron as a whole is overrated imo so we are bound to see more nerfs, and it seems that NRS nerfs have been general to a character and not variation specific, which as we have already seen is awful for gunslinger. I just hope that if another Erron nerf comes, they are smart enough to throw gunslinger a bone. For the record, while a sound gloom and doom, I still love the character. I love marksman for its cancels and gunslinger for its swag, so if we were ever given a marksman-esque cancel for sos I would be in heaven.

I feel the same you really need to be fresh with your gimmicks and out think with gunslinger, the rewards aren't always there but when you break through the feeling is awesome.

 

[The Farmer]

I love gunslinger too, and I love that I have to think hard and use unorthodox shenanigans to make it work. At the end of the day though, most of his tech with sos is just really weak gimmicks. I think a lot of it works because so few people play gunslinger, and therefore even fewer people understand the matchup and gunslingers tools etc. When you ground an opponent in the corner, they really only need to decide between jumping or blocking. Anyone who knows the EB matchup knows that at that range, his only option is either a f1 string or 21122 if the EB tries to pressure on wakeup, so you just block high or even low poke with further reaching d4s. f12/3 are unsafe unless you use meter, because sand gust is super inconsistent on block, especially against the females. If you read low shots, command grab, sos1 baiting, you can very easily full combo punish with a jump. Trying to read a jump on wakeup and throwing out a sos2 is just asking to be blown up, and if you read the jump then why not just sand gust for a combo?

The stance only serves as a hindrance, as you would have all the same mindgames if each stance move was its own separate move.

Erron's variation-less plain old 21122 pressure is just so much safer and has much higher potential reward with meter (and gains a ton of meter) than any sos mindgames. Outside of your opponent not knowing the matchup, where they don't know they can take calculated risks that have significantly higher gain when they guess right then their low loss when they guess wrong, sos mindgames are kind of pointless unless used very conservatively. Even sos2, which is decent when used properly, doesn't trade well against most projectiles and has awful startup and recovery. Its just very very hard to rectify a variation dedicated to sos when its variation-less tools are better in almost every situation.

Erron as a whole is overrated imo so we are bound to see more nerfs, and it seems that NRS nerfs have been general to a character and not variation specific, which as we have already seen is awful for gunslinger. I just hope that if another Erron nerf comes, they are smart enough to throw gunslinger a bone. For the record, while a sound gloom and doom, I still love the character. I love marksman for its cancels and gunslinger for its swag, so if we were ever given a marksman-esque cancel for sos I would be in heaven.

I feel the same you really need to be fresh with your gimmicks and out think with gunslinger, the rewards aren't always there but when you break through the feeling is awesome.

 

[DarthVado]

I love gunslinger too, and I love that I have to think hard and use unorthodox shenanigans to make it work. At the end of the day though, most of his tech with sos is just really weak gimmicks. I think a lot of it works because so few people play gunslinger, and therefore even fewer people understand the matchup and gunslingers tools etc. When you ground an opponent in the corner, they really only need to decide between jumping or blocking. Anyone who knows the EB matchup knows that at that range, his only option is either a f1 string or 21122 if the EB tries to pressure on wakeup, so you just block high or even low poke with further reaching d4s. f12/3 are unsafe unless you use meter, because sand gust is super inconsistent on block, especially against the females. If you read low shots, command grab, sos1 baiting, you can very easily full combo punish with a jump. Trying to read a jump on wakeup and throwing out a sos2 is just asking to be blown up, and if you read the jump then why not just sand gust for a combo?

The stance only serves as a hindrance, as you would have all the same mindgames if each stance move was its own separate move.

Erron's variation-less plain old 21122 pressure is just so much safer and has much higher potential reward with meter (and gains a ton of meter) than any sos mindgames. Outside of your opponent not knowing the matchup, where they don't know they can take calculated risks that have significantly higher gain when they guess right then their low loss when they guess wrong, sos mindgames are kind of pointless unless used very conservatively. Even sos2, which is decent when used properly, doesn't trade well against most projectiles and has awful startup and recovery. Its just very very hard to rectify a variation dedicated to sos when its variation-less tools are better in almost every situation.

Erron as a whole is overrated imo so we are bound to see more nerfs, and it seems that NRS nerfs have been general to a character and not variation specific, which as we have already seen is awful for gunslinger. I just hope that if another Erron nerf comes, they are smart enough to throw gunslinger a bone. For the record, while a sound gloom and doom, I still love the character. I love marksman for its cancels and gunslinger for its swag, so if we were ever given a marksman-esque cancel for sos I would be in heaven.

Yeah, while I actually agree with most of the nerfs Erron got, in particular his command grab nerf, people single him out as a problem for no reason, while there's way dumber characters in the game. Sand gust should get a bigger hitbox, not only would that solve the wiffing on block issue and give Erron some safer options, but it'd also give him a not horrible anti-air option.

In terms of SoS2, in my experience, I've been able to use it on reaction at around the distance SoS4 gives you, it's fast enough that you can use it on reaction if you are already in the stance, so overall I think it's the better AA during SOS mind games.

 

[cambros22]

Yeah, while I actually agree with most of the nerfs Erron got, in particular his command grab nerf, people single him out as a problem for no reason, while there's way dumber characters in the game. Sand gust should get a bigger hitbox, not only would that solve the wiffing on block issue and give Erron some safer options, but it'd also give him a not horrible anti-air option.

In terms of SoS2, in my experience, I've been able to use it on reaction at around the distance SoS4 gives you, it's fast enough that you can use it on reaction if you are already in the stance, so overall I think it's the better AA during SOS mind games.

I dont know if it was posted already but sand gust can be used for midscreen and corner pressure that leads to combo on hit confirm.
F1 and F2 jail into sand gust so opponent is forced to take it on block. its -1 so you can down poke to throw them off their game and repeat.
It works on females as well. Midscreen leads into a run cancel 21122 finish.