Match-Up Discussion - Sun God Grandmaster...WTF

[I GOT HANDS]

Holy crap you are annoying

This^^^
GM players telling us how we should be using parry and the trolls calling us scrubs and to level it up and parry like the pros. That's their argument.

Not that it matters at all - but that's not a GM player. That's a Kung Lao player who plays against Madzins GM and Kotal, 2 characters that he's arguably the best at for both.

See, I don't think you really read or understood the posts because you think I'm being contradictory! Yes, at first, after being called scrub and told to level up because I'm saying how difficult parry is to use after being told we should use it in this matchup, I admitted to my mediocracy and thought that my parries weren't near Madzin's level. I feel like I'm good at them but I admitted to and said I miss about one in four parries and I get hell shit on for that and told to level up. Then after going back and watching Madzin's video, I found he has about the same success rate. So why are you arguing with me about that?

Ok, so you retract your earlier statements being made about you being unable to match the skill of pros, just because it no longer benefits you? You are flip flopping all around the place trying to grab on whatever you can to argue that this aspect of the matchup doesn't work, take a step back and improve. If you can land it 3/4 times you can land it 99 times out of 100 with practice. This game should be balanced around the highest level, not around the "mattnin is doing alright but not quite there " level.

You're an argumentative, misinformed, easily excitable guy @Qwark28. This reminds me of how you insisted your way was the only way to set up Sub Zero's throw break trap. You were wrong then, and there's a good chance you're wrong now. I'm sorry I can't help you see that, I'm over trying to help, and I'm sorry the Kotal community is being held back by the vibes you're putting out. If you think you're that credible and I'm not, that's fine. But SZ's b2 is 17 frames, not 16. How many other mistakes do you think you made?

For anyone else reading this; hit the lab yourselves, take what I said with a grain of salt, and use what I posted if you find it helpful.

Quark can be helpful at times, he's often a massive dick who argues not because he seems something wrong, but just because he sees away to make himself be the person who is "more right", it's a stupid superiority complex as far as I can tell, there was no need for it here either. However he isn't holding anyone back seeing as plenty of players have done a lot with Kotal in the tournament scene, and Quark is always willing to help people learn about Kotal. that's one of his positive aspects

Maybe you should listen to people who main the character you try to make so many points for instead of getting mad when you admit you don't play or know a lot about Kotal.

So far I've provided points and you've provided nothing but a defensive, emotional and insecure reply.

He literally is talking about a match up involving his main everything posted was about how Kotal works in relation to GM, just stop Quark you don't get a super mushroom today

 

[EntropicByDesign]

One thousand punches. <3.

What are SG kotal's other bad matchups? Not MUs that are a little annoying or slighlty skewed, but MUs where we are really fighting uphill, as the GM MU *appears* to be.

 

[mattnin]

Shinnok all variations is pretty difficult with notable mentions given to HQT Predator zoners, and Scorpion.

 

[Qwark28]

Holy crap you are annoying


Not that it matters at all - but that's not a GM player. That's a Kung Lao player who plays against Madzins GM and Kotal, 2 characters that he's arguably the best at for both.

Ok, so you retract your earlier statements being made about you being unable to match the skill of pros, just because it no longer benefits you? You are flip flopping all around the place trying to grab on whatever you can to argue that this aspect of the matchup doesn't work, take a step back and improve. If you can land it 3/4 times you can land it 99 times out of 100 with practice. This game should be balanced around the highest level, not around the "mattnin is doing alright but not quite there " level.


Quark can be helpful at times, he's often a massive dick who argues not because he seems something wrong, but just because he sees away to make himself be the person who is "more right", it's a stupid superiority complex as far as I can tell, there was no need for it here either. However he isn't holding anyone back seeing as plenty of players have done a lot with Kotal in the tournament scene, and Quark is always willing to help people learn about Kotal. that's one of his positive aspects


He literally is talking about a match up involving his main everything posted was about how Kotal works in relation to GM, just stop Quark you don't get a super mushroom today

He posted what Kotal can do in the matchup in his opinion and then admitted he doesn't know much about him and got mad when I corrected him. His main is SZ.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

So, Kotal can run up and block to destroy the clone?

GM isn't very meter reliant at all is it? That would mean he'd typically have meter available to escape 114 x whiff air grab in to b122 expizza loops..

It's a conundrum wrapped in a riddle having sex without protection with a brain teaser infected with a trick question.

 

[Qwark28]

So, Kotal can run up and block to destroy the clone?

GM isn't very meter reliant at all is it? That would mean he'd typically have meter available to escape 114 x whiff air grab in to b122 expizza loops..

It's a conundrum wrapped in a riddle having sex without protection with a brain teaser infected with a trick question.

You can escape that with a decent poke as well. IIRC D4 low profiles it anyway.

 

[GAV]

Question: Does this make you laugh or make you angry?

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Weeeeeellll poop.

I'd ask a GM main on PC to lab some with me, but I picked up Kotal a few days ago, and picked up MKX , essentially, not long before that, so I'm still figuring out wtf I'm doing.

 

[Enexemander]

This is pretty much how I feel after having read this entire thread:

 

[RM Truth]

Kotal does fine. Sun God probably only has a slight disadvantage. It's a very lifelead dependant MU.



EDIT: Also, fuck Kotal's J1.

 

[RM Ree]

So, Kotal can run up and block to destroy the clone?

GM isn't very meter reliant at all is it? That would mean he'd typically have meter available to escape 114 x whiff air grab in to b122 expizza loops..

It's a conundrum wrapped in a riddle having sex without protection with a brain teaser infected with a trick question.

Everyone can run up block to shatter clones. Some can just tap f, f, blk, blk and break it right after he cancels into it from a string. It takes some practice, but it's reliable, giving SZ minor + frames and forcing him to use lack luster pressure.

GM is not very meter reliant, no. Vs males however he has to spend a bar to freeze off a midscreen low. If meter is a prime concern, block high and make him burn it for barely 30%. Particularly skilled players can convert ~35% from lows, but such combos requires near frame perfect execution.

Does ex pizza go through other fireballs like ex ice blast does? I'd like to see moves with that property cut through clone in the future. Possible Kotal buffs like that would go a long way in this MU.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

GM is not very meter reliant, no. Vs males however he has to spend a bar to freeze off a midscreen low. If meter is a prime concern, block high and make him burn it for barely 30%. Particularly skilled players can convert ~35% from lows, but such combos requires near frame perfect execution.

Huh? What's so hard about the low combo?

 

[Hellbringer]

Don't you know how the Kotal forums work? Anyone who has a disagreeing opinion no matter how politely and genuinely worded is a "fucking troll"

I'm so glad I didn't main this character. Between this jackass and Qwark I feel sorry for Madzin

Thank god u dont play kotal. Your already posting way too much here for not even playing him. No1 wants your advice anyway.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Thank god u dont play kotal. Your already posting way too much here for not even playing him. No1 wants your advice anyway.

Another stinky attitude




You guys really need to work on your social skills in here

 

[RM Ree]

Huh? What's so hard about the low combo?

The newer b33 xx ex statue routes. Vs Kotal, they may be slightly easier since he's huge.

What's Kotals punish on SZ's b2 anyway? Can he get b122?

 

[ChaosTheory]

The newer b33 xx ex statue routes. Vs Kotal, they may be slightly easier since he's huge.

What's Kotals punish on SZ's b2 anyway? Can he get b122?

And f1,b2, I'm pretty sure. I think b1,2,2 is a lot easier.

 

[TheRealOnlyGoonie]

YOU ALL SUCK WITH KOTAL ANYWAY

 

[GAV]

Here's the matchup in a nutshell...

...and here's TYM in here...

 

[GAV]

Another stinky attitude




You guys really need to work on your social skills in here

Play Sun God for a week. Then, weigh back in.

 

[mattnin]

Everyone can run up block to shatter clones. Some can just tap f, f, blk, blk and break it right after he cancels into it from a string. It takes some practice, but it's reliable, giving SZ minor + frames and forcing him to use lack luster pressure.

You need to have a perfect read to do this is an actual matchup. This is only reliable in the lab. Plus failure means eating a full combo. It's just not worth it. You have to run right to where the clone is going to appear and then press block. Don't try this with a clone already out.

 

[RM Ree]

You're absolutely supposed to try this with clone already out, as soon as it comes out. Blocking extends your hurt box and crouch blocking extends it even further, making this tech possible.

There's an argument to be made about where Kotal should be in relation to clone (close crouching let's you low profile clone toss, but may get you thrown into clone/ mid range let's you parry clone toss but pushes Kotal closer to corner). If you're preference is being close, this tech should fit into the routine nicely.

MKX is an easy game execution-wise. This tech isn't asking a lot of a player relative to other fighters.

 

[mkl]

Part of me thinks that Blood God might be just as good as War God against Grandmaster. He can punish Sub for quite a few staple moves (namely b2) for just about half life with a bar (if no Totem is down when f1b2 hits) and can have Obsidian down at all times outside of combos so that GM's already shitty damage is even worse when he does get a hit. The only times it becomes a problem is when the GM has a life lead and is stubbornly remaining behind the clone as BG has no answer for it other than throw Obsidian down and wait for GM to fuck up. But when shit hits the fan, it only takes one hit for Blood God to dictate the pace of the match and Sub has to scramble around looking for many more hits to even up. Very slow paced MU but seemingly even for BG. In some ways I might even think this is advantage Blood God.

WG:GM 4.5:5.5
BG:GM 5:5 (maybe 6:4??)
SG:GM 3:7

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

Part of me thinks that Blood God might be just as good as War God against Grandmaster. He can punish Sub for quite a few staple moves (namely b2) for just about half life with a bar (if no Totem is down when f1b2 hits) and can have Obsidian down at all times outside of combos so that GM's already shitty damage is even worse when he does get a hit. The only times it becomes a problem is when the GM has a life lead and is stubbornly remaining behind the clone as BG has no answer for it other than throw Obsidian down and wait for GM to fuck up. But when shit hits the fan, it only takes one hit for Blood God to dictate the pace of the match and Sub has to scramble around looking for many more hits to even up. Very slow paced MU but seemingly even for BG. In some ways I might even think this is advantage Blood God.

WG:GM 4.5:5.5
BG:GM 5:5 (maybe 6:4??)
SG:GM 3:7

lol

 

[mkl]

lol

Try it for yourself man. Blood God leaves barely any room for GM to fuck up and Kotal himself can get away with a lot of crazy mistakes since a lot of times a full GM combo is going to be doing about 11% w/ huge meter gain for Kotal. When even the a basic 9 or 10 frame punish is going to net you 46% or better and GM is going to be doing 11% it's obviously not a bad matchup. Sub is only able to turtle behind the clone if he has the life lead which will be difficult for him to get easily outside of early pokes. He has a whole lot more to lose than you do when pressing buttons, and against GM that's huge. The knock is obviously he doesn't have an armored reversal to stop strings into clone. But him being down 50% on life is going to make that a null point since he's not going to want to be behind his clone in the first place. GM also has ways to bait this out and full combo the other two Kotal variations that can armor through so it's really not that tragic of a loss.

The reason why Sun God has trouble is because it's the most nightmarish Honda v. Guile sort of MU. Sun God will take normal damage, do less damage than BG on most hits that matter in the MU, and still has no way to fight the clone. With the recent patch it got slightly better since Sun God can buff his grab and convert it to meter if GM really does want to just build meter behind his clone and pick the best spots (please god don't even try to bring up sun ray). That's still not going to get GM to come at you since you having meter is rarely actually threatening to his gameplan. The Obsidian totem solves many of Sun God's issues because he can be more risky when dealing with the clone and GM's options. The armored command grab will rarely help in guaranteed ways and even when it hits at max charge, it's not a full combo by any stretch.

War God can deal with the clone somewhat alright but does the least damage of the three variations. Meanwhile GM can punish most sword attacks reliably. EX OSS is the best reversal, but against a clone in neutral it has problems. It's not a bad MU for WG, but I would easily pick another character that can actually handle the clone well instead of one that just sort-of can if you have a degree in geometry. But in a traditional sense, he is definitely the variation to go to against GM since he has the least trouble with GM's clone and that's what people are frustrated about when they talk about GM.

tl;dr Blood God is swag in a lot of MUs and y'all haters better recognize.

 

[Lanqu]

Sub does 50% no bar combo in the corner. And pulls out clone at the end. Even for blood god (25% + clone) that will be destructive. And btw totem will not last for the whole combo. So you will eat around 30% and got cloned again. Or you got knockdown, then Sub does b33-clone and just loop that logic

For me its:

SG - 1-9
BG - 1-9
WG - 4-6

WG is ok, but when you get cornered without meter you are again in 1-9 situation against skilled player. Ok, maybe 2-8. Mid screen its somewhere 5-5.