Match-Up Discussion - Outlaw GM Sub-Zero MU

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Hi i am an erron black main who plays all three variations and secondary's tremor.So, i fought UsedForGlue's sub online yesterday and he 7-0'd me.his d4 seemed to shut down most of my options (btw i switched to other characters after the first 1 or 2 matches with EB) and i wasn't able to do anything against clone and he was using f42 clone on block in the corner and f4 clone.So does anyone have any tips in this MU?

@DownfouralitY
@Pakman
@Groove Heaven
@SonicFox5000
@anyEBmain

 

[ismael4790]

Hi i am an erron black main who plays all three variations and secondary's tremor.So, i fought UsedForGlue's sub online yesterday and he 7-0'd me.his d4 seemed to shut down most of my options (btw i switched to other characters after the first 1 or 2 matches with EB) and i wasn't able to do anything against clone and he was using f42 clone on block in the corner and f4 clone.So does anyone have any tips in this MU?

I used to play only close combat characters, and good subs usually gave me problems. He forces you to play his game.
Then I learned Kenshi and now I force him to play mine

With Erron you are going to have a bad time, since your main damage has to come from up close...

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

I used to play only close combat characters, and good subs usually gave me problems. He forces you to play his game.
Then I learned Kenshi and now I force him to play mine

With Erron you are going to have a bad time, since your main damage has to come from up close...

I play actually every single character in the game lmao but i mostly use EB so yeah really hoping for good tips
Yeah you main fisticuffs and balanced don't you?

 

[ismael4790]

I play actually every single character in the game lmao but i mostly use EB so yeah really hoping for good tips
Yeah you main fisticuffs and balanced don't you?

Yes, those are my favourite characters

I also played Erron some time ago, and specially for Outlaw the GM Sub matchup looks really bad. The other two variations can do more in the distance, but I think sub is going to have the advantage in any case...Let's see if some Erron experts give you tactics to handle this matchup.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Yes, those are my favourite characters

I also played Erron some time ago, and specially for Outlaw the GM Sub matchup looks really bad. The other two variations can do more in the distance, but I think sub is going to have the advantage in any case...Let's see if some Erron experts give you tactics to handle this matchup.

Tbh i think Sonicfox has tips because he is god of both offline and online and of sll matchups

 

[Santa_Destroyer]

Depends on the variation.
Outlaw has the hardest time.
GS and MM are still hard but alt least you got good zoning.
the ones with a "*" are valid across all variations.

1.
Outlaw
To do

Good options imo are ex specials.
- *ex sandgranade has 2 hits and hits low. You can also do that from a fair distance away,
- *ex slides go through the clone and hit him when he tries to iceball.
- *you can also punish the clone toss with a regular slide on reaction. this way you also close in space.
- *When you see you reacted too late, use ex slide absorb the hit (15% I believe so still ouch!).
- *sand grenades, always throw sand grenades. Watch out for clone toss or ice ball.
If he has the clone up and you throw a grenade on reaction or on read, run in, jump pver the iceball, TOUCHDOWN full combo punish
- regular or ex sword "can" help. if you right in the clones face the regular sword will go through and hit sub atfer casting range.
- ex sword obviously eats every poke.

not to do

- sadly the awesome reversal sand toss will not help you here.
If you do the the ex sand toss the clone will break but sub will not be hit!

Gunslinger
To do

SOS! (stand off stance)
- Is probably the best tool but can also be your downfall.
If you mistime it, you will hit the clone and sub, but also eat an ice ball.
SOS4 has a 20 frame start up active: 202 revover: -173
You can see why this is not always the best option.
- up close SOS3 can also help since you fire 5 times in rapid succesion.
But if he jumps over you're fucked.
- if you've condition him to jump in over the clone you can punish with SOS2 and combo follow up, wich will also do massive corner carry.
- Moneyshot is also good for breaking the clone.

Marksman

Long shot is golden for clone toss punish. It comes out in 24 frames and will punish slide or clone toss.
Again be beware of the iceball. Subs usually do the clone then the iceball then the toss, so neutral duck the iceball and punish the clone toss.
- Unload is very risky because it takes forever and he can do his GM shinanigans. good move to break the clone.
I recommend to do this move only on wake up wich is risky besause he can slide to punish, but if he goes with the clone you're good.
- Lastly swingshot has a ver far reach so you are able to hit him behind the clone.

That is all I have, hope it helps .
Then again UsedForGlue is a top player.
So don't feel to bad

 

[Tweedy]

DWZ Falcon has eliminated Khaotic Acid twice in the ESL, who is a very good Sub Zero. I'm sure he has some advice. His name on here is @dwz_mk9 I think.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Depends on the variation.
Outlaw has the hardest time.
GS and MM are still hard but alt least you got good zoning.
the ones with a "*" are valid across all variations.

1.
Outlaw
To do

Good options imo are ex specials.
- *ex sandgranade has 2 hits and hits low. You can also do that from a fair distance away,
- *ex slides go through the clone and hit him when he tries to iceball.
- *you can also punish the clone toss with a regular slide on reaction. this way you also close in space.
- *When you see you reacted too late, use ex slide absorb the hit (15% I believe so still ouch!).
- *sand grenades, always throw sand grenades. Watch out for clone toss or ice ball.
If he has the clone up and you throw a grenade on reaction or on read, run in, jump pver the iceball, TOUCHDOWN full combo punish
- regular or ex sword "can" help. if you right in the clones face the regular sword will go through and hit sub atfer casting range.
- ex sword obviously eats every poke.

not to do

- sadly the awesome reversal sand toss will not help you here.
If you do the the ex sand toss the clone will break but sub will not be hit!

Gunslinger
To do

SOS! (stand off stance)
- Is probably the best tool but can also be your downfall.
If you mistime it, you will hit the clone and sub, but also eat an ice ball.
SOS4 has a 20 frame start up active: 202 revover: -173
You can see why this is not always the best option.
- up close SOS3 can also help since you fire 5 times in rapid succesion.
But if he jumps over you're fucked.
- if you've condition him to jump in over the clone you can punish with SOS2 and combo follow up, wich will also do massive corner carry.
- Moneyshot is also good for breaking the clone.

Marksman

Long shot is golden for clone toss punish. It comes out in 24 frames and will punish slide or clone toss.
Again be beware of the iceball. Subs usually do the clone then the iceball then the toss, so neutral duck the iceball and punish the clone toss.
- Unload is very risky because it takes forever and he can do his GM shinanigans. good move to break the clone.
I recommend to do this move only on wake up wich is risky besause he can slide to punish, but if he goes with the clone you're good.
- Lastly swingshot has a ver far reach so you are able to hit him behind the clone.

That is all I have, hope it helps .
Then again UsedForGlue is a top player.
So don't feel to bad

Yeah he straight up rekt me lmao.When im in the corner im just like fuck this shit im out,but thanks for the tips!

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

DWZ Falcon has eliminated Khaotic Acid twice in the ESL, who is a very good Sub Zero. I'm sure he has some advice. His name on here is @dwz_mk9 I think.

Btw does anyone know when's NEC?

 

[Santa_Destroyer]

Yeah he straight up rekt me lmao.When im in the corner im just like fuck this shit im out,but thanks for the tips!

Yeah shit MU for EB cuz hes so rushdown and pressure orientated.
You're welcome.

 

[dwz_mk9]

Hell fellow EB main and thanks Tweedy for tagging me in it. For me, the whole matchup is based on the corner, whoever gets the corner and keeps the opponent locked down the best usually wins. So your goal as an EB player is to not get cornered because GM Sub's corner game is dangerous in the right hands. There are a few basic things you can do in this matchup. For one, if the Sub has a clone full screen and throws it, you can slide on reaction, though it takes time to learn, and go in for some pressure. Or you can back dash it but I rarely do it. Another thing full screen is sand grenade trades with the ice ball. Don't just sit back and throw sand grenades all day because a good player will catch onto that quickly. Do them sparingly to rid yourself of the clone from time to time. If the GM Sub does pretty much any normal into regular ice clone, not ex, you can do reversal ex slide to switch positions in the corner. So be ready for that. Also, his B2 and B3 3 D4 strings are both full combo punishable by 21122 Sand. Learn on getting those punishes in the lab. So, which variation would I recommend? Honestly, I think Outlaw is the variation to go against GM Sub. I thought Gunslinger or Marksman would be the way to go because of the zoning but for me Outlaw works because he has an easier time in the corner and he has one thing that the other variations don't... His NJP. It has been nerfed but it's still one of he best in the game! And when I'm cornered against GM Sub, it has been my saving grace. But you can't abuse it. You have to make a read on whether or not he's going to come in right away because I see a lot of Subs corner me with the clone and then wait to bait out something ex so they can punish me for it. If they blindly rush in for a normal or throw they can eat an NJP and now they're in the corner if you run under. Watch Sonic Fox's match in the grand finals of ECT and you'll see what I mean. Watching that really helped me with the matchup in general. However if they see you're doing an NJP, they can trip guard you and you're back to square one. The whole basis of this matchup is not getting cornered and really you just have to be ready for any little slip up the Sub player will give you and take full advantage of. If you're cornered you have to make the right read and be ready for any mistake. This is one matchup where you can't coast by with F1, 3 ex sand. You have to be very weary of the neutral and can't be too impatient. If you are, you feel death's cold embrace. Hope this helped and if you have anymore questions, feel free to ask!

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Hell fellow EB main and thanks Tweedy for tagging me in it. For me, the whole matchup is based on the corner, whoever gets the corner and keeps the opponent locked down the best usually wins. So your goal as an EB player is to not get cornered because GM Sub's corner game is dangerous in the right hands. There are a few basic things you can do in this matchup. For one, if the Sub has a clone full screen and throws it, you can slide on reaction, though it takes time to learn, and go in for some pressure. Or you can back dash it but I rarely do it. Another thing full screen is sand grenade trades with the ice ball. Don't just sit back and throw sand grenades all day because a good player will catch onto that quickly. Do them sparingly to rid yourself of the clone from time to time. If the GM Sub does pretty much any normal into regular ice clone, not ex, you can do reversal ex slide to switch positions in the corner. So be ready for that. Also, his B2 and B3 3 D4 strings are both full combo punishable by 21122 Sand. Learn on getting those punishes in the lab. So, which variation would I recommend? Honestly, I think Outlaw is the variation to go against GM Sub. I thought Gunslinger or Marksman would be the way to go because of the zoning but for me Outlaw works because he has an easier time in the corner and he has one thing that the other variations don't... His NJP. It has been nerfed but it's still one of he best in the game! And when I'm cornered against GM Sub, it has been my saving grace. But you can't abuse it. You have to make a read on whether or not he's going to come in right away because I see a lot of Subs corner me with the clone and then wait to bait out something ex so they can punish me for it. If they blindly rush in for a normal or throw they can eat an NJP and now they're in the corner if you run under. Watch Sonic Fox's match in the grand finals of ECT and you'll see what I mean. Watching that really helped me with the matchup in general. However if they see you're doing an NJP, they can trip guard you and you're back to square one. The whole basis of this matchup is not getting cornered and really you just have to be ready for any little slip up the Sub player will give you and take full advantage of. If you're cornered you have to make the right read and be ready for any mistake. This is one matchup where you can't coast by with F1, 3 ex sand. You have to be very weary of the neutral and can't be too impatient. If you are, you feel death's cold embrace. Hope this helped and if you have anymore questions, feel free to ask!

Btw whenever he baited a reversal he always crossover Jip.By which i mean he also mostly used clone ice balls and when ever i tried to do something he always crossovers and full combo punished

 

[dwz_mk9]

Btw whenever he baited a reversal he always crossover Jip.By which i mean he also mostly used clone ice balls and when ever i tried to do something he always crossovers and full combo punished

Hmmmm... if I'm picturing what you're telling me correctly, then he read you very well. You have to use those ex moves when your opponent is not expecting them and when you think they'll work. For example I play Kung Lao on the side. He has one of the best armored reversals with his ex spin. But I can't just throw that out there every time I get a bar. By the way you described what he did is he just read your ex moves every time which goes back to being patient in the neutral.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Hmmmm... if I'm picturing what you're telling me correctly, then he read you very well. You have to use those ex moves when you're opponent is not expecting them and when you think they'll work. For example I play Kung Lao on the side. He has one of the best armored reversals with his ex spin. But I can't just throw that out there every time I get a bar. By the way you described what he did is he just read your ex moves every time which goes back to being patient in the neutral.

Although he read me a lot but......Ok I'll try to kinda explain my question in a more easier to understand way if that makes any sense what so ever......When ever i got up close to him he either shut down my options with his d4 ,cross over jump in punched or if i tried to jump on a read on his d4 he always went for the clone which is basically just reads and 21122 has the active frames on whiffing of a freaking brainless chicken which just got his head cut off.
And he always full combo punished me with cross over jip whenever i went for a 21122

 

[Santa_Destroyer]

Hell fellow EB main and thanks Tweedy for tagging me in it. For me, the whole matchup is based on the corner, whoever gets the corner and keeps the opponent locked down the best usually wins. So your goal as an EB player is to not get cornered because GM Sub's corner game is dangerous in the right hands. There are a few basic things you can do in this matchup. For one, if the Sub has a clone full screen and throws it, you can slide on reaction, though it takes time to learn, and go in for some pressure. Or you can back dash it but I rarely do it. Another thing full screen is sand grenade trades with the ice ball. Don't just sit back and throw sand grenades all day because a good player will catch onto that quickly. Do them sparingly to rid yourself of the clone from time to time. If the GM Sub does pretty much any normal into regular ice clone, not ex, you can do reversal ex slide to switch positions in the corner. So be ready for that. Also, his B2 and B3 3 D4 strings are both full combo punishable by 21122 Sand. Learn on getting those punishes in the lab. So, which variation would I recommend? Honestly, I think Outlaw is the variation to go against GM Sub. I thought Gunslinger or Marksman would be the way to go because of the zoning but for me Outlaw works because he has an easier time in the corner and he has one thing that the other variations don't... His NJP. It has been nerfed but it's still one of he best in the game! And when I'm cornered against GM Sub, it has been my saving grace. But you can't abuse it. You have to make a read on whether or not he's going to come in right away because I see a lot of Subs corner me with the clone and then wait to bait out something ex so they can punish me for it. If they blindly rush in for a normal or throw they can eat an NJP and now they're in the corner if you run under. Watch Sonic Fox's match in the grand finals of ECT and you'll see what I mean. Watching that really helped me with the matchup in general. However if they see you're doing an NJP, they can trip guard you and you're back to square one. The whole basis of this matchup is not getting cornered and really you just have to be ready for any little slip up the Sub player will give you and take full advantage of. If you're cornered you have to make the right read and be ready for any mistake. This is one matchup where you can't coast by with F1, 3 ex sand. You have to be very weary of the neutral and can't be too impatient. If you are, you feel death's cold embrace. Hope this helped and if you have anymore questions, feel free to ask!

Very interesting insight mate.
I can see where you coming from.
Njp might be a viable stratagy.
I was completly against outlaw before I read your post haha.
The sonicfox vs DJT was a good tip too.
Thx for joining the conversation.

One more question though, can you tell me some good AA?

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Btw the ect finals helped me out
Im gonna try and see if i can deal with sub now

 

[dwz_mk9]

Very interesting insight mate.
I can see where you coming from.
Njp might be a viable stratagy.
I was completly against outlaw before I read your post haha.
The sonicfox vs DJT was a good tip too.
Thx for joining the conversation.

One more question though, can you tell me some good AA?

Well, anti-airs in MKX in general are a joke unless you're Tempest Lao. But anti-airs for Erron Black somewhat vary between the variation. Universally his standing 1, standing 2, back 2, and uppercut are pretty decent. Outlaw's ex tarkatan stab works well as one. Gunslinger's SOS 2 works well as one but it's more of a read than a reaction. Marksman's DB1 can kind of be one, but I wouldn't rely on it that much. Those are what work for me anyways.

 

[dwz_mk9]

Btw the ect finals helped me out
Im gonna try and see if i can deal with sub now

Yeah, it really helped me in the matchup as well. And for the clarification in the earlier message, maybe it would help if you didn't just play aggressive all the time because that's what it sounds like you were trying to do and you can't exactly do that against a character that can put a giant body of ice on the screen at any given time.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Yeah, it really helped me in the matchup as well. And for the clarification in the earlier message, maybe it would help if you didn't just play aggressive all the time because that's what it sounds like you were trying to do and you can't exactly do that against a character that can put a giant body of ice on the screen at any given time.

Yeah i kinda just try to mostly rush down my opponents but if I'm playing against a character like broke chi i stay patient and try to find ways to get in.....But most of my problems were caused by his d4 and his jip

 

[M.D.]

I'm sorry but you can't beat GM unless you counterpick.
Tough, but that's how it is.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

I'm sorry but you can't beat GM unless you counterpick.
Tough, but that's how it is.

Sorry. But i don't believe it.....Even though that ice clone is really annoying

 

[Adagost]

Don't listen to MD he's a passionate gm hater. He should hate nrs though for designing sz around one variation.

Anyways, this matchup is really tough, klone shuts down most of outlaws options and once you're cornered and the sz is good it's gg. Yes you can ex slide through the klone, but not if the sz player knows what he is doing (spacing and f4 x iceklone). Sand granade for zoning is ok, but only when you're fullscreen, it's just not worth the risk of eating a iceball and getting cornered. To sum it up, this matchup with HQT and maybe df lui kang are some of the worst i came across with outlaw until now. But they're not unwinable, in the corner everything is possible

Discuss

 

[ienjoywinning]

I normally go gunslinger , personally i think gm vs gunslinger is 5-5 what you want to do is remain full screen aslong as you could, sos 4 goes through clone and hits sub , use this carefully because he could time it so it trades with ice ball bf3 is nice but its recovery is fucking awful , if i read you're going to do bf3 i could run and jump in and full combo punished , if well timed. Gunslinger is easily your best option for gm

 

[Santa_Destroyer]

Btw you can blow up the clone with caltrops.
You "just" need to hurt sub.